Please explain to me why eliminating APs make business sense for Disney? And the business case for Floridians to have a discounted AP?

[RoseGold]

Listen to what they actually said. The unfavorable mix impacting earnings. They want full freight on peak days. Sure, they'll throw Floridians a bone on non-peak weekdays, but they currently have the demand to sell out at full price, at least for peak days.

I don't see the Incredipass ever returning, or being incredibly expensive.

A lever that Disney could have pulled was price, and surprisingly, they haven't done that yet.

 

[Bearval]

I've read many of the threads on here about APs. My family has never had them because we're any every other year kind of WDW family. I've always thought I'd need to go at least twice just to break even on park tickets vs. APs, but I feel like we spend a fortune while we're there. Disney certainly makes more off of us in food and drink than they do with out park tickets. It seems to me, even as a resale DVC member, they'd want me coming more often. I just don't get why they stoppped selling them?

Second question, if they're trying to maximize profits per guest per visit (seems to be their stated goal), then why continue to offer Florida resident passes? These seem like the group most likely able to spend the least per visit. (I know FL residents spend a lot, please don't be offended and I'm not asking for a discussion on this point which is why I said "able to spend less")

It seems to me the most profitable move would be to offer the AP at a price point that brought out-of-state travelers back two or three times per year for several days at a time compared to Floridians' weekly or monthly visits for a few hours?

What am I missing here?

Unfortunately Disney most likely has the data to show they will be much more profitable with out offering APs. They are having no trouble filling up the parks right now with out them to guests who spend much more per person per trip. I would be shocked if they bring them back.

 

[crisi]

Many believe this to be true, but I am not so sure. I have not been able to find any legitimate source for this statement. To the best of my knowledge, it is not true.

IMO, Disney offers Florida resident discounts for the same reason they offer any discount - to encourage purchase of something that would otherwise go unpurchased. IOW, to increase their revenue. Currently, Disney is filling the parks without discounting tickets beyond what they already do.

I was told it was true, back in the 1980s, when I took a college course on Disney. I don't think the professor gave a source, but college professors are usually pretty good at sourcing, and then I worked in Corporate Tax after graduation and this sort of deal was REALLY common. I tend to believe it was true years and years and years ago. And it makes sense for Disney to want to keep Florida residents "on their side." But given the current conflict between Disney and the state of Florida, I doubt Disney is getting much from the State, nor do I think they feel they can depend on much from the State. Those sorts of tax deals between the state and a corporation aren't in perpetuity - so although I believe it was there probably for the first ten or twenty years (which would have included when I took the class) of WDW, I doubt its been in place for several decades.

 

[CarolMN]

I am TOTALLY with you - this makes no fiscal sense in their currently stated objectives of getting "higher spending" guests into the parks. Coming from out of State, I am going to spend $$$ on meals, merch etc. Without an AP, I am doing this once per year. With an AP, I would be doing this MORE than once a year so my spend per guest factor isat they don:T want you multiplied. They simply don't want this revenue I guess...

You and some others may spend more, but according to their data, AS A WHOLE, passholders spend less per person than those who purchase MYW tickets.

They are filling the parks without selling new annual passes. It's not that they don't want your $$; it's that they can get more $$ if the spot you take up in the parks is filled by a guest who bought a MYW ticket.

 

[Brian Noble]

I could come up with a plausible argument for the current strategy--and I have in the past.

But, in the immortal words of The Rock: It doesn't matter. Disney's track record on managing the business side of the business isn't entirely spotless, but it is very very good. They have reasons for doing what they are doing, and they seem to be happy with how it is working out. APs will be back when they are back.

 

[Brian Noble]

I don't think the professor gave a source, but college professors are usually pretty good at sourcing

I'm a college professor, and I can tell you that one of the best ways to describe the species is:

"Sometimes wrong, but never in doubt."

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

I've read many of the threads on here about APs. ... I just don't get why they stopped selling them?

The short answer to why they stopped selling APs at WDW is because they put a cap on the number they would distribute and by November 21, 2021, they sold out.

Here's a quote from Bob Chapek, Disney CEO, to The Hollywood Reported at the D23 on September 10, 2022, talking about the cap on APs distributed.

"We love all our fans equally. We love the superfans, obviously. But we also like the fans that don’t have the same expression of their fandom. We want to make sure that our superfans who love to come with annual passes and use [the parks] as their personal playground — we love that. We celebrate that. ... We didn’t have a reservation system and we didn’t control the number of annual passes we distributed and frankly, the annual pass as a value was so great that people were literally coming all the time and the accessibility of the park was unlimited to them ... . ... What we will not bend on is giving somebody a less than stellar experience in the parks because we jammed too many people in there. If we’re going to have that foundational rule, you have to start balancing who you let in. … "[Emphasis added.] (Chapek interview with the Hollywood Reporter, 9-10-22)​

When people do not renew, their passes go back into Disney inventory. Disney will not open new annual pass sales until they have enough in inventory to sustain new sales for a reasonable period of time. That's the short answer.

The reason they put a cap on the number of APs distributed is to get a better attendance mix so high profit day ticket guests would have opportunities to come and the number of passholders was limited. When the California lawsuit was filed, Disney had a choice to make. Either allow unlimited sales of APs and throttle the number of passholders in the parks through the park reservation system -- deliberately making too few reservations available in the passholder bucket or limit the number of passholders by capping the number of APs distributed. Their lawyers probably advised them to make the second choice. So, just a week or so after the California lawsuit was filed, sales of APs was halted.

People complained the parks in 2019 were too crowded, so Disney lowered the cap from the 2019 figures by 17%. Mr. Chapek has stated they will not bend on the park attendance cap. He says it gives the guests a better experience and they spend more money with the park attendance caps being lower.

Historically in 2019, the passholder component of the crowd was 34%. Also, historically, they did not cap the number of annual passes distributed; now they do. Seventeen percent crowd reduction coincidentally matches 1/2 of the number of passholders attending in 2019. It appears the 17% reduction in crowd capacity likely came entirely (or almost entirely) from the simultaneous reduction and cap on the number of AP sales. Logically, it appears to be a reasonable assumption that Disney cut the number of annual passes distributed in half and capped it there.

If they cannot use park reservations alone to control the number of passholders in the parks, they can only do so by controlling the number of APs distributed.

Since it is unlikely they will raise the cap on the number of annual passes distributed, the only possible replenishment is when current passholders do not renew. Disney will not re-open new sales of annual passes until they have sufficient numbers to sustain new sales for a reasonable sales period. From my number crunching of the number of park guests in 2019 and passholder mix then, it appears the current number of passholders at WDW is about 500,000. They may have that many waiting for new sales of APs to resume. Disney also has access to data showing how many annual passes they sold per day when sales were open from September 8, 2021 to November 21, 2021. They will not re-open new sales until they have enough inventory to sustain sales for a reasonable period of time. Apparently they don't have enough yet, but we do not know how close they are.

As to your second question, Disney continues to sell a small number of Pixie passes with heavy block-out dates to Florida residents. The number is probably statistically insignificant. It is a weekday pass that also blocks all holidays and works like a "space available" pass to help fill the time periods with the lowest attendance. It probably is also a "good will" pass for cast member families, locals who host family who are ticketed guests, contractors who contract with Disney, etc. It may also be a social impact mitigation for a development permit; like an environmental quality impact requirement for land use development. In any event, the sales of Pixie passes has a greater benefit for Disney than not selling them at this time.

 

[jimim]

There is the public statement by Chapek (the "family from Denver" story lol). But he has also said (non-publicly, I think) that if hotels still fill up with people still buying park tickets, they do not have a reason to sell APs. Friend works in corporate.

No comment on the Floridian APs. I assume that's partially to do with maintaining a good relationship with the local community, and a safety cushion (remember when travel was frowned upon/people were hesitant to travel?), among other things.

those poor kids from Denver. . . I still feel for them. I hope their parents can make it up to them somehow or someway!

 

[Bearval]

I've read many of the threads on here about APs. My family has never had them because we're any every other year kind of WDW family. I've always thought I'd need to go at least twice just to break even on park tickets vs. APs, but I feel like we spend a fortune while we're there. Disney certainly makes more off of us in food and drink than they do with out park tickets. It seems to me, even as a resale DVC member, they'd want me coming more often. I just don't get why they stoppped selling them?

Second question, if they're trying to maximize profits per guest per visit (seems to be their stated goal), then why continue to offer Florida resident passes? These seem like the group most likely able to spend the least per visit. (I know FL residents spend a lot, please don't be offended and I'm not asking for a discussion on this point which is why I said "able to spend less")

It seems to me the most profitable move would be to offer the AP at a price point that brought out-of-state travelers back two or three times per year for several days at a time compared to Floridians' weekly or monthly visits for a few hours?

What am I missing here?

I can see them ending AP's and replacing them with like 20 multiple day tickets good for one year with blackout days. The price will be the same as an annual pass but cheaper that buying multiple 4 or 5 day tickets.

 

[Sandisw]

I can see them ending AP's and replacing them with like 20 multiple day tickets good for one year with blackout days. The price will be the same as an annual pass but cheaper that buying multiple 4 or 5 day tickets.

I think a product like this would work perfectly for me..and I suspect a lot of DVC owners

 

[DL1WDW2]

That description is similar to just selling the Pixie Pass to DVC .
I am more worried about the answer that suggested an updated pass that totally blocks out the holidays . Probably will cost more too.

 

[BaybeeYoda]

Even more of a reason to sell to out of staters who are likely to book a multi day hotel stay months in advance rather than locals that plan a few days in advance. As Sandisw stated, they are trying to have a more favorable (higher spenders) attendance mix at the parks. The lawsuits are brought by locals who look a week out and see no APs Park Passes available but passes available for hotel and non-AP guests.

Agree!!!

I read somewhere that Disney is obligated by contract with the state to provide discounted admission??

 

[CarolMN]

​

Agree!!!

I read somewhere that Disney is obligated by contract with the state to provide discounted admission??

May have been true in the past. AFAIK, it is not true now. I have looked, but am unable to find any legitimate source supporting this statement..

 

[Leight19]

For me I think there’s a straightforward economic reason to explain why no ap outside of Florida while still offering ap to Florida. I think for most days disney is not actually hitting capacity limits but are hitting limits they set once staffing is set to better distribute guests across parks. I come to this conclusion from general impression that “sold out” days seem to vary widely in their effective crowd size (or at least did when I tracked ~4months ago). From this assessment, I don’t believe limiting ap sales has anything to do with blocking ap for more expensive day ticket guests to come in their place since they have capacity to accommodate both.

Instead what I think is happening is Disney has assessed some ap holders will buy multiple sets of tickets since they can’t get ap and this extra revenue offsets any potential revenue lost from guests who travel less since no ap. Since Florida locals visit Disney differently the same math does not hold up for them and Disney has assessed selling the pixie passes generates the most money from that crowd. It also has the benefit of only allowing them to come the lowest crowd days further diminishing any capacity concerns for days where it actually would matter.

 

[hglenn]

I think Disney executives are currently on WDW property but truly wonder if they are “ staying “ on property Haha. And taking the busses and walking the parking lots without the tram service!
Hope they can get a dining reservation .

Or a ride through Genie+

 

[hglenn]

I think a product like this would work perfectly for me..and I suspect a lot of DVC owners

I've been saying the same thing! They need to offer something to DVC at a minimum. I've got 4 trips planned for next year and am only going to parks on one of them. I'm not paying single-day ticket prices. I'll just enjoy all the resorts have to offer and order food from Amazon. I assure you that we would spend ample money in the parks but I refuse to pay those rates multiple trips.

ETA: A 20-day pass that's good for 1 year after first use would be awesome. Even if it was only 10 days. Up-charge to add PH.

 

[kilik64]

I've been saying the same thing! They need to offer something to DVC at a minimum. I've got 4 trips planned for next year and am only going to parks on one of them. I'm not paying single-day ticket prices. I'll just enjoy all the resorts have to offer and order food from Amazon. I assure you that we would spend ample money in the parks but I refuse to pay those rates multiple trips.

ETA: A 20-day pass that's good for 1 year after first use would be awesome. Even if it was only 10 days. Up-charge to add PH.

Why do they have to offer DVC something?

They don't need you in the parks to help the bottom line. At least not right now.

I think prior poster hit it earlier, until you see a drop in park attendance, nothing is going to change anytime soon regarding park cost. If/when the attendance drops after the 50th and "revenge" travel subsides and they need to get more feet through the gates, they will do something to get folks going, whether thats APs or other kind of ticket deals.

 

[zumfelde]

I think they should only offer an AP to DVC members. Most of them do more than one trip per year and also might increase DVC sales. Without the AP option for DVC members some probably have sold or will be.

 

[jo-jo]

I've been saying the same thing! They need to offer something to DVC at a minimum. I've got 4 trips planned for next year and am only going to parks on one of them. I'm not paying single-day ticket prices. I'll just enjoy all the resorts have to offer and order food from Amazon. I assure you that we would spend ample money in the parks but I refuse to pay those rates multiple trips.

ETA: A 20-day pass that's good for 1 year after first use would be awesome. Even if it was only 10 days. Up-charge to add PH.

I think is 30 day ticket would be awesome and more than enough for most people, but those that have over a thousand points and do a lot of 4 day trips for different seasons or events, they need the days.

I'm not one of those people with gobs of points, but a one size fits all ticket would be great.

But include PH. One of the joys of an AP is popping into a park just for an hour or two. Go to MK during the day , but head into Epcot for dinner at France.

But if it's a rest day, I'd hesitate to use a park day just for a dinner. Unless of course the clock was running out. Use them or lose them.

 

[DizneyFamof4]

We live in Florida and the Florida APs were good when the break even mark was 8 days and I believe the last time I checked it was something like 14+ days and the latest has a lot more black out dates. For people that live in Central FL that would work, but for families like mine that are a 7 hour drive away, not so much. Our past trips, we always stayed onsite and inside the bubble, so that included eating all meals at a Disney QS or TS. We always let our DDs buy a souvenir or 2 on every trip. We had APs for 16 straight years and gave them up a couple of years ago, because it was no longer worth it to us.