Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

[LaidBackDad]

Table service with character meal. About 2 other table service locations serving specialty items. Child care center. Room service. On demand valet parking.

And CBR has the best mod pool, but it's still not even close to stormalong. And for the money, I'd rather pay CBR prices, for the record vs what we paid for YC. Only because we don't use all the amenities that you pay extra for.

We are nearly on the same page. I'm just saying those amenities you point out are missing from CBR are easy to add to the new tower. I'm saying, all or at least most of those along with the park access are part of the marketing angle for the new deluxe DVC tower at CRB. As you point out those amenities are pretty much standard for any DVC so there is no more cost involved than every other DVC on property. CBR will just be brought up to every other resort at WDW which has such close proximity to a park.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

... again, I couldn't argue in favor of my point of view any more eloquently. I'm just not sure how it helps your perspective. WL is very nice and has wonderful amenities and should be a deluxe; but it charges much less than the monorail resorts. Why, because of it's location. CBR has a better location than WL does. CBR will charge much higher rates than it currently does when it has better access.

We have already established that there is no real logistical or operational issue that prevents CBR from having easy park access. Just because it hurts your argument doesn't make it true.

Wilderness was built to be priced as a moderate...however they liked the concept well enough that the reworked rhe plans and added more amenities to make it a "cheaper" deluxe instead. That's why it's still "cheaper"...not because of location.

And yet...they still have been "too busy" to reclassify Caribbean as "deluxe" and charge $350 a night...what are they thinking?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

True, but the sales pitch wouldn't be hard to make if they made it vs cash rates at the new resort I don't think.

I get this wouldn't be the same as it works at Poly or GF, etc, but I still think it would work.

What "new resort"?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It will take a whole lot more than rebranding. Specifically, 30 bulldozers and an entire rebuild of the whole thing. Including a stormalongbay 2.

I've stayed at YC and CBR. YC was almost double. But they have double the amenities, not even factoring in park access. I think you keep missing that part. It's not the park access, it's all the other stuff.

It's like saying Motel 6 is just a rebrand away from being a Hilton....

 

[Sweettears]

They can put all of the lipstick they want on CBR and it's still not close to YC for me. However YC has priced me out of consideration unless I get some amazing discount. On the other hand an upgraded CBR room with a view and a decent chair to sit in I'm willing to call it home for a price point between mod and deluxe. I'll take the bus or an uber to the parks if needed.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

They can put all of the lipstick they want on CBR and it's still not close to YC for me. However YC has priced me out of consideration unless I get some amazing discount. On the other hand an upgraded CBR room with a view and a decent chair to sit in I'm willing to call it home for a price point between mod and deluxe. I'll take the bus or an uber to the parks if needed.

...and that stance is 100% reasonable.

The question is: are you interested in buying a timeshare contract for a minimum $25,000 upfront investment for it?

 

[skier_pete]

@TheMaxRebo @Madonna3 I'm with y'all. I think moderate suites make the MOST sense. As I said earlier, I believe families of 5 and 6 are really underserved by Disney.

I'm curious, @lockedoutlogic, how does it not fit their current financial goals? Because they don't recoup the construction and maintenance costs by selling it as DVC? ETA: Although it looks like you may be leaning more in this direction now...

I've listed this before -but two thing that show moderate suites is unlikely:
Since 2001 - 8 DVC resorts, 1 hotel
Their taking out six moderate buildings (around 600 rooms) to replace with moderate rooms? Makes zero sense. If it was just for moderate pricing - they'd take the old buildings, take out a few walls, and turn them into moderate suites at double the price. You don't go to that expense to make the same thing.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I've listed this before -but two thing that show moderate suites is unlikely:
Since 2001 - 8 DVC resorts, 1 hotel
Their taking out six moderate buildings (around 600 rooms) to replace with moderate rooms? Makes zero sense. If it was just for moderate pricing - they'd take the old buildings, take out a few walls, and turn them into moderate suites at double the price. You don't go to that expense to make the same thing.

Unless the tower gives you 2-3 times as many rooms in the same footprint and lets you charge more per night due to the view (not all the way up to selective XL rates but more than current) and reduce expenses due to housekeeping covering less land, etc

 

[Sweettears]

I've listed this before -but two thing that show moderate suites is unlikely:
Since 2001 - 8 DVC resorts, 1 hotel
Their taking out six moderate buildings (around 600 rooms) to replace with moderate rooms? Makes zero sense. If it was just for moderate pricing - they'd take the old buildings, take out a few walls, and turn them into moderate suites at double the price. You don't go to that expense to make the same thing.

My contention is that a hotel property would only make sense at a higher price point than the current mod pricing. Building a tower distinguishes this property from the rest of CBR and assuming additional amenities could justify a higher price. This would certainly work in my mind if the rooms were larger with a view.

 

[mab2012]

Alright, I'm just going to throw this out there even though I'm sure lot's of people will deny it and possibly be offended (I assure you, no offence is intended); but I think this issue may be contributing to some of the different perspectives people have. It's funny @lockedoutlogic mentioned that marketing effects how hotels are priced. I couldn't agree more, marketing plays a huge role in the price of a hotel. Disney is really good at marketing, the DDP is a perfect example but that is a topic for another thread entirely. I would suggest that there are no such things as value, moderate and deluxe hotels at WDW. That whole concept is nothing but a marketing ploy that is designed to make it easier for guest to pick a hotel based on the amenities desired by a guest. I pointed out earlier Disney has no defined criteria for what makes 1 hotel value and what makes it deluxe. My friend @lockedoulogic provided a rough list of characteristics for each category but there is crossover and differences for many hotels. People keep getting hung up on the fact that CBR is classified by the marketing department as a moderate hotel. You will get no argument from me that as CBR stands right now, it deserves that designation. CBR has the stigma of being a lessor quality hotel. The problem is, it's not really that far off as the article / review above pointed out. Except for the transportation / park access issue CBR would score much higher. Give CBR a few more amenities and voila, CBR is at or near the same quality as poly for a 1/3 the price. It's silly to believe the Disney suits or the marketing department would stand for that. Hence, you now have a deluxe DVC tower going into CBR.

I don't blame people for being brainwashed by the marketing department, that's their job. CBR is what it is right now. Just be prepared for the marketing team to crank it up a notch as it re-brands CBR as the new deluxe version with easy park access. People will have a hard time adjusting to the new pitch but sooner or later CBR will lose it's inferior label and it will soon be more popular that YC/BC/BW area.

But this whole "they could easily turn CBR into a deluxe resort" argument assumes that Disney even wants another large deluxe resort.

Let's just assume that upscaling the whole resort is both logistically and financially reasonable. I'm not sure it is, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume that. The problem is that the market for $600/night rooms is limited. As is the market for $350/night rooms. Disney is already having trouble filling their deluxe resorts; thus the conversion to DVC. Why would they go to the trouble and expense of upscaling another resort when they're struggling at their high end to start with?

Will people pay more for location? Sure. But there's only so many people who are both willing and able to pay those kind of prices. So if they start charging significantly more at CBR, where are those people going to come from? Do we believe that those currently staying in the values and moderates will suddenly increase their vacation budgets? Or are you just going to be drawing people away from the existing high-end resorts?

The moderate and value accommodations don't exist because Disney couldn't have built nicer resorts in better locations with better park access. They exist because Disney knows perfectly well that they need to provide options for the more value-oriented guests too.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I've listed this before -but two thing that show moderate suites is unlikely:
Since 2001 - 8 DVC resorts, 1 hotel
Their taking out six moderate buildings (around 600 rooms) to replace with moderate rooms? Makes zero sense. If it was just for moderate pricing - they'd take the old buildings, take out a few walls, and turn them into moderate suites at double the price. You don't go to that expense to make the same thing.

To be fair...there are some structural limitations on those buildings. I do know they looked at a retrofit for ADA compliance some 15 years ago but it was a no-go. It's possible they have no ability to retrofit those buildings at all...just saying

 

[lockedoutlogic]

But this whole "they could easily turn CBR into a deluxe resort" argument assumes that Disney even wants another large deluxe resort.

Let's just assume that upscaling the whole resort is both logistically and financially reasonable. I'm not sure it is, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume that. The problem is that the market for $600/night rooms is limited. As is the market for $350/night rooms. Disney is already having trouble filling their deluxe resorts; thus the conversion to DVC. Why would they go to the trouble and expense of upscaling another resort when they're struggling at their high end to start with?

Will people pay more for location? Sure. But there's only so many people who are both willing and able to pay those kind of prices. So if they start charging significantly more at CBR, where are those people going to come from? Do we believe that those currently staying in the values and moderates will suddenly increase their vacation budgets? Or are you just going to be drawing people away from the existing high-end resorts?

The moderate and value accommodations don't exist because Disney couldn't have built nicer resorts in better locations with better park access. They exist because Disney knows perfectly well that they need to provide options for the more value-oriented guests too.

Excellent points.

If they did for some reason connect Caribbean and upcharge...there could be no market for it. That's why dvc is taking over wilderness lodge - They outkicked their coverage on pricing and there's no market to keep it filled.

And it's much nicer from a thematic point of view.

 

[Sweettears]

But this whole "they could easily turn CBR into a deluxe resort" argument assumes that Disney even wants another large deluxe resort.

Let's just assume that upscaling the whole resort is both logistically and financially reasonable. I'm not sure it is, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume that. The problem is that the market for $600/night rooms is limited. As is the market for $350/night rooms. Disney is already having trouble filling their deluxe resorts; thus the conversion to DVC. Why would they go to the trouble and expense of upscaling another resort when they're struggling at their high end to start with?

Will people pay more for location? Sure. But there's only so many people who are both willing and able to pay those kind of prices. So if they start charging significantly more at CBR, where are those people going to come from? Do we believe that those currently staying in the values and moderates will suddenly increase their vacation budgets? Or are you just going to be drawing people away from the existing high-end resorts?

The moderate and value accommodations don't exist because Disney couldn't have built nicer resorts in better locations with better park access. They exist because Disney knows perfectly well that they need to provide options for the more value-oriented guests too.

Yea but...there is a lot of room between deluxe rack rate and moderate. If you are a bean counter it doesn't take much to realize that you are losing this price point to SD or offsite. Too many better options in the $300-400 range.

 

[OKW Lover]

Not sure why people think Disney is having trouble filling its hotel rooms. Disney has a hotel occupancy rate (which does not include DVC) that is the envy of the hotel business. Even with that, Disney is planning more hotel rooms on property according to their latest Annual Report. Just because they offer "discounts" and "free meals" doesn't mean they are hurting for customers. Its just marketing.

 

[LaidBackDad]

But this whole "they could easily turn CBR into a deluxe resort" argument assumes that Disney even wants another large deluxe resort.

Let's just assume that upscaling the whole resort is both logistically and financially reasonable. I'm not sure it is, but for the sake of argument, we'll assume that. The problem is that the market for $600/night rooms is limited. As is the market for $350/night rooms. Disney is already having trouble filling their deluxe resorts; thus the conversion to DVC. Why would they go to the trouble and expense of upscaling another resort when they're struggling at their high end to start with?

Will people pay more for location? Sure. But there's only so many people who are both willing and able to pay those kind of prices. So if they start charging significantly more at CBR, where are those people going to come from? Do we believe that those currently staying in the values and moderates will suddenly increase their vacation budgets? Or are you just going to be drawing people away from the existing high-end resorts?

The moderate and value accommodations don't exist because Disney couldn't have built nicer resorts in better locations with better park access. They exist because Disney knows perfectly well that they need to provide options for the more value-oriented guests too.

It's been a few pages since I outlined what I thought was happening with these plans. I completely agree Disney has no intention of converting all of CBR to deluxe. The tower will be deluxe DVC and guest of the tower will have access to the rest of the resort if they want. Regular guest will not have access to the tower services unless the services are intended for public use like a restaurant or spa and the new improved access to the parks (whatever that may be). As another poster put it, the tower will be treated as a separate resort kinda like a BLT set up. Expect the new tower to be more in line with Jambo House. They won't be touching the rest of CBR except probably the check-in / check-out will be moved closer to OPR. But, you will see a sharp rise in the rack rate of the current rooms because of the new park access that is undoubtedly coming with DVC. How high the increase will be is anybody's guess but I wouldn't rule out prices close to WL. "Cheap" moderate rooms with easy park access, ya, to say the demand for those rooms would be huge is an understatement.

To your other point, DVC sells out no matter what and when the sell DVC rooms at rack rates without any problem. CBR has the most rooms of all the moderate resorts and their rack rate is usually the lowest of the moderates. It makes perfect sense to eliminate some of the rooms at the lowest priced moderate resort with the best location to Epcot and DHS and replace them with DVC rooms. DVC needs a new resort in the Epcot area with all of the other work going on at DHS and rumored for Epcot. Disney makes money off of the current DVC model that they love and they don't have to make any wild changes to the model like a moderate DVC like some people suggest. A CBR DVC with park access will easily sell for the same price or more than the Boulder Creek or Poly DVC.

It would be nice if Disney did something different with the tower like moderate suites but it ain't happening. DVC is still the more lucrative option and it is a proven model that we know they love. Sorry to say, if you want larger rooms with a nice view close to 2 parks at WDW you are going to pay deluxe prices. Other than that, your probably looking at the Cabins at Fort Wilderness.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Not sure why people think Disney is having trouble filling its hotel rooms. Disney has a hotel occupancy rate (which does not include DVC) that is the envy of the hotel business. Even with that, Disney is planning more hotel rooms on property according to their latest Annual Report. Just because they offer "discounts" and "free meals" doesn't mean they are hurting for customers. Its just marketing.

Disney has never compared itself to the standard hotel operators as far as occupancy goes. No other hotel operators supports a fleet of hundreds of buses running 24/7. Disney overhead is a lot higher...the only occupancy number they are happy with is 100%. Their target occupancy and projections are 100%.

Wilderness lodge...if you believe the story...fell to 50% occupancy a few years ago. It's overpriced and now is converted.

There are Also large discounts available for deluxe rooms through travel agents at times during the year...there is a soft spot in their pricing where they are a lot weaker than you think.

A $300 Caribbean beach room would never need to be cleaned...as it would sit empty.

There appears to be more behind the numbers than their reserved "everything is great" standard stock holder announcements.

 

[Sweettears]

Disney has never compared itself to the standard hotel operators as far as occupancy goes. No other hotel operators supports a fleet of hundreds of buses running 24/7. Disney overhead is a lot higher...the only occupancy number they are happy with is 100%. Their target occupancy and projections are 100%.

Wilderness lodge...if you believe the story...fell to 50% occupancy a few years ago. It's overpriced and now is converted.

There are Also large discounts available for deluxe rooms through travel agents at times during the year...there is a soft spot in their pricing where they are a lot weaker than you think.

A $300 Caribbean beach room would never need to be cleaned...as it would sit empty.

There appears to be more behind the numbers than their reserved "everything is great" standard stock holder announcements.

Yep the discounts for room only in the deluxes is a thing of the past. DVC at the deluxe resorts was created because they couldn't sell out at the inflated rates. That's why creating a new level makes sense. Deluxe used to be affordable, although a stretch. They have lost a huge portion of the middle market , myself included. Something in between captures those dollars. You can't tell me that the bean counters don't realize this.

 

[OKW Lover]

Yep the discounts for room only in the deluxes is a thing of the past.

Current promotions notwithstanding?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Current promotions notwithstanding?

There are good discounts for deluxes...they Just aren't usually on Disney.com

 

[Sweettears]

Current promotions notwithstanding?

Not as good as they used to be. Plus the starting point for the discount is a huge jump from where it used to be. Getting deluxe in the $300- 400 range used to be normal . Not anymore