Plane incident at Chicago Midway

[manning]

It's been years since I've flown into Midway (the mid to late 1990s), but even then I thought the plane was going to land in someone's back yard.

Anyone that's curious and wants to get a good idea of what it looks like, find Midway airport on maps.google.com and choose the satellite option. The airport is boxed in on all sides with no room to expand or lengthen the runways. In fact, it appears the major runways form an X in the square. Any lenghtening would involve reconfiguring at least two roads.

Oh, that's what it is. I thought Mayor Daley X'd Midway out like Meigs

 

[Lewisc]

You quoted my post. I haven't the slightest idea if this type of barrier would have slowed down the plane enough to prevent it from leaving the airport. I also don't have the slightest idea if the barrier would have caused significant injuries to the passengers but saved the child in the car.

I prefer not to express an opinion when I don't have enough facts in which to base an opinion.

Government regulations call for 1,000 feet of "overrun". Midway has just over 80 feet. Chicago is going to be asking for a waiver.

It's certainly possible nothing can be done short of closing the airport or condemning enough land to expand.

Some articles said the plane was landing with the wind instead of into the wind which would have helped stop the plane. The planes were routed that way so as not to interfere with flight patterns at O'Hare.

This was in an MSNBC article earlier today that states that
Crushable concrete recommended
Safety experts say such airports can guard against accidents by instead using beds of crushable concrete that can slow an aircraft if it slides off the end of a runway.The concrete beds — called Engineered Material Arresting Systems, or EMAS — are in place at the end of 18 runways at 14 airports. They have stopped three dangerous overruns three times since May 1999 at Kennedy Airport in New York.

The following quote followed the above information written in the article.

“Certainly Midway airport officials should have already been trying to come up with something similar to this,” said Jim Hall, NTSB chairman from 1993 to 2001. “There’s really no margin for error at the end of that runway.”

So it does seem that Midway has some responsibility, it they did a recent expansion, why was this not included? It was well known that they have a smaller runway, the expansion should have included some safety measures.

 

[Lewisc]

Actually there is a law that requires 1,000 feet of overrun, Midway has under 100 feet. Chicago was planning on asking for a waiver, the effective date is 2015.

This was a horrible tragedy.

I was just thinking though -- I'm surprised people haven't started clamoring for this airport to be closed, or for it to be limited to smaller jets, as one would expect at an inner-city airport. I know that ORD is very busy, but there are other regional airports that can be utilized. Alternatively, folks could be pushing for the city to use its powers of emminent domain to take ownership over an adequate buffer around the airport, for both public safety and to enhance national security.

I don't think these are good ideas, mind you, but I'm generally considered a pretty conservative guy when it comes to things like this, and I'm used to seeing a lot of people pushing for stuff like this -- and I'm just wondering why no one seems to be rattling the cages with regard to changing things so this kind of problem doesn't happen again. Is this something which "all" people are simply willing to accept?

What am I missing?

 

[bicker]

I prefer not to express an opinion when I don't have enough facts in which to base an opinion.

That's why you're the mench you are, Lewis.

It's certainly possible nothing can be done short of closing the airport or condemning enough land to expand.

Certainly possible.

 

[manning]

Quote:
It's certainly possible nothing can be done short of closing the airport or condemning enough land to expand.

Certainly possible.

Have you ever heard the term "A snowball would stand a better chance in hell before this would happen."

The chicago airports represents power in this state. Daley (democrat) wants to hold on to them. The republicans want to build a new one in Peotone Daley/democrats don't want that except Jesse Jackson Jr because he sees a power base there for him. This war will be going on for a long time. Midway will be here for awhile as is.

Daley is putting big money into O'Hare expansion. He will go for the exemption.

 

[jcodespoti]

According to the flight crew, the reverse thrusters didn't fully kick-in.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/11/midway.crash.ap/index.html

Joe in CT

 

[manning]

Just as I figured would happen. The Mayor declared Midway safe and no other steps are needed to upgrade safety......His priority is O'Hare airport!!!!

 

[bicker]

I suppose that means it is simply up to each person to protect themselves, then, and avoid Midway airport regardless of the cost.

 

[JDietz40]

It's been years since I've flown into Midway (the mid to late 1990s), but even then I thought the plane was going to land in someone's back yard.

Anyone that's curious and wants to get a good idea of what it looks like, find Midway airport on maps.google.com and choose the satellite option. The airport is boxed in on all sides with no room to expand or lengthen the runways. In fact, it appears the major runways form an X in the square. Any lenghtening would involve reconfiguring at least two roads.

When I was younger we climbed up on the roof a couple times to see if there were any wheel marks up there. Sitting in the back yard you would swear that there was no way some of those planes would make it to the runway.

John

 

[JDietz40]

Quote:
It's certainly possible nothing can be done short of closing the airport or condemning enough land to expand.

Certainly possible.

Have you ever heard the term "A snowball would stand a better chance in hell before this would happen."

The chicago airports represents power in this state. Daley (democrat) wants to hold on to them. The republicans want to build a new one in Peotone Daley/democrats don't want that except Jesse Jackson Jr because he sees a power base there for him. This war will be going on for a long time. Midway will be here for awhile as is.

Daley is putting big money into O'Hare expansion. He will go for the exemption.

All the politicians are fighting over Midway, O'Hare and Peotone and overlooking the solution that already exists. Gary Airport has several times the land that Midway does it's 1 major runway is longer than Midways runways and ther is plenty of room for expansion. It would certainly require a great eal of building and expanding of the terminal to accomadate the amount of passengers that currently travel through Midway but it is currently a nice little airport with a small terminal and I believe 3 Jetways. Hooters is the only airline with scheduled flights there now but Southeast and Pan Am both had flights from Gary for awhile.

The biggest problem with this solution is it is in Indiana and the Illinois politicians are afraid that they won't be able to pocket enough money if the airport isn't in their state.





John

 

[JDietz40]

There was an article in Sunday's Chicago Tribune and it stated that Midway is not up to the current standards for runway length and runout but it is grandfathered in and therefore exempt from these standards. The article stated that there is 83 feet of runout room on the runaway where the incident occurred. even if only 3 of the 4 stages of the reverse thrusters deployed as they are now saying it does not make me feel safe to know that there is only 83' worth of safety margin. It seems that at most major airports with more leeway for error human or mechanical this tragedy would not have happened.
A former Midway airlines pilot stated in the story that he allways came in under the suggested glide path so he could land short and use asmuch of the runway as he could to stop.



John

 

[bicker]

Midway is not up to the current standards for runway length and runout but it is grandfathered in and therefore exempt from these standards.

Small consolation for those endangered by its continued operation.

 

[Lewisc]

Under new regulations Midway will need a 1,000 buffer by 2015. They can ask for a waiver but I'd hope that it will be much harder to get one.

I know there is a road there, it should be re-located or at least a tunnel built for the area at question.

I don't know if it makes more sense to buy land to comply, expand O'Hare or build another airport.

There was an article in Sunday's Chicago Tribune and it stated that Midway is not up to the current standards for runway length and runout but it is grandfathered in and therefore exempt from these standards.


John

 

[LIFERBABE]

Very sad to hear about the child that lost his life.

I lived in Wheeling and used to fly out of Midway often. Yes it is very tight, but I never felt unsafe.

For those that live in the area, I would be concerned about eminent domain being used to bring MDW up to code. Many people here in our area lost their homes to Shopping Malls and Football Stadiums. Im sure an Airport would win.

 

[manning]

The accident site was at the northwest corner of the airport. There are two major roads intersecting there plus a railroad right away. It would appear to be cost prohibitive to construct a 1000 foot runoff. The barrier method, EMAS, would seem to be the best way to go. They work like runaway truck ramps on mountain passes. If it is effective, why not?

The plane was traveling at 152 MPH when it touched down and 46 MPH when it hit the fence.

Paul Czysz, professor emeritus of aerospace engineering at Saint Louis University, likened landing at Midway in bad weather to landing on an aircraft carrier.

"You've got to stick it and brake like heck," Czysz said. "But poor visibility and any wind shear can make that tough to do."

 

[Lewisc]

Paul Czysz, professor emeritus of aerospace engineering at Saint Louis University, likened landing at Midway in bad weather to landing on an aircraft carrier.

"You've got to stick it and brake like heck," Czysz said. "But poor visibility and any wind shear can make that tough to do."

That's really not an safe, acceptable way to run an airport. Road and railroad tracks can be put tunneled below grade level. Houses can be bought. Alternatively the airport can be closed and a new one built.

Having a plane crash into a barrier really isn't a good solution either.

 

[JDietz40]

The accident site was at the northwest corner of the airport. There are two major roads intersecting there plus a railroad right away. It would appear to be cost prohibitive to construct a 1000 foot runoff. The barrier method, EMAS, would seem to be the best way to go. They work like runaway truck ramps on mountain passes. If it is effective, why not?

The plane was traveling at 152 MPH when it touched down and 46 MPH when it hit the fence.

Paul Czysz, professor emeritus of aerospace engineering at Saint Louis University, likened landing at Midway in bad weather to landing on an aircraft carrier.

"You've got to stick it and brake like heck," Czysz said. "But poor visibility and any wind shear can make that tough to do."

According to one report that I heard on TV tonight the EMAS system should be several hundred feet long and the runway in question at Midway had 83 feet of runoff space so even this doesn't seem like a likely option for Midway. It's sad to say but with Mayor Daley in Chicago who believes he is above all laws IMHO I don't think anything will change until there is a more severe accident and it hits him in his wallet.




John

 

[manning]

It might be doable. It would be impossible for the planes to touch down the first several hundred feet of runway. That would buy them the space they need to build it. I have watched them land and you would be amazed how fast they stop when everything is working right. Also they use maybe a little more than half the runway on takeoff.

Here's a trivia question for those living in Chicago. Do you remember what was located on the southwest corner of the airfield right inside the fence line?

 

[Lewisc]

It might be doable. It would be impossible for the planes to touch down the first several hundred feet of runway. That would buy them the space they need to build it. I have watched them land and you would be amazed how fast they stop when everything is working right. Also they use maybe a little more than half the runway on takeoff.

Here's a trivia question for those living in Chicago. Do you remember what was located on the southwest corner of the airfield right inside the fence line?

How is building a barrier the first hundred feet of the runway going to stop planes from going off the end of the runway? The problem isn't planes taking off hitting reverse by mistake and leaving the runway going backward. Besides the same runways are used for take off and landing. The problem is the runways aren't long enough. Shortening them by a hundred fee to build a barrier is going to make the situation worse not better.

I am amazed how fast they stop when everything is working right. We just saw what happens when everything isn't right.

Even with the barriers more land is necessary. The Federal Government will have to decide what's more important, caving in the IL politicians or safety.

 

[bicker]

To be fair, the barriers we're talking about would be installed at both ends of the runway, so regardless of which way the aircraft is landing, the barriers would apply. Also, these barriers aren't walls, but a special type of pavement that collapses in a certain way to slow the aircraft down. There is already about a hundred feet of grass at the ends of these runways, so the barriers could be installed there.

Even with the barriers, Midway would still not be safe.