Pepper Spraying Students at UC-Davis

[eliza61]

Okay...I'm confused. Maybe it's buried somewhere in the middle here, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Isn't is a "right" to be able to assemble for a peaceful protest? or am I misremembering?

If it is a right, then who are the schools to say it is against their rules? Schools are allowed to take away constitutional rights because they say so? Have I missed something here?

I will say that the apparent willingness of our police to shoot people in the face with pepper spray in the last month is scary.

LOL
Evidently only until the cops tell you to do some thing, then you become citizens of North Korea and you must do as you are told.

Personally, I wish we would at least stop pretending that this is a country with personal freedoms, at least then people would know exactly what to expect.

 

[akhenaten]

Wow. I am amazed at how many people approve of America becoming a Police State. I am frightened by it too.


"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-- by Martin Niemöller, prominent German anti-Nazi theologian and Lutheran pastor

 

[Princess Dolly]

Of course not, comparing shooting and killing them to pepper spraying them is like comparing apples and oranges. Not the same thing at all.

OK. What about tasering? Pepper Spray and Taser are usually on the same level on the Use of Force matrix.

 

[eliza61]

Wow. I am amazed at how many people approve of America becoming a Police State. I am frightened by it too.


"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-- by Martin Niemöller, prominent German anti-Nazi theologian and Lutheran pastor

Amen Olwyngdh,


people say this ain't the 60's well let me tell you, THIS acceptance is exactly how it started. first we start blaming the victims (oh they are hippies or they should have moved) then we start justifying the use of extreme force.

Lastly, it always, always ramped up because as we see now these college kids are not going away so now what will the cops do?

 

[iheartdisney]

So let me ask you, why not just have a dictatorship if we should all do what some one in supposedly authority tells us to do without question. why even have a constitution?

I'm the daughter of a nyc cop and my father taught us never ever give up information to the cops unless you have a lawyer present.

My sons were taught and now that they drive we reinforce it daily, they are never to argue or resist a policeman, that is a recipe for a black kid to get killed and shot. They are to tell them their name period. and to repeatedly request to call their parents. They are not to answer any questions about any thing.

If a cop ask me for identification, you better believe I'm asking why. cop comes to my door they do not get let in and they do not get to speak with my teenage sons. If there is a problem I will gladly come down to the station with representation and you get no access to my children until you present a warrant or I am satisfied that you are not going to pin some thing on him or beat the living daylights out of him.

Cops do not have the authority to do what they want simply because they have a badge. There is a name for that, it's called a police state.

Don't go by me, my favorite person was Eleanor Roosevelt.

And people wonder why the racial divide still exist in this country. As long as children are taught to hate, nothing is going to improve.

 

[MIGrandma]

But it is the same thing. They're both disproportionate, unwarranted responses using undue force improperly - and I said nothing about killing.

What's the difference? Why did the students 'deserve' to be pepper sprayed, when they'd done nothing wrong, but were warned they'd be sprayed, yet they don't 'deserve' to be shot in the exact same circumstance?

I don't see it as the same thing at all. I see a big difference in using pepper spray vs. a gun to wound or kill.

It most definitely is the same mentality. Beating some one to a bloody pulp, siccing german sheppard dogs, pepper spraying, tazing are all extreme acts of violence. PERIOD. the cops do not have some carte blanche to do whatever the hell they feel is appropriate.
So ok, t his time is was pepper spray, now as is always the case when you react to protestors with out of control responses, the protestors do not just give upl.

So grandma what happens today when the protestors return as is their right. Do we shoot them and say, "Well we told them to leave yesterday"

These kids were not violent, were not aggressive, they were sitting on the ground, not resisting in anyway.

Had that been my child, I'd have every lawyer, every fire breathing agitator, every tv pundit from Al Sharpton to the westboro church on the school.

I do not agree that it is the same mentality. IMO beating someone to a bloody pulp is totally different than pepper spraying them. And if someone is drunk as a skunk and being abusive to the police then they deserve to be tasered. Stop arguing with the police, stop hitting them, stop trying to get away, etc. and they wouldn't get tasered. From my understanding, these college kids that got peppered sprayed had been told numerous times to leave. They didn't leave. It was their CHOICE not to leave, so the police did as they TOLD the students they would do, they sprayed them with pepper spray. Frankly, if they go back today when they were told not to, arrest them all and let their parents pay to bail them out. If the students don't like the raise in tuition prices then go to a different school.

OK. What about tasering? Pepper Spray and Taser are usually on the same level of the force index.

I support tasering too, if the person resists arrest, or is being abusive to the police, hitting, biting, kicking, punching, etc. I believe the police have no choice not to use taser as force against someone like that. But no, I wouldn't support tasering of the students we're talking about. If pepper spray doesn't work, arrest them and let their parents come for them. And I don't equate pepper spray and tasering on the same level of force. Taser can kill in some instances, pepper spray won't.

 

[Princess Dolly]

I support tasering too, if the person resists arrest, or is being abusive to the police, hitting, biting, kicking, punching, etc. I believe the police have no choice not to use taser as force against someone like that. But no, I wouldn't support tasering of the students we're talking about. If pepper spray doesn't work, arrest them and let their parents come for them. And I don't equate pepper spray and tasering on the same level of force. Taser can kill in some instances, pepper spray won't.

It really doesn't matter if you don't equate pepper spray and Taser on the same level for use of force, for many police departments they are considered the same.

 

[tar heel]

I hope it does NOT cost the police their jobs. They told the students to leave or they would be sprayed. It was the students' CHOICE not to move, so yes, they did get what they deserved. They should have left when told to. If my child was in that group and got sprayed I would tell them they should have left when the police told them to.

You think they should have been hit with pepper spray -- are you kidding me? This was not an appropriate use of pepper spray. So, you think policemen should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as they warn you first . . .

 

[luvmy3]

I support tasering too, if the person resists arrest, or is being abusive to the police, hitting, biting, kicking, punching, etc. I believe the police have no choice not to use taser as force against someone like that. But no, I wouldn't support tasering of the students we're talking about. If pepper spray doesn't work, arrest them and let their parents come for them. And I don't equate pepper spray and tasering on the same level of force. Taser can kill in some instances, pepper spray won't.

IF pepper spray doesn't work, then arrest them? Why is it alright for pepper spray to come first on a bunch of students just SITTING there?

 

[Lucille1963]

Am I the only one dying to know who authorized the use of pepper spray on these students. Was it just the cops at the scene or were they following orders?

 

[Planogirl]

I'm not advocating the use of this spray but should the police have just let them sit there? I guess that I don't see the harm in just walking around them but from what I understand there are rules against such protests on campus property. I guess that the question becomes whether people can protest on school campus. I'm not sure whether the right to assembly covers such property.

I think that it's silly that people are calling for the firing of the chancellor when apparently he was against this too.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Interesting and accurate. While you hadn't espoused, you had already responded mentioning Gitlow by the time WebMaster Alex posted. Apparently, you're predictable .

Could you show me where I mentioned Gitlow? If you don't want to be educated, don't ask questions or post wrong information.

And people wonder why the racial divide still exist in this country. As long as children are taught to hate, nothing is going to improve.

That child isn't being taught to hate. That child is being taught to fear. And while fear may lead to hatred, what the sons were taught are excellent safety tips.

I don't see it as the same thing at all. I see a big difference in using pepper spray vs. a gun to wound or kill.

I do not agree that it is the same mentality. IMO beating someone to a bloody pulp is totally different than pepper spraying them. And if someone is drunk as a skunk and being abusive to the police then they deserve to be tasered. Stop arguing with the police, stop hitting them, stop trying to get away, etc. and they wouldn't get tasered. From my understanding, these college kids that got peppered sprayed had been told numerous times to leave. They didn't leave. It was their CHOICE not to leave, so the police did as they TOLD the students they would do, they sprayed them with pepper spray. Frankly, if they go back today when they were told not to, arrest them all and let their parents pay to bail them out. If the students don't like the raise in tuition prices then go to a different school.

I support tasering too, if the person resists arrest, or is being abusive to the police, hitting, biting, kicking, punching, etc. I believe the police have no choice not to use taser as force against someone like that. But no, I wouldn't support tasering of the students we're talking about. If pepper spray doesn't work, arrest them and let their parents come for them. And I don't equate pepper spray and tasering on the same level of force. Taser can kill in some instances, pepper spray won't.

But the students posed absolutely no threat to the police at the time. Why use force. As for pepper spray, do you realize that it has been linked to the deaths of suspects in custody who were sprayed in the field?

IF pepper spray doesn't work, then arrest them? Why is it alright for pepper spray to come first on a bunch of students just SITTING there?

Actually, the pepper spray is used in conjunction with arrest. It contains dyes and markers that make it easier for law enforcement to identify the "perps" and arrest them if they scatter.

 

[eliza61]

I don't see it as the same thing at all. I see a big difference in using pepper spray vs. a gun to wound or kill.



I do not agree that it is the same mentality. IMO beating someone to a bloody pulp is totally different than pepper spraying them. And if someone is drunk as a skunk and being abusive to the police then they deserve to be tasered. Stop arguing with the police, stop hitting them, stop trying to get away, etc. and they wouldn't get tasered. From my understanding, these college kids that got peppered sprayed had been told numerous times to leave. They didn't leave. It was their CHOICE not to leave, so the police did as they TOLD the students they would do, they sprayed them with pepper spray. Frankly, if they go back today when they were told not to, arrest them all and let their parents pay to bail them out. If the students don't like the raise in tuition prices then go to a different school.

.

Ok, and I'll add one of my own.

If you can't tell the difference between someone resisting arrest and sitting on the ground peaceful. Get another job you don't need to be a cop.

If you can't tell the difference between some one who is abusive and some one who is peaceful, your people skills stink, get another job you don't need to be a cop.

If you can't manage to arrest some one who is in no way fighting back but pretty much just lying there. Get another job, you definitely don't have the composure for police work, try accounting.

hoping they get the same consideration during the review as they showed the students.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I'm not advocating the use of this spray but should the police have just let them sit there? I guess that I don't see the harm in just walking around them but from what I understand there are rules against such protests on campus property. I guess that the question becomes whether people can protest on school campus. I'm not sure whether the right to assembly covers such property.

I think that it's silly that people are calling for the firing of the chancellor when apparently he was against this too.

The chancellor is a woman. And the reason people are calling for her head is because she failed as the leader of the institution. Her initial reaction was the equivalent of "meh " As public outrage has grown, her reaction has as well.

 

[luvmy3]

Could you show me where I mentioned Gitlow? If you don't want to be educated, don't ask questions or post wrong information.



That child isn't being taught to hate. That child is being taught to fear. And while fear may lead to hatred, what the sons were taught are excellent safety tips.



But the students posed absolutely no threat to the police at the time. Why use force. As for pepper spray, do you realize that it has been linked to the deaths of suspects in custody who were sprayed in the field?



Actually, the pepper spray is used in conjunction with arrest. It contains dyes and markers that make it easier for law enforcement to identify the "perps" and arrest them if they scatter.

Not always, not everyone who is arrested is sprayed with pepper spray. Besides, the pp said "spray them with pepper spray and if that doesn't work, arrest them" Not the same scenario you are describing.
There certainly valid reasons for the Police to use pepper spray, a bunch of students sitting down and not moving isn't one of them.

 

[moburg]

most protest is against the rules. that's the general nature of protest. So should they have sicced attack dogs on them? what about just shooting them?
Just trying to reconcile why we supposedly have the right to peaceful protest, its most often met with violance. I thought it was excessive. glad the officers have been put on leave.

Some on these boards had a great post from Ganhdi I wish I could find it.

Yep, protest is against the rules. So when you break the rules, accept the consequences. In this case, the consequences were pepper spray and arrest.

The students were ordered to leave, they were warned they would be sprayed, and yet, they remained. They have no one to blame but themselves.

The worst person here is the UC-Davis President. She gave the order to have the protesters removed, and then when the PR went bad, she hung the police out to dry. They followed her orders, and rightly so. If she now thinks the order to remove them was wrong, say it, admit it, accept it.

 

[SaraJayne]

I'm thinking people need to brush up on their history, regarding how the United States of America came to be born.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Not always, not everyone who is arrested is sprayed with pepper spray. Besides, the pp said "spray them with pepper spray and if that doesn't work, arrest them" Not the same scenario you are describing.
There certainly valid reasons for the Police to use pepper spray, a bunch of students sitting down and not moving isn't one of them.

I'm sorry; my post confused. Yes, I agree that people who weren't sprayed were arrested. I was trying to point out that the pepper spray wasn't in lieu of arrest; it was in conjunction with the arrest.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I'm thinking people need to brush up on their history, regarding how the United States of America came to be born.

I think there was something about people being upset about monopolies and taxes on "luxury" items. They boarded a boat, behaved rudely, and made the tea unsuitable to drink -- even by American standards.

 

[SaraJayne]

I think there was something about people being upset about monopolies and taxes on "luxury" items. They boarded a boat, behaved rudely, and made the tea unsuitable to drink -- even by American standards.

Close enough.