Pepper Spraying Students at UC-Davis

[kaytieeldr]

It's unconstitutional to regulate the content of the speech, not the time, place, and manner.

No. It's only illegal for Congress to do that.


Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/BillOfRights.html

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

The police used a chemical weapon that is banned in warfare to incapacitate students who posed absolutely no threat of violence to the police. The sit-in did not block any buildings or trap the occupants of any buildings on campus. It was in a wide-open area. The idea that anybody thinks that what the police did here is appropriate is simply breathtaking.

Everybody from every political persuasion should be speaking with one voice in denouncing the police actions at Davis, Berkley, Oakland, etc. Officials are acting in a deliberately brutal way to silence protests and discourage dissent. Their actions, by their own admissions, are aimed at preventing protests from "getting a foothold." In other words, they want people to think twice, thrice, before exercising their First Amendment right to assemble and protest. And each time we sit by and let officials do this, a bit of our freedom evaporates.

 

[EmmaBrault]

No. It's only illegal for Congress to do that.


Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/BillOfRights.html

The First Amendment applies to any arm of the government. State and local authorites can give you more freedom, but not less. This is why local ordinances banning flag burning have been ruled unconstitutional.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

No. It's only illegal for Congress to do that.


Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/BillOfRights.html

No, it's equally applicable to the states as well. Not to mention, most state "constitutions" or foundational documents contain a freedom of speech provision that is at least as coextensive as the 1st Amendment.

It's only through Supreme Court jurisprudence that we have "time, manner, and place" restrictions. And after the more recent string of cases, those restrictions may be on their way out.

 

[bumbershoot]

But they didn't look like it hurt/bothered them. I thought pepper spray was painful.

I just watched a video. Didn't look painful at all. Yep, a couple people moved on their own. Not much though.

But I've been in a house when someone said "hey, what's this?" and we all yelled "nooooooo!!!!!!!" as she pressed the button on the personal pepper spray... She spritzed it, a tiny little amount, and we had to *clear the house* the two story, with basement and attic, house, for HOURS. We were in serious pain, from a spritz. (this was a huge problem, as we were all helping the owner of the spray pack up!)

These people got blasted in the face and barely reacted.

This is NOT very strong pepper spray.


I was an employee in training a few stories up from the WTO protests in Seattle, and got to walk miles in the wrong way just to get home, because of the JERK pretend-protesters. The day started off with real protesters, people with kids in wagons, and as the day went on, those people went home, and they were replaced with people in hoodies (before they were popular) with face masks and gas masks and things to protect their identities and lungs... And the Seattle police used spray things to get them to STOP it, to stop spraying paint on the walls of the city, to get them to just move. One of my good friends had a horrible, awful, asthma attack because of the spray in the air from hours BEFORE. Definitely not the same sort of pepper spray.


Ya know, my mom was a very peaceful hippie, and she NEVER would have thought it was her right to sit in the middle of a pathway, blocking others from easy access to wherever they are going. If I were at Davis, I would have been seriously annoyed at those people just sitting there in the way...

Protesting is one thing. Heck, my private university's tuition went up 13% from my freshman to my sophomore year and that did not feel good... But blocking others from their day to day stuff? No.


They were told to move; they were made to move. Good. Let everyone else go about getting their education and going to their jobs. I have a right to protest. I do NOT have a right to get in everyone's way.

 

[cornflake]

In the long version of the video, you'll see the officers try a number of times to remove the protesters in a peaceful manner (without pepper spray). The protesters pull away, squirm, or just refuse to move. I don't know if the use of pepper spray was warranted, but I do know that the protesters chose to ignore the warnings and the opportunities for a more peaceful arrest.

Of course they ignored the warnings, they were staging a protest.

They exercise their right to assemble - as guaranteed under the Constitution of these here United States - and to speak out and etc., as above.

The U. may or may not have the right to make them move. They call the cops. The cops tell them to move. They do not move. The cops warn them that they will be moved. They do not move. They link arms and sit peacefully.

This is not the part where someone gets out weaponry.

This is the part (and this entire exercise has a long and storied history, in many places and definitely in the place this occurred) when the cops warn them they'll be arrested if they do not disassemble.

They do not move. Maybe they bust out a chorus of 'We Shall Overcome.' The cops bust out the plastic handcuffs. The kids go limp. The cops pick them up, carry them to the buses, cuff them and drive them to be booked and released. Everyone goes home relatively happy and unscathed - that's what's supposed to happen.

This wasn't some new, challenging circumstance, it was some cops lost the plot and their minds.

As for 'they were warned' - it was a disproportionate and unwarranted response by the cops. It doesn't matter that they warned people before unleashing it. As someone else notes, if they said 'if you don't disperse, we'll shoot you,' that would not make it ok to shoot protesters.

 

[kaytieeldr]

No, it's equally applicable to the states as well. Not to mention, most state "constitutions" or foundational documents contain a freedom of speech provision that is at least as coextensive as the 1st Amendment.

Soooo, wait, I'm confused. It's illegal for states to regulate the content of the speech, not the time, place, and manner - as well as it being illegal/ legal for Congress based on the Bill of Rights?

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I just watched a video. Didn't look painful at all. Yep, a couple people moved on their own. Not much though.

But I've been in a house when someone said "hey, what's this?" and we all yelled "nooooooo!!!!!!!" as she pressed the button on the personal pepper spray... She spritzed it, a tiny little amount, and we had to *clear the house* the two story, with basement and attic, house, for HOURS. We were in serious pain, from a spritz. (this was a huge problem, as we were all helping the owner of the spray pack up!)

These people got blasted in the face and barely reacted.

This is NOT very strong pepper spray.


I was an employee in training a few stories up from the WTO protests in Seattle, and got to walk miles in the wrong way just to get home, because of the JERK pretend-protesters. The day started off with real protesters, people with kids in wagons, and as the day went on, those people went home, and they were replaced with people in hoodies (before they were popular) with face masks and gas masks and things to protect their identities and lungs... And the Seattle police used spray things to get them to STOP it, to stop spraying paint on the walls of the city, to get them to just move. One of my good friends had a horrible, awful, asthma attack because of the spray in the air from hours BEFORE. Definitely not the same sort of pepper spray.


Ya know, my mom was a very peaceful hippie, and she NEVER would have thought it was her right to sit in the middle of a pathway, blocking others from easy access to wherever they are going. If I were at Davis, I would have been seriously annoyed at those people just sitting there in the way...

Protesting is one thing. Heck, my private university's tuition went up 13% from my freshman to my sophomore year and that did not feel good... But blocking others from their day to day stuff? No.


They were told to move; they were made to move. Good. Let everyone else go about getting their education and going to their jobs. I have a right to protest. I do NOT have a right to get in everyone's way.

Yes, I'm sure that the students who were treated at the hospital felt it was a very mild pepper spray. I'm sure the students who began to violently vomit felt that it was mild.

The difference between your pepper spray and the one used against the protesters is not strength. It's the method of delivery. Your pepper spray is meant to cover a greater area through an aerosol-like spray. It's not a precision-delivery method. That is why you had to clear the house. The spray the police used here was meant to stick to the target with little to no risk of blow-back that might affect the cops.

 

[iheartdisney]

I'm shocked, how dare the police respond the way they did. Never mind the fact that the protesters were breaking the law, and told repeatedly the consiquences of thier actions if they refused to disperse. How dare the police uphold the law.

No one is mentioning the fact that the previous day this "peaceful" protest stormed the Board of Trustees meeting in Long Beach, injuring an officer when the protesters shattered a glass door.

I have no doubt that these officers were told to use the pepper spray. I don't believe it is SOP to carry around an industrial sized bottle of pepper spray and a mask. At the end of the day, they didn't shoot. No one got tased. No one died. It was pepper spray.

I must be old fashioned. I was raised that when a police officer tells me to do something, I do it. When I am told to pull over, I do. When I am asked to hand over my licence, I hand it over. If a police officer told me, "move or get pepper sprayed in the face" I would probably move. Maybe these students have way more to complain about than the cost of their education if they haven't even been educated on how to follow directions. My son has the same problem, but he is in the 2nd grade.

 

[cornflake]

Soooo, wait, I'm confused. It's illegal for states to regulate the content of the speech, not the time, place, and manner - as well as it being illegal/ legal for Congress based on the Bill of Rights?

Through the 14th, it applies to every municipality, basically. See Gitlow, iirc.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Soooo, wait, I'm confused. It's illegal for states to regulate the content of the speech, not the time, place, and manner - as well as it being illegal/ legal for Congress based on the Bill of Rights?

The feds are prohibited from abridging speech by the 1st Amendment.

The states are prohibited from abridging speech by the 1st Amendment, made applicable to the states through the 14th Amendment.

States are also usually prohibited from abridging speech by their own constitutions or foundational documents.

The 1st Amendment does not contain any language about "time, place, and manner" restrictions. These restrictions have been interpreted into our 1st Amendment jurisprudence by the courts. It started with the idea that "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater." But it has been steadily expanded from there, allowing for quite stunning restrictions on speech.

 

[cornflake]

I must be old fashioned. I was raised that when a police officer tells me to do something, I do it. When I am told to pull over, I do. When I am asked to hand over my licence, I hand it over. If a police officer told me, "move or get pepper sprayed in the face" I would probably move. Maybe these students have way more to complain about than the cost of their education if they haven't even been educated on how to follow directions. My son has the same problem, but he is in the 2nd grade.

I don't think it's "old fashioned," I think it's just a different worldview, outlook, whatever.

I was raised to question authority. To each their own, no need for insults.

 

[kaytieeldr]

They do not move. Maybe they bust out a chorus of 'We Shall Overcome.' The cops bust out the plastic handcuffs. The kids go limp. The cops pick them up, carry them to the buses, cuff them and drive them to be booked and released. Everyone goes home relatively happy.

This wasn't some new, challenging circumstance, it was some cops lost the plot and their minds.

This isn't the sixties and seventies, which is what you're describing. This is the 21st century, where the motto seems to be, "you looked at me funny, I'm suing you!"
Handcuff professors. Lift them up? Seriously? Can you imagine the claims of sexual assault?

 

[WebmasterAlex]

Soooo, wait, I'm confused. It's illegal for states to regulate the content of the speech, not the time, place, and manner - as well as it being illegal/ legal for Congress based on the Bill of Rights?

Oh Oh it's entirely possible you may trigger a full blown lecture by the Nutty Law Professor. If he starts posting things like Incorporation Doctrine, Due Process Clause and Gitlowv. New York it's all your fault!!!

What ever happend to the good old days when a few strong cops would pick up the protesters and throw them in the paddy wagon. Nobody ever got hurt and it was all good clean fun!

 

[kaytieeldr]

I can't really see the color of their skin through all that pepper spray.

Hyperbolize much?

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

This isn't the sixties and seventies, which is what you're describing. This is the 21st century, where the motto seems to be, "you looked at me funny, I'm suing you!"
Handcuff professors. Lift them up? Seriously? Can you imagine the claims of sexual assault?

Yes, Katie. That's what you do. You cuff them and move them. It's the protocol. You don't use a chemical weapon that is banned in war and is only supposed to be used domestically to subdue clear and present threats to safety. And if you watch the video, they cuff them and move them after they spray them.

 

["Got Disney"]

No one is mentioning the fact that the previous day this "peaceful" protest stormed the Board of Trustees meeting in Long Beach, injuring an officer when the protesters shattered a glass door.

I have no doubt that these officers were told to use the pepper spray. I don't believe it is SOP to carry around an industrial sized bottle of pepper spray and a mask. At the end of the day, they didn't shoot. No one got tased. No one died. It was pepper spray.

I must be old fashioned. I was raised that when a police officer tells me to do something, I do it. When I am told to pull over, I do. When I am asked to hand over my licence, I hand it over. If a police officer told me, "move or get pepper sprayed in the face" I would probably move. Maybe these students have way more to complain about than the cost of their education if they

haven't even been educated on how to follow directions. My son has the same problem, but he is in the 2nd grade.

Other stuff I have read is that some were not even students,...and they were warned not to put tents up but did anyway....when asked to take them down they refused....all took them down but that handful of people....also letters were passed around the campus telling them NO TENTS!

Iagree if the cops tell me not to or to do something I do it......do I think this was a bit much ...yes....the cop did it as if he was enjoying it.....that is what bothers me....it's like they used a soaker gun, and this pepper spray is not meant to be used at such a close range but used to shoot far in riots....

Eitherway the cops and protesters were wrong.....no tents means no tents....

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Oh Oh it's entirely possible you may trigger a full blown lecture by the Nutty Law Professor. If he starts posting things like Incorporation Doctrine, Due Process Clause and Gitlowv. New York it's all your fault!!!

What ever happend to the good old days when a few strong cops would pick up the protesters and throw them in the paddy wagon. Nobody ever got hurt and it was all good clean fun!

Your assumptions are quite interesting, sir.

 

[Lucille1963]

/

 

[Wadecool]

No one is mentioning the fact that the previous day this "peaceful" protest stormed the Board of Trustees meeting in Long Beach, injuring an officer when the protesters shattered a glass door.

I have no doubt that these officers were told to use the pepper spray. I don't believe it is SOP to carry around an industrial sized bottle of pepper spray and a mask. At the end of the day, they didn't shoot. No one got tased. No one died. It was pepper spray.

I must be old fashioned. I was raised that when a police officer tells me to do something, I do it. When I am told to pull over, I do. When I am asked to hand over my licence, I hand it over. If a police officer told me, "move or get pepper sprayed in the face" I would probably move. Maybe these students have way more to complain about than the cost of their education if they haven't even been educated on how to follow directions. My son has the same problem, but he is in the 2nd grade.

I'm sure some folks would tell you it was that officers own fault for standing in front of that glass door.