Palin breaks with McCain on gay marriage

[ChrizJen]

None of the candidates from either party are advocates of gay marriage.....look it up if you don't believe me.....

just a snippet




http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Sarah_Palin_Civil_Rights.htm



Boy, the noise must be deafening in the "Hope and Change" Echo Chamber.......

How many times must we repeat that we are FULLY aware of the candidates' stances on gay marriage.
The "echo" that you may be hearing is probably some of us repeating over and over that we are aware that all of the candidates are opposed to gay marriage.

One more time, here's the difference:

Barack Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes laws to include crimes perpetrated because of sexual orientation and gender identity.

Barack Obama believes we need to repeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military. His campaign literature says, "The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve."

Barack Obama believes gays and lesbians should have the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.

Although Barack Obama has said that he against gay marriage, he supports civil unions with the same rights as heterosexual married couples.

Joe Biden voted against a constitutional amendment to prohibit same-sex marriage. He is also in favor of civil unions with the same rights as hetersexual married couples.



What has McCain said?

He's said that he encourages same sex couples to enter into legal contracts and whatever else is necessary for visitation and health insurance, etc.

John McCain also voted for the Defense of Marriage Act, and spoke out in favor of an amendment to Arizona's constitution to ban gay marriage.

And now we clearly know where Sarah Palin stand on the issue...


So even though both parties have similar views on marriage, they are VASTLY different in their view on rights. And there's where the big difference is.

 

[smartestnumber5]

This is a matter of opinion....and as such, we all have them. IMO there is not much distance between the candidates when it comes to gay marriage or rights (uh, what extra rights are we talking about anyways?).

I don't see Sarah Palin standing between you and your children at all. If she was, I would oppose her. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness after all.

JMO

Wow you know absolutely nothing about gay rights or lack thereof do you? (I guess I will just chalk it up to how it's easy not to bother knowing about or caring about an issue when it doesn't directly affect you.)

There are 1000+ federal rights that come with marriage/civil unions--both of which are opposed by McCain/Palin. Biden/Obama support civil unions. Obama opposes any constitutional amendments (state or federal) that ban gay marriage. He wants to repeal DOMA which would essentially blow the door wide open on couples in states where they can marry getting federal benefits, and would probably lead to gay marriages from one state being recognized in other states.

Both McCain/Palin oppose gay adoption. They think I am unfit to adopt a child because I am gay. In numerous states, same-sex adoption is not allowed at all. In others a gay couple cannot adopt together--they must lie or pretend that they are single on paper in order for one of them to be able to adopt. The other has no way of gaining legal rights to the child. Even if my partner and I choose to have one of us get pregnant, about 50% of the states will not allow the non-biological mother to have ANY legal rights to that child. This is, in part, a direct result of same-sex marriage/civil unions not being legal. If I were a man and my wife was impregnated by a sperm donor, that child would automatically be my child legally; but since I cannot be married to my partner, that child is nothing to me legally. If I want to have legal rights to the child, I have to have a "second parent adoption." But guess what--that would be a gay adoption! And many states do not allow that because us gays are so unfit to be parents.

So if my partner gave birth to a child and we raised it together in MI for the next 10 years I would still at that point have absolutely none, zero, nada rights to the child. My partner would every right to take the child away and forbid me from seeing the child ever again. Because legally, no matter how long I parent the child I will never been seen as anything but a stranger to it just because I am gay. And that is exactly how McCain/Palin appear to what things to be given their opposition to gay adoption and civil unions/marriage.

The other gay rights issues include: domestic partner benefits (Palin has n opposed; McCain has actively campaigned for an amendment to the AZ constitution which may have banned those benefits just as they were banned by a similar amendment in MI--luckily the AZ amendment didn't pass.), don't ask don't tell (again McCain is totally in favor--I believe he has stated that having gay people serve openly in the military is a threat to national security), adding sexual orientation to the existing federal anti-discrimination legislation (big surprise--McCain opposes!), adding sexual orientation to existing hate crime legislation (McCain opposes!).

See here for further info:
http://www.hrc.org/equality08/mccain.htm
http://www.hrc.org/equality08/270.htm

If you still can't see a difference between the two candidates that is NOT a matter of opinion (I'd recommend you get new glasses--cuz something must be wrong with your eyesight.) It is just simply and out and out lie that there is no or little difference between the two candidates on gay rights. You may not think that those 1000+ rights that would come with a civil union, or the repeal of DOMA, or being allowed to adopt matter. Of course they don't matter *to you*. They sure do matter to gay people.

So now you know that the polices that McCain/Palin support on gay rights sure as hell DO stand in the way of gay people having rights to their own children as well as having all of these other kinds of protection. So I assume you'll not be voting for them anymore, correct?

 

[smartestnumber5]

How many times must we repeat that we are FULLY aware of the candidates' stances on gay marriage.

Well why would anybody actually bother listening to what gay people have to say about this stuff?

Clearly we don't know anything about gay rights and the candidates--I mean, we're just the people who have to live without the rights.




Really I wonder if people just have to tell themselves there would be no difference in gay people's lives no matter what policies were in place so they can sleep at night. I noticed awhile back on another one of these threads that a number of pro-gay rights McCain supporters were insisting that he is no different than Obama on any gay rights issue. After the vast differences were pointed out about 1000 times I guess they finally sunk in, because those people would then suddenly just disappear from the thread and just stop conversing about it at all. I mean, what is there to say when the guy you're voting for makes absolutely clear on every issue that he thinks of gay people as second class citizens?

 

[Mr Man]

Wow you know absolutely nothing about gay rights or lack thereof do you? (I guess I will just chalk it up to how it's easy not to bother knowing about or caring about an issue when it doesn't directly affect you.)

There are 1000+ federal rights that come with marriage/civil unions--both of which are opposed by McCain/Palin. Biden/Obama support civil unions. Obama opposes any constitutional amendments (state or federal) that ban gay marriage. He wants to repeal DOMA which would essentially blow the door wide open on couples in states where they can marry getting federal benefits, and would probably lead to gay marriages from one state being recognized in other states.

Both McCain/Palin oppose gay adoption. They think I am unfit to adopt a child because I am gay. In numerous states, same-sex adoption is not allowed at all. In others a gay couple cannot adopt together--they must lie or pretend that they are single on paper in order for one of them to be able to adopt. The other has no way of gaining legal rights to the child. Even if my partner and I choose to have one of us get pregnant, about 50% of the states will not allow the non-biological mother to have ANY legal rights to that child. This is, in part, a direct result of same-sex marriage/civil unions not being legal. If I were a man and my wife was impregnated by a sperm donor, that child would automatically be my child legally; but since I cannot be married to my partner, that child is nothing to me legally. If I want to have legal rights to the child, I have to have a "second parent adoption." But guess what--that would be a gay adoption! And many states do not allow that because us gays are so unfit to be parents.

So if my partner gave birth to a child and we raised it together in MI for the next 10 years I would still at that point have absolutely none, zero, nada rights to the child. My partner would every right to take the child away and forbid me from seeing the child ever again. Because legally, no matter how long I parent the child I will never been seen as anything but a stranger to it just because I am gay. And that is exactly how McCain/Palin appear to what things to be given their opposition to gay adoption and civil unions/marriage.

The other gay rights issues include: domestic partner benefits (Palin has n opposed; McCain has actively campaigned for an amendment to the AZ constitution which may have banned those benefits just as they were banned by a similar amendment in MI--luckily the AZ amendment didn't pass.), don't ask don't tell (again McCain is totally in favor--I believe he has stated that having gay people serve openly in the military is a threat to national security), adding sexual orientation to the existing federal anti-discrimination legislation (big surprise--McCain opposes!), adding sexual orientation to existing hate crime legislation (McCain opposes!).

See here for further info:
http://www.hrc.org/equality08/mccain.htm
http://www.hrc.org/equality08/270.htm

If you still can't see a difference between the two candidates that is NOT a matter of opinion (I'd recommend you get new glasses--cuz something must be wrong with your eyesight.) It is just simply and out and out lie that there is no or little difference between the two candidates on gay rights. You may not think that those 1000+ rights that would come with a civil union, or the repeal of DOMA, or being allowed to adopt matter. Of course they don't matter *to you*. They sure do matter to gay people.

So now you know that the polices that McCain/Palin support on gay rights sure as hell DO stand in the way of gay people having rights to their own children as well as having all of these other kinds of protection. So I assume you'll not be voting for them anymore, correct?

Note to self. Add item to "To Do" list.

To be added: Forward copies of Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"......use the copy that has the important stuff underlined (like so).

Nine Ways To Change People Without Giving Offense Or Arousing Resentment

1. Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
2. Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
3. Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other man.
4. Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
5. Let the other man save face.
6. Praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement.
7. Give people a fine reputation to live up to.
8. Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
9. Make other people happy about doing the thing you suggest.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/friends.html

Have a nice day!

 

[smartestnumber5]

Note to self. Add item to "To Do" list.

To be added: Forward copies of Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"......use the copy that has the important stuff underlined (like so).




http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/friends.html

Have a nice day!

Honestly, I edited out significant amount of snark from that post before I posted it.

It's just very frustrating to time and again be told by people who are unaffected by any gay rights issue that there is no difference between Obama and McCain's policies when in fact the differences could be of monumental importance in my own life.

But if you will read and consider the information from HRC, I will read and consider "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

 

[JenM]

I saw that.

Jon Stewart just did an entire episode about Palin's "pro America" comments tonight. He even had someone in Wasilla interviewing people, including one who used 9/11 as example of why small town people were better than New Yorkers.

 

[Goofyluver]

Jon Stewart just did an entire episode about Palin's "pro America" comments tonight. He even had someone in Wasilla interviewing people, including one who used 9/11 as example of why small town people were better than New Yorkers.

Should I even watch?

 

[Charade]

Obama said he doesn't support gay marriage.

 

[JenM]

Should I even watch?

Oh yeah, it was a good one. Especially the last segment when he clarified some remarks he made this weekend.

 

[mirmartinez]

He had to report how he was going to vote to your DH? Why is that?

He called because he is angry. He believes this matter should be decided by the states.

DH was not home so we talked about it.

 

[ChrizJen]

This is a matter of opinion....and as such, we all have them. IMO there is not much distance between the candidates when it comes to gay marriage or rights (uh, what extra rights are we talking about anyways?).

I don't see Sarah Palin standing between you and your children at all. If she was, I would oppose her. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness after all.

JMO

Let me tell you a story...
My partner (of 10 years) and I recently went through process to become foster/adoptive parents. We were told that because we live together, we would both be required to take all of the classes and tests, criminal/background checks, the psych evaluation, fingerprinting, the personal references, etc etc etc...
We were also told that by law, because we're not married, only one of us would be allowed to become licensed.

So OK, if that's the way we have to do it, then so be it. We really both want to be mothers, so this is what we'll do. So we had to decide which one of us would be the "parent" and which of us would just get to go through the motions. Not that it matters, but we ultimately decided that my partner would be the one with the license. I might just as well be her roomate according to the state. They know that we're a couple, but because we're not allowed to marry, we don't get the same rights.

So as smartestnumber5 said, when we do get a placement, she'll have all of the parental rights. If anything were to happen to "our" child, I wouldn't have visitation rights in a hospital unless my partner accompanied me.
If something were to happen to my partner, her family (or the state) would have every right to take "our" child away, and deny me visitation.

And before you say it (please don't say it)...
Yes, I COULD pay for an attorney and go through the process of getting papers drawn up that give me rights should something happen to her. But why should we have to? Why should I have to take extra steps (and extra monetary expense) just to ensure that I get the same rights as a married couple? That's all we're asking for, and McCain/Palin have both stated OPENLY that they are opposed to giving us those rights. (**ETA: Even with the legal papers, there are still rights that heterosexual married couples get that we would not get as a couple.)

So vote for McCain if he's your choice. That's your choice and I have no problem with that. But don't defend it to me on the grounds of equal rights, because there truly is no ground to stand on when it comes to McCain/Palin. And don't ask me to defend my choice. I think we've made it perfectly clear why we're choosing Obama.

 

[Mr Man]

Honestly, I edited out significant amount of snark from that post before I posted it.

It's just very frustrating to time and again be told by people who are unaffected by any gay rights issue that there is no difference between Obama and McCain's policies when in fact the differences could be of monumental importance in my own life.

But if you will read and consider the information from HRC, I will read and consider "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

.......snark editing........ Mine broke.

I will look at it tomorrow, promise.

 

[disneyjunkie]

LOL, Apparently some of the GOP don't see Californian's as Americans!

Or New Yorkers

 

[ChrisFL]

Right, real Americans live in a state between Canada and Russia and have significant others who want to secede from America, sound perfectly patriotic to me

 

[Cindy F]

Note to self. Add item to "To Do" list.

To be added: Forward copies of Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"......use the copy that has the important stuff underlined (like so).




http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/friends.html

Have a nice day!

IMHO, people generally have a hard time following the Carnegie rules when the heavy foot of a judgemental, intolerant nation is on the back of their neck.

 

[ChrizJen]

IMHO, people generally have a hard time following the Carnegie rules when the heavy foot of a judgemental, intolerant nation is on the back of their neck.

 

[Mr Man]

Let me tell you a story...
My partner (of 10 years) and I recently went through process to become foster/adoptive parents. We were told that because we live together, we would both be required to take all of the classes and tests, criminal/background checks, the psych evaluation, fingerprinting, the personal references, etc etc etc...
We were also told that by law, because we're not married, only one of us would be allowed to become licensed.

So OK, if that's the way we have to do it, then so be it. We really both want to be mothers, so this is what we'll do. So we had to decide which one of us would be the "parent" and which of us would just get to go through the motions. Not that it matters, but we ultimately decided that my partner would be the one with the license. I might just as well be her roomate according to the state. They know that we're a couple, but because we're not allowed to marry, we don't get the same rights.

So as smartestnumber5 said, when we do get a placement, she'll have all of the parental rights. If anything were to happen to "our" child, I wouldn't have visitation rights in a hospital unless my partner accompanied me.
If something were to happen to my partner, her family (or the state) would have every right to take "our" child away, and deny me visitation.

And before you say it (please don't say it)...
Yes, I COULD pay for an attorney and go through the process of getting papers drawn up that give me rights should something happen to her. But why should we have to? Why should I have to take extra steps (and extra monetary expense) just to ensure that I get the same rights as a married couple? That's all we're asking for, and McCain/Palin have both stated OPENLY that they are opposed to giving us those rights.

So vote for McCain if he's your choice. That's your choice and I have no problem with that. But don't defend it to me on the grounds of equal rights, because there truly is no ground to stand on when it comes to McCain/Palin. And don't ask me to defend my choice. I think we've made it perfectly clear why we're choosing Obama.

Thanks for taking the time to tell me about your experience (see, I was reading the Cliff's notes from his book ). Bureacracy.....UGH! That is a pain and unfair to boot. As a conservative I oppose bureacracy on principle. It is an unthinking, uncaring way of carrying out the will of the people. I want less of it (end infomercial).

DW and I have mutual life-long friends who are gay (they are dudes), have been in a committed relationship for nearly 12 years and have had the same kind of challenges in adopting a child you relate above (Texas does the one parent primary thing also). We were very proud when they asked us recently if we would be character references for them.

They went through a private referral agency in the Dallas area and it is costing them a good bit of money,time and sanity, but they will get their child. We can't wait til it happens (which could be literally any day now).

We ourselves are on a 3yr "glide path" to adopting a child (need to get the youngest one into school before we make the plunge though). It will cost us a good bit of $ also (but will be infinitely worth it).

There are bureacratic hurdles we all must cross. I say we work on removing these hurdles by removing Govt from every detail of our lives. this is the kind of change I am hoping for.

I guess what I am saying is, there are layers to us conservatives too......kinda like onions (am I allowed a Shrek reference on a Disney board?)

 

[minnie61650]

Well why would anybody actually bother listening to what gay people have to say about this stuff?

Clearly we don't know anything about gay rights and the candidates--I mean, we're just the people who have to live without the rights.

I must admit I learned a lot from your PP.
Thank you for helping me see a few things from your perspective.

I have always respected the gay rights movement but I never really understood how few rights gays actually had.

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.

 

[Master Mason]

She does have right to her opinion, and I respect that "right"... but not her actual opinion.

And that is completely fair.

 

[sarasotamom]

In the world that we love in today, I feel that this should not be an issue. Sarah Palin is very backwards in my opinion. Most straight people cannot get marriage right. Who are we to judge others. If two people love one another and are willing to commit to one another, regardless of their sexuality, they should be able to.

My daughter is currently going through a divorce, and my soon to be ex-son-in-law, is being such a jerk. I tell you, I loved him like a son before this. But now that she has decided to move on (she does not love hime anymore) he has turned into a babbling idiot. He hasn't given her any support for their son in 5 months (he says he will when a judge orders him to). He does nothing but cut her down to my grandson (which my grandson is getting very tired of hearing of).

I think if straight people can make such a mess of it, why not give gay people the same chance. No, all kidding aside, we all deserve the same rights, regardless of race, sexuality, religion, etc.....Palin makes it very hard to vote for McCain.