OT: ease my mind about immunizations!

[DVCLiz]

I just can't see taking someone's word for it without taking personal responsibility to learn more about it myself as well. This comes into play in all areas of life- all kinds of healthcare, finances, etc.

And I can't see why taking someone's word for it without doing independent research necessarily means I take no personal repsonsibility. I don't research the latest methods available to my mechanic - I just tell him what's wrong with my car and he fixes it. I don't research every mutual fund and individual stock my broker mentions - I tell him what my financial goals are and he utilizes the research his company has available and chooses investments that match my goals. I don't do strength testing of various concretes- I just tell my contractor I want a new driveway and he pours it.

I rely on professionals because I think they have a greater base of knowledge and a greater wealth of expereince than I do - or than I could ever achieve on my own. I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

[jodifla]

I'm not sure where you're getting this from... We have a wonderful pediatrician and I value his input a great deal. He stays on top of the latest research (not all doctors do this- I know because we used to have a ped who was not on top of things at all) and I've learned a lot in speaking with him and comparing notes.

But why do you think it is a bad thing to speak with your doctors AND do your own research?? Sure, it takes time, but I think it's a wise investment of your time to be as informed as possible
I guess I'm just missing why you think it's not worthwhile to be as educated as possible. I just can't see taking someone's word for it without taking personal responsibility to learn more about it myself as well. This comes into play in all areas of life- all kinds of healthcare, finances, etc.

Because too many people are MISUSING the exemptions. THEY ARE NOT for "just because I don't want to" in most cases. If a Christian Scientist is not vaccinating, that's one thing.

If I were you and didn't really want to be vaccinating my kids, I wouldn't be trying to recruit people. Once the government senses that not enough kids are being vaccinated, the exemptions will get much more stringent.

 

[emh1129]

Because too many people are MISUSING the exemptions. THEY ARE NOT for "just because I don't want to" in most cases. If a Christian Scientist is not vaccinating, that's one thing.

If I were you and didn't really want to be vaccinating my kids, I wouldn't be trying to recruit people. Once the government senses that not enough kids are being vaccinated, the exemptions will get much more stringent.

I'm not trying to recruit anybody. I think it's a very personal decision that takes a lot of thought. And we're all coming from different backgrounds, so it's only natural that we'd have some differing viewpoints.
We actually do vax, but we delay them. I just don't like the traditional schedule as it stands and my oldest had a reaction that made us leary of giving them at such a young age.
I think it will take a lot for government to remove the religious exemptions, and that's not likely to happen anytime soon, especially with so many questioning their safety & efficacy. And I think many people interpret religious exemption as in it's against their personal belief system to vaccinate- so belief system= religion. I don't have a religious exemption, so I haven't done this, but I know some do. It's a slippery slope when you start trying to define religions.

 

[Plantlady]

For those of you that have done the research, is there information about prevelence of autism in boys compared to girls?

It is more common in boys than girls. Something like 1 in 90 boys. It is 1 in 150 overall. I may be slightly off, but, those are close.

To the OP.

If I had it to do all over again, I would space out vaccines. No, I can't point to medical journals that back up this decision. I've read articles, work with autistic children, read books, watch shows. This is what I would do. This is what I recommended to my SIL, for my precious niece. Good luck with your decision.

 

[wtpntigger2]

I am wondering of all of you touting the wonders of vaccines and blaming the unvaxed kids for the spread of disease, how many of you are current on your vaccinations? You've had your MMR, DPT, and chicken pox (if not already immune) boosters, right? And on time, of course.

My dd was vaxed as an infant on a delayed schedule. She went in almost every month for the first year of her life to be vaxed. During this time I continued to research vaccines and their risk/benefits. In the end, I concluded that I felt the risks of the vaxes were greater than the benefits of them. I wasn't concerned about the mercury as it had been mostly taken out of vaxes, but the rest of the "poison" that the vaxes consist of caused me great concern (you ever read the ingredient list?). I am also wondering how much the increase in the number of vaxes kids now receive has created an increase in autoimmune disorders as well as asthma, diabetes, and ADHD which, as a special education teacher, I see being diagnosed at an alarming rate. What it comes down to, though, is that no longer vaxing is a decision my dh and I came to after much research.

As for doctors and their expertise, especially pediatricians, most of them receive very broad training and many regurgitate what they are taught in medical school without much thought or research on their own. For those of you so confident in your doctors advice, I am glad you have found doctors you can trust, but just remember what you call the person who graduates last in medical school - doctor.

So my advice is go with your mommy instinct and do the research if you are not sure about vaxes. It won't hurt to delay them for a while, but once injected, you can never take them back.

 

[wtpntigger2]

Because too many people are MISUSING the exemptions. THEY ARE NOT for "just because I don't want to" in most cases.

Actually, many states have philosophical exemptions which allow for this reasoning.

Once the government senses that not enough kids are being vaccinated, the exemptions will get much more stringent.

And you'd be against this, right? Because you don't want the government telling you how to parent. Or is that only in the case where you feel something is unnecessary, like say booster seats till your child is 8?

Just so you know, I am not trying to pick on your views because mine are basically the opposite of yours. I don't think the gov't belongs in my medical decisions for me or my family, however, I do agree with child restraint laws such as the one MI has instituted. I was just trying to point out a flaw in your reasoning even though my own has the same flaw and to show how we as parents should have the right to make what we feel are the best decisions for our family.

 

[LanaJae]

Any doctor will be the first to admit they know virtually nothing about why and how a body can turn against itself. If they could make it happen in a lab, they would.

The one thing they do know is that it has to do with antibodies. Most vaccines are antibodies. There is good cause for some parents, based on family history, to have concern about introducing antibodies to their child through a vaccination. Unfortunately, this group is growing drastically. Take peanut allergy for example - go to your local elementary and ask how many kids they had on file with a peanut allergy 5 years ago, and how many they have now. Then ask about asthma. Then dairy allergy or egg allergy.

I have four kids and they're all vaccinated with the exception of Gardasil. I am letting my daughters make that choice. I would never argue or be angry with anyone who chose otherwise. I only wish I had the resources listed in this thread when I was making decisions for my children. At the very least, knowing what types of reactions to watch for and making sure that your child is in optimal health would've helped. I remember with my oldest, I had him in for one of his 2000 ear infections and the nurse came in with a tray and said she was going to give him his shots (not yet due) since we were there. I told her no, he was too sick and had a fever and I didn't want to make him any worse. She told me it couldn't. I refused, she had a fit. I don't care how much schooling she had or that she was in the medical field, any of the parents on this thread know way more than she did! She was doing a robotic thing, looking at a list, knowing if he didn't have the vaccinations by a certain date, the board would get a report and she might be asked why they weren't given at his last appt.

I wipe out my out-of-control immune system every month with chemo drugs so I am grateful for the people who are vaccinated against the flu and other diseases, but if I happen to contract one, I am not going to blame a parent who made an informed decision not to vaccinate their child and the odds are that that parent wouldn't have their ill child in public either. I worry more about the people who don't bother.

 

[NMW]

There has been no statistical link proven between autism and vaccination.

The most common study that shows such a link was paid for by the attorney in charge of the case suing the pharmacutical companies - always know who paid for a study, it often skews the results. Those results have not held up to scientific scrutiny.

Vaccination is not proof against infection, but it is a HUGE shield against it. The interesting thing about vaccination is herd immunity. i.e. even if the vaccination doesn't work for me, you being vaccinated and therefore not getting the disease to pass on to me keeps me safe. This is especially important for people who can't be vaccinated due to immunosuppression - like kids with cancer.

Prior to vaccination, common childhood illnesses like measles, mumps and whooping cough killed thousands of people every year, and left many others severely ******** or disabled due to high fevers or weakened lungs. Many of these diseases can lead to sterility in men if they are contracted post puberty. These are viral illnesses - antibiotics won't help, your body simply needs to fight it off. The scary thing nowadays is that in fighting it off we put you in the hospital so you can stay hydrated with IVs, and that puts you at higher risk of being exposed to an antibiotic resistant bacteria.

A not uncommon side effect of choosing not to vaccinate is kids that travel as young adults getting ill. These diseases are more common in other parts of the world and people either assume they were vaccinated or believe that since they haven't gotten sick yet, they will continue to be safe.

Vaccines are not 100% safe, even if you aren't worried about autism. You need to decide where the greater risk lies. Personally, having done a little geneology work for my family, I see a family tree littered with the bodies of young children who died of measles or mumps or whooping cough or were disabled by polio - I vaccinate.

I really think people today including some in this thread think that illnesses like measles, whooping cough, etc. are "not really that bad." Well, research your family. DH and I did, and found lots of children that just simply died from whooping cough. It is a virus, so it's not treatable with antibiotics. We found others that live through the illnesses but suffered complications from them. My husbands grandmother had whooping cough as a young girl (age 5) and her 3 year old brother and newborn baby sister DIED of the whooping cough! So is whooping cough not that bad because only 2 of the 3 children in her family that had it at that time died?

I'm sorry, but if you don't vaccinate your children unless you have a serious medical exemption, you are endangering ALL children. You are counting on people like me, that DID vaccinate, to keep your child safe from illnesses. I would have no problem with the states making vaccines mandatory and doing away with "personal reasons" for not getting vaccines. There is NO evidence that vaccines cause autism-none. There is a lot of eveidence that illnesses kill children. The poster that said to go look at a turn of the century graveyard is correct.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

I understand where you are coming from but you do not seem to understand me. I was given a vaccine. Had a seizure that almost killed me. When my DD10 was newborn her doctor told me that those were the old ones and the new ones were safe. I did not do the research myself. She had the shots. She ended up having a seizure that almost killed her. It was a few hours after the shot...her doctor said coincidence. Try telling that to me when my DD was in the hopital and no one knew if she had permanent brain damage. She has not had another vaccine. My other kids have not had any shots either. I am willing to risk measles, mumps, chicken pox (previously childhood diseases that millions of adults walking among us have had) than possible killing my kids. I have not said to not get the vaccines. I have told parents that they need to be the parent and do their own research and not feel bullied into vaccines, by health professionals, if they feel that the benefit does not outweigh the risk.

If you had a seizure that almost killed you that you firmly believed was caused by a vaccine, why, when it came time for your chld to have the same vaccination, did you not do the research? You went through an experience of doctors almost killing you, and yet you repeated the procedure with your kid. Something for me does not make sense here. Is there more to the story?

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

I am wondering of all of you touting the wonders of vaccines and blaming the unvaxed kids for the spread of disease, how many of you are current on your vaccinations? You've had your MMR, DPT, and chicken pox (if not already immune) boosters, right? And on time, of course.

.

I am current on all my vaccines. I had the MMR shots redone when I went back to college in my mid 20's because my state requires it. I had a tetanus done last year because I stepped on a nail. I've had chicken pox as a kid and have immunity because of it. I've also traveled out of the country a few times and had the travel update shots. The only thing I can think of worse than catching something overseas is bringing it back over here to my community...

 

[hsmamato2]

Actually,no to a pp.....there isn't anyone else who cares about your kids health PERSONALLY like you do..... that's just human nature. Docs care about their patients in general(we hope) and vax companies care about making money. So it';s completely valid to say this- it's reality. Not that no one else would look out for your kids,but no one cares to the depth of a parent.
To put trust in either docs personal opinions or the vax companies slick brochures without question is foolish- to research both sides of issue,and make the best informed desicion you can is smart.
Docs are trained to treat illnesses,not prevent them- some are blind enough to believe that a shot will protect kids from all ills,that's not true.
Yes,many kids died in previous centuries,some from whooping cough,etc. A lot of those deaths were due to lack of hygeine,etc. No running water,bathrooms,soap for truly cleaning.... people just didn't know enough then to take precautions-
BTW, if you KNOW it's whooping cough early enough a round of stiff antibiotics will prevent others from getting it....
Much of what we now know is due to the medical community making great strides- but now we also have the knowledge to learn a lot ourselves also- I'd never think of saying I know what a doc knows in all things,that's why we visit them when we're ill,etc.
Polio was a scary disease,the vax is equally scary...just read a bit about what it CAN do to a kid....what if that kid was yours? is it worth it? as a parent,you have to choose risks/benefits.
Just knowing what some/many of these vaxes are created with/on is enough to make a person sick- they're not simply "tiny doses of the actual germs" that are just enough to create immunity,they are virulent toxins injected directly into immature immune systems of babies in HUGE amounts (how many at a time now?) and created with things you wouldn't want your kids touching with a ten foot pole.....
Catching measles naturally is a pain,but it's ONE disease,vs 5 or 6 at the SAME TIME.....
that's what made me personally stop and think..... That's why I chose a delayed/personalized schedule for my kids.

 

[Leonsmom]

If you had a seizure that almost killed you that you firmly believed was caused by a vaccine, why, when it came time for your chld to have the same vaccination, did you not do the research? You went through an experience of doctors almost killing you, and yet you repeated the procedure with your kid. Something for me does not make sense here. Is there more to the story?

I'd like to answer that for her as someone who doesn't even know her
She did it because her DOCTOR told her it was safe. There are limited resources out there for the general public, which is why we turn to the professionals. Sounds to me like that is exactly what she did.
It was that BAD CALL on the doctors part that led her to the conclusion that Parents need to do their own research. She has obviously learned from her horrible experiance, and is kind enough to share her SCARY experiance with us because perhaps had she heard this from someone else she would have done it differently. Hind sight is 20/20. As people and as parents we all make desicions we regret. Rather than question her, lets support her.
There was a time that people didn't question their doctors, but now a days we have to!
As far as the issue of vaccines are concerned.... there is NO definative answer. There have not been enough studies done to get a CONCLUSIVE answer. IMHO Too many doctors rely on what they are told by the drug companies, rather than look into some of the research themselves. For me a good doctor is one who listens and looks into the concerns of their patients rather than just give them the company line.
For me I went with when in doubt do without. My nephew has Autism and I do believe it was the result of the MMR - IN COMBINATION with other variables. One of those variables being that his mother suffers from an auto immune disease. It is believed that children of parents with auto-immune diseases are more likely to develop autism. No where has that been proven - but that doesn't make it untrue. It may take decades before we know for sure if ever what can trigger autism (and many other illnesses).
I myself suffer from an auto immune disease so am I going to accept the words of my son's doctor when he says "well they haven't proven that, i wouldn't let that concern you" Ummm, no I find myself a new doctor who will at least consider my concerns. In the end after researching (and still being confused, because research on both sides do make some strong points) my personal decision was to wait as long as possible to give my son a seperated MMR at 2 1/2 years old and when it comes time for a booster he will only get the measles as a second shot (rather than a second MMR), as a second mumps and rubella vaccine is not neccesary. Do i think this was the right decision........ I don't know - but I made the best decision I could with the resources I had.

Just my two cents.

 

[crisi]

And you'd be against this, right? Because you don't want the government telling you how to parent. Or is that only in the case where you feel something is unnecessary, like say booster seats till your child is 8?

I actually think that the government has a responsibility to protect the public health - sometimes that means enforcing things, like vaccinations, through law - with medical exceptions where vaccination is contraindicated. If we get to the point where herd immunity becomes problematic due to anti-vaxers, I think the government should step in to protect the majority. Car seats and seatbelts are a great example of this. We don't let people dump toxic materials down the drain. You can't bury your own dead in your backyard - even if home burial is a religious practice (as it is for some Native American tribes). We do have quarantine laws on the books - if you get ill with typhoid and want to walk around, we can throw you in jail (we just did with someone with an antibiotic resistant strain of TB who insisted on going out in public). I'm not sure why vaccinations should be an exception to public health policy.

 

[magic mouse]

I just told my doctor I was not comfortable getting that shot until my child was over 2. A few months later after my child turned 2 I went back to the doctors office and my child got the shot. My friend had told me she had done this so I just followed her advice..........

 

[Minniemouse07]

I actually think that the government has a responsibility to protect the public health - sometimes that means enforcing things, like vaccinations, through law - with medical exceptions where vaccination is contraindicated. If we get to the point where herd immunity becomes problematic due to anti-vaxers, I think the government should step in to protect the majority. Car seats and seatbelts are a great example of this. We don't let people dump toxic materials down the drain. You can't bury your own dead in your backyard - even if home burial is a religious practice (as it is for some Native American tribes). We do have quarantine laws on the books - if you get ill with typhoid and want to walk around, we can throw you in jail (we just did with someone with an antibiotic resistant strain of TB who insisted on going out in public). I'm not sure why vaccinations should be an exception to public health policy.

The comparison between the mandatory use of child restraints to vaccinations is NOT a fair one.

When I strap my child into a child restraint there isn't any danger to her...no side effects that may damage her health for the rest of her life or even worse.. kill her.

The car seat can be used incorrectly... so there are warnings about that...but you would be hard pressed to find a disclaimer in the instruction manual about a car seat being harmful to a child's health and welfare when used correctly!

When vaccines are as safe to use as car seats...I'll be okay w/ them being "mandatory" with no exceptions!

 

[Pennykay]

"We don't let people dump toxic materials down the drain."

Very interesting analogy considering that vaccines contain toxins and you're view is that we should allow our government to decide which ones we should have to INJECTED INTO OUR CHILDREN:

A BREAKDOWN OF WHAT IS IN VACCINES:
Diphtheria, Pertusiss, Tetanus vaccine
Cultured diphtheria bacterium, pertussis (whooping cough) organism and Tetanus Toxin.

>From modified Cohen-Wheeler broth

Sodium chloride

Sodium Hydroxide (also known as lye, caustic soda, soda lye.) Is corrosive and is an Eye, skin and respiratory irritant. Can burn eyes, skin and internal organs. Can cause lung and tissue damage, blindness and can be fatal if swallowed. Found in oven cleaners, tub and tile cleaners, toilet bowl cleaners and drain openers.

Formaldehyde: A neurotoxin and carcinogen (effects the nervous system and known to cause cancer.) May cause insomnia, coughing, headaches, nausea, nosebleeds, and skin rashes. Commonly known to embalm corpses. It has been said that there is no safe level of formaldehyde to be ingested into the body.

Hydrochloric acid: CAN DISTROY TISSUE UPON DIRECT CONTACT! Found in aluminum cleaners and rust removers.

Aluminum: toxic, cancerous.

Thimerosal: mercury derivative (contain mercury.) Extremely dangerous preservative. Made from a combination of Ethylene Glycol (AKA antifreeze!!!) and ethanol, thiosalicylic acid, sodium hydroxide and ethyl mercuric chloride. These chemicals are nerotoxic, dangerous, fatal and easily cause brain and liver damages. causes cancer.

Phosphates: suffocates all forms of aquatic life. Found in laundry and dishwasher detergent and cleaners.

Our government wants your child to receive 5 injections.

Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine
Live measles and mumps virus grown in cell cultures from chick embryos. Live rubella virus grown in human diploid cells (human aborted fetus) Wistar RA 27/2 strain grown in aborted fetus originating from the tissues of a fetus aborted in 1964 after the 25 year old mother developed rubella. Sorbital, neomycin antibiotic, hydrolyzed gelatin.

Also other preservatives, unknown to me which ones
The government wants your child to receive 2 shots of these 3 vaccines=15 !

Polio-live
Contains 3 types of live polio viruses. Grown in African green monkey kidney cell culture and calf serum.

Sorbital, neomycin antibiotic, streptomycin.

Polio-inactivated/dead
Contains 3 types of live polio viruses. Grown in African green monkey kidney cell culture and calf serum.

Sorbital, neomycin antibiotic, streptomycin.

Formaldehyde: A neurotoxin and carcinogen (effects the nervous system and known to cause cancer.) May cause insomnia, coughing, headaches, nausea, nosebleeds, and skin rashes. Commonly known to embalm corpses. It has been said that there is no safe level of formaldehyde to be ingested into the body.

Polynyxin B
The government wants your child to receive 4 servings of that.

HIB
Haemophilus influenzae type B

Sacchaarides

Aluminum: toxic, cancerous.

Thimerosal: mercury derivative (contain mercury.) Extremely dangerous preservative. Made from a combination of Ethylene Glycol (AKA antifreeze!!!) and ethanol, thiosalicylic acid, sodium hydroxide and ethyl mercuric chloride. These chemicals are nerotoxic, dangerous, fatal and easily cause brain and liver damages.

They want ya to vaccinate your child with this 4 times.

Hepatitis B
Derived from fermentation cultures of a recombinant strain of yeast containing the hepatitis gene.

Aluminum: toxic, cancerous.

Thimerosal: mercury derivative (does contain mercury.) Extremely dangerous preservative. Made from a combination of Ethylene Glycol (AKA antifreeze!!!) and ethanol, thiosalicylic acid, sodium hydroxide and ethyl mercuric chloride. These chemicals are nerotoxic, dangerous, fatal and easily cause brain and liver damages.

Formaldehyde: A neurotoxin and carcinogen (effects the nervous system and known to cause cancer.) May cause insomnia, coughing, headaches, nausea, nosebleeds, and skin rashes. Commonly known to embalm corpses. It has been said that there is no safe level of formaldehyde to be ingested into the body.

Note about this vaccine: is not approved by the FDA for use on newborns.

Vaccinate 3 injections

Varicella Zoster Ò–Chicken Pox
Varicella vaccine virus is a live vaccine created from the lung tissue of two aborted babies at three months gestation, one boy and one girl.

Sucrose
Monosodium Glutamate known as MSG: toxic preservative and flavor enhancer. Found in many foods especially Asian foods. Used as a stabilizer in vaccines. Prevents heat, light and acidity from changing the vaccine’s state.

Processed gelatin
Formaldehyde: A neurotoxin and carcinogen (effects the nervous system and known to cause cancer.) May cause insomnia, coughing, headaches, nausea, nosebleeds, and skin rashes. Commonly known to embalm corpses. It has been said that there is no safe level of formaldehyde to be ingested into the body.

Phosphates: suffocates all forms of aquatic life. Found in laundry and dishwasher detergent and cleaners.

Government says 3 doses of this vaccine

 

[kidshop]

If I were you and didn't really want to be vaccinating my kids, I wouldn't be trying to recruit people. Once the government senses that not enough kids are being vaccinated, the exemptions will get much more stringent.

Let's look at this in the spirit of the OP. She was hesitant and worried to give her 1 y/o the MMR. She was given the info that the shot does NOT have to be given at 1. There is range of ages, and it also can be further delayed. There is no harm in delaying, in fact some doctors even endorse this! The OP is being encouraged to research and educate herself, while also considering the recommendation to vaccinate. SHE can decide what is best for her child. This is not recruiting, this is encouraging education. It is only a good thing. It seems you are spreading the fear, not those who encourage others to look further into issues and decide for themselves.

 

[mookie]

And I can't see why taking someone's word for it without doing independent research necessarily means I take no personal repsonsibility. I don't research the latest methods available to my mechanic - I just tell him what's wrong with my car and he fixes it. I don't research every mutual fund and individual stock my broker mentions - I tell him what my financial goals are and he utilizes the research his company has available and chooses investments that match my goals. I don't do strength testing of various concretes- I just tell my contractor I want a new driveway and he pours it.

I rely on professionals because I think they have a greater base of knowledge and a greater wealth of expereince than I do - or than I could ever achieve on my own. I don't think that's a bad thing.

It's like this - something is wrong with your car. You take it in to get it fixed. You can do your research on if what the repair guy says is right or wrong, and form your own opinion on how you want to proceed with the repairs on your car. You can tell your mechanic "fix this, don't fix that, etc."

Same way with your dr. Yes, they AREN'T God. But they DID go through all those years of Med school for one reason or another. They don't just allow any schmuck into those medical programs....you have to at least have SOME sort of smarts. That is what gives them a "leg up" on treating us vs. treating ourselves. I don't disagree with searching the internet, but in the long run, you go to your dr because you trust him/her, and you know that they will probably have a better idea on how to "fix you" than you ever will. Same reason why you take your car to a mechanic and not fix it yourself.

There are plenty of drs out there - it's OUR JOB as parents to find one that aligns with our beliefs on how we should be "fixed." You wouldn't keep going to a mechanic for your car that doesn't want to do the repairs necessary for it to run....same thing with your dr.

 

[cjl]

Out of curiosity that arises whenever I read this debate, what is the difference between the vaccines we ourselves had as children and the ones given to our kids? Were they safer previously? Are there actually more vaccine injuries now or are they just reported more or what? What accounts for the discrepancy? Educate me.

-CJL, who used to play with the mercury that fell out of broken glass thermometers.

 

[mookie]

On a lighter note, I bet the OP is reeling even more over this question now that this thread is as long as it is!

First Lesson of the DIS: A Vaccine Thread will always lead to a lengthy answer from EVERYONE!!!!