OT: ease my mind about immunizations!

[GOOFY4DONALD]

You do understand that correlation does not mean causation and that there may be another variable at play? Most autism researchers suspect that variable is developmental age - which study after study DOES bear out.

The adults that I took care of were not autistic. They were develpomentally disabled. They were pardon me..mentally ********. There very well may have been another variable..or several. But how do you know that you or your children do not have the one thing that might cause the brain to shut down portions of it? I have had a reaction to shots. They do exist. More than anyone would like to think that they do. What scares me is that no health professional is willing to admit that it does happen. The scary thing is that even though autism and forms of retardation and very rare has anyone thought of all the changes that keep occuring with the vaccines. Live Polio was the only was to go..now it is dangerous to give live Polio. They keep changing. I just think that parents should do the research themselves and make their own decision. What doctors tell new parents with infants is totally different than it was 10 years ago and it will be totally different 10 years from now.

 

[JacobsMommy11002]

In all the research that you all have done (and I commend you for that) have you ever run across information regarding vaccines and adults? DD had her spleen removed and apparently has lost all of her immunizations, too. Immunologist wants to re-vaccinate her, but I'm not too sure. She does show an immunity to chicken pox; my kids all had chicken pox, the vaccine wasn't around back then.

Personally, I would do it. The spleen is responsible for much of a persons immunity. Without it, they are at a severe disadvantage and very high risk if they contract anything.

 

[hsmamato2]

When my kids were babies,I instinctively knew the vax schedule was insane. How could my 8 lb. baby need the same batch of shots as a 35 lb. toddler? How did this make any sense? my docs were honest with me and explained it's set up to 'catch' all kids,as they figure parents just stop caring about their kids health as they get older.
So I did my homework,and made my decisions. I decided the schedule of vaxes,and also the benefit/risk ratio of each. Some,I decided weren't worth the risks involved,others seemed to be worth it.
Why did my tiny newborn need to be vaxed for a sexually transmitted disease,which neither of his parents had? (so he wouldn't go out,find a girl and get the disease in his teens,BTW)
My point is this, there are many experts out there to *help* us make decisions for our families. But ultimately,it's up to parents to research,and decide what to do.
Honestly,there is evidence on the pro and con side - facts are that even with full vaxed populations the same old diseases still show up regularly. The shots aren't 100%- and some are not worth the risks and questions,while I believe others are.
(with my kids, the one who didn't get DTP shots after his 1st BAD reaction,didn't get whooping cough when it swept through,conversely,2nd child HAD been vaxed,and he caught it.go figure.)
I made darn sure the MMR was given well after the 2nd birthday though,I was wary of the party line" it seems to spontaneously occur in 18 month old kids,which is coincidentaly the age for the shot"........more like close to 3 years old

 

[jodifla]

The adults that I took care of were not autistic. They were develpomentally disabled. They were pardon me..mentally ********. There very well may have been another variable..or several. But how do you know that you or your children do not have the one thing that might cause the brain to shut down portions of it? I have had a reaction to shots. They do exist. More than anyone would like to think that they do. What scares me is that no health professional is willing to admit that it does happen. The scary thing is that even though autism and forms of retardation and very rare has anyone thought of all the changes that keep occuring with the vaccines. Live Polio was the only was to go..now it is dangerous to give live Polio. They keep changing. I just think that parents should do the research themselves and make their own decision. What doctors tell new parents with infants is totally different than it was 10 years ago and it will be totally different 10 years from now.

And what about the other 375?

One of my best friends babysit in college for a girl who was born completely normal, but developed a skyhigh fever from one of the allegedly "benign childhood" diseases...she never developed beyond the age of an 18 month old.

They developed those vaccines for a reason, and anybody who visits a turn of the century graveyard could tell why.

 

[DVCLiz]

Giving vaccines should be something that you look into yourself. Doctors are biased so asking their opinion will not help. Do the reasearch yourself and make an informed decision, either way.

This is the kind of thinking I just cannot understand. Doctors are TRAINED MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS and I would always, ALWAYS consider their advice as the most valid research I could do.

 

[crisi]

The adults that I took care of were not autistic. They were develpomentally disabled. They were pardon me..mentally ********. There very well may have been another variable..or several. But how do you know that you or your children do not have the one thing that might cause the brain to shut down portions of it? I have had a reaction to shots. They do exist. More than anyone would like to think that they do. What scares me is that no health professional is willing to admit that it does happen. The scary thing is that even though autism and forms of retardation and very rare has anyone thought of all the changes that keep occuring with the vaccines. Live Polio was the only was to go..now it is dangerous to give live Polio. They keep changing. I just think that parents should do the research themselves and make their own decision. What doctors tell new parents with infants is totally different than it was 10 years ago and it will be totally different 10 years from now.

You don't. How do you know your kid won't get measles and end up blind? Or get polio and end up dead? Or mumps and end up infertile? Chicken Pox and end up brain damaged? We know, statistically through almost a hundred years of epidemology, that while vaccines do carry risk, they carry a very small degree of risk in comparision to the diseases they protect you from.

Airbags kill people. And airbags save lives. They save far more lives than they take, therefore, I wouldn't dream of disabling the airbags in my car.

If you want to try and live a riskless life, go for it. Me, I sort of figure everything I do involves risks, so I try and manage the risks in my life - keep them small. Vaccinations have a small risk. Disease has a much larger one. Driving in a car is risky, wearing a seatbelt, following traffic laws, and not driving when I am tired or have just taken cold medicine lowers that risk.

 

[GOOFY4DONALD]

And what about the other 375?

One of my best friends babysit in college for a girl who was born completely normal, but developed a skyhigh fever from one of the allegedly "benign childhood" diseases...she never developed beyond the age of an 18 month old.

They developed those vaccines for a reason, and anybody who visits a turn of the century graveyard could tell why.

25 adults that were born normal was enough for me. If my child was born normal and then got her first shots at age 5, right before school. Goes to sleep. You wake in the middle of the night to something crashing in your child's room. She is havuing a seizure. She is rushed to the ER ..by this time she is unconscious. She is in a coma. When she does finally wake (2 days later) she cannot speak. She does not understand you. After many tests you are told she will never be normal again. She has the mentality of a 8 month old child. Is this normal. Of course not. Is it rare. ABSOLUTELY. But it is a true story of one of the women that I took care of. This is probably a 1 out of a million cases. But what if your child was the one? Would you say oh well it is so rare. Of course not. Would you think it was a freak of nature? Would you blame the vaccine? Yes

 

[GOOFY4DONALD]

You don't. How do you know your kid won't get measles and end up blind? Or get polio and end up dead? Or mumps and end up infertile? Chicken Pox and end up brain damaged? We know, statistically through almost a hundred years of epidemology, that while vaccines do carry risk, they carry a very small degree of risk in comparision to the diseases they protect you from.

Airbags kill people. And airbags save lives. They save far more lives than they take, therefore, I wouldn't dream of disabling the airbags in my car.

If you want to try and live a riskless life, go for it. Me, I sort of figure everything I do involves risks, so I try and manage the risks in my life - keep them small. Vaccinations have a small risk. Disease has a much larger one. Driving in a car is risky, wearing a seatbelt, following traffic laws, and not driving when I am tired or have just taken cold medicine lowers that risk.

I understand where you are coming from but you do not seem to understand me. I was given a vaccine. Had a seizure that almost killed me. When my DD10 was newborn her doctor told me that those were the old ones and the new ones were safe. I did not do the research myself. She had the shots. She ended up having a seizure that almost killed her. It was a few hours after the shot...her doctor said coincidence. Try telling that to me when my DD was in the hopital and no one knew if she had permanent brain damage. She has not had another vaccine. My other kids have not had any shots either. I am willing to risk measles, mumps, chicken pox (previously childhood diseases that millions of adults walking among us have had) than possible killing my kids. I have not said to not get the vaccines. I have told parents that they need to be the parent and do their own research and not feel bullied into vaccines, by health professionals, if they feel that the benefit does not outweigh the risk.

 

[GOOFY4DONALD]

This is the kind of thinking I just cannot understand. Doctors are TRAINED MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS and I would always, ALWAYS consider their advice as the most valid research I could do.

Doctors are trained medical professionals but they do not know everything. My DD's doctor told me that I should stop breastfeeding by 1 year or she will have separation issues. My son's doctor (2 years later and a different doctor) told me by age 2 is best. Both were doctors..who is right? There is no one right answer that all doctors know about everything. That is why they 2nd opinions are usually offered. Vaccines are a BIG business. Why do you think Garasil commercials are on the TV all the time? Because the health care industry is so concerned with our youth? They make tons of money. If you go to any doctor they have constant advertisements of the newest mediaction or vaccine all over the office. People are putting all of this stuff in their bodies (Just because a doctor said so) and then they find out later that it is being pulled off the shelf or there are lawsuits. I am not saying get vaccines or don't get vaccines just do your homework. If the benefits outweigh the risk..do it. But if they don't ...then don't.

 

[DVCLiz]

Doctors are trained medical professionals but they do not know everything. My DD's doctor told me that I should stop breastfeeding by 1 year or she will have separation issues. My son's doctor (2 years later and a different doctor) told me by age 2 is best. Both were doctors..who is right? There is no one right answer that all doctors know about everything. That is why they 2nd opinions are usually offered. Vaccines are a BIG business. Why do you think Garasil commercials are on the TV all the time? Because the health care industry is so concerned with our youth? They make tons of money. If you go to any doctor they have constant advertisements of the newest mediaction or vaccine all over the office. People are putting all of this stuff in their bodies (Just because a doctor said so) and then they find out later that it is being pulled off the shelf or there are lawsuits. I am not saying get vaccines or don't get vaccines just do your homework. If the benefits outweigh the risk..do it. But if they don't ...then don't.

No, they don't know everything, but they know far more than I do, and they have the benefit of a professional training and the resources of the medical profession to keep them up to date on advances in medical science. To dismiss them as simply "biased" makes it sound as though they are dangerous sources of misinformation who should be ignored in favor of the research the average citizen can and will do - which is most often either a book - written by an author whose agenda may or may not be clear - or on the internet - where a site can be based on anything the web site owner wants it to.

I still put my money on the professionals who have some training.

 

[emh1129]

This is the kind of thinking I just cannot understand. Doctors are TRAINED MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS and I would always, ALWAYS consider their advice as the most valid research I could do.

That is really scary. You're blindly putting all your trust in another individual simply based on a degree? These are your children you're speaking about.. nobody will ever care as much about their well-being as you do.
You do understand that, even within the medical community, there is a wide range of opinions on this topic? Our own pediatrician agrees with our delayed/selective vax stance. Listening to one doctor's opinion does not constitute valid research.
Education is never a bad thing- do the research yourself. Consult with your doctor. Ask questions. Don't just take someone else's word for it. This is a serious topic, it's worth your time.. your children are worth it. I'm not saying that you shouldn't agree with your doctor, just that you should know why you agree with them.

 

[Kickapoo Joie Juice]

That is really scary. You're blindly putting all your trust in another individual simply based on a degree? These are your children you're speaking about.. nobody will ever care as much about their well-being as you do.
You do understand that, even within the medical community, there is a wide range of opinions on this topic? Our own pediatrician agrees with our delayed/selective vax stance. Listening to one doctor's opinion does not constitute valid research.
Education is never a bad thing- do the research yourself. Consult with your doctor. Ask questions. Don't just take someone else's word for it. This is a serious topic, it's worth your time.. your children are worth it. I'm not saying that you shouldn't agree with your doctor, just that you should know why you agree with them.

No, she specifically said "consider", not "blindy put all her trust".

 

[DVCLiz]

That is really scary. You're blindly putting all your trust in another individual simply based on a degree? These are your children you're speaking about.. nobody will ever care as much about their well-being as you do.
You do understand that, even within the medical community, there is a wide range of opinions on this topic? Our own pediatrician agrees with our delayed/selective vax stance. Listening to one doctor's opinion does not constitute valid research.
Education is never a bad thing- do the research yourself. Consult with your doctor. Ask questions. Don't just take someone else's word for it. This is a serious topic, it's worth your time.. your children are worth it. I'm not saying that you shouldn't agree with your doctor, just that you should know why you agree with them.

This kind of respsonse is what is really scary to me. Numnber one, I think it's absurd to say that nobody will ever care as much about my child's well being as I do. That's a ridiuclous statement - of course there are many people who care every bit as much as we do about our children. Number two, listening to one doctor's opinion does constitute valid research - if I am comfortable with the doctor's training and level of experience.

Is there a new parenting philospohy that I missed along the way that says parents who rely on traditional medical doctors are bad parents and the ones who make their own decisions based on their mothering groups and the web are the better ones? If so, I'm glad I missed that...

 

[crisi]

I understand where you are coming from but you do not seem to understand me. I was given a vaccine. Had a seizure that almost killed me. When my DD10 was newborn her doctor told me that those were the old ones and the new ones were safe. I did not do the research myself. She had the shots. She ended up having a seizure that almost killed her. It was a few hours after the shot...her doctor said coincidence. Try telling that to me when my DD was in the hopital and no one knew if she had permanent brain damage. She has not had another vaccine. My other kids have not had any shots either. I am willing to risk measles, mumps, chicken pox (previously childhood diseases that millions of adults walking among us have had) than possible killing my kids. I have not said to not get the vaccines. I have told parents that they need to be the parent and do their own research and not feel bullied into vaccines, by health professionals, if they feel that the benefit does not outweigh the risk.

No, I understand you. That is the nature of risk - and the issue with statistics. If there is a 1 in 1,000,000 chance something will happen - someone will be that 1. However, there is still a better chance of ending up with severe issues or death as a result of the disease than as a result of the vaccination. Note that I'm not saying that you have to get the vaccination, I'm saying I play the lowest risk option.

 

[jodifla]

That is really scary. You're blindly putting all your trust in another individual simply based on a degree? These are your children you're speaking about.. nobody will ever care as much about their well-being as you do.
You do understand that, even within the medical community, there is a wide range of opinions on this topic? Our own pediatrician agrees with our delayed/selective vax stance. Listening to one doctor's opinion does not constitute valid research.
Education is never a bad thing- do the research yourself. Consult with your doctor. Ask questions. Don't just take someone else's word for it. This is a serious topic, it's worth your time.. your children are worth it. I'm not saying that you shouldn't agree with your doctor, just that you should know why you agree with them.

To me, what's really scary is all the kids going without vaccines because their mom read some web site and decided she was a medical expert!

I can't think of anyone who suggested that those with a medical problem with vaccines should be forced to get one.

ALL DRUGS have danger. And so do the diseases!

 

[Minniemouse07]

No, they don't know everything, but they know far more than I do, and they have the benefit of a professional training and the resources of the medical profession to keep them up to date on advances in medical science. To dismiss them as simply "biased" makes it sound as though they are dangerous sources of misinformation who should be ignored in favor of the research the average citizen can and will do - which is most often either a book - written by an author whose agenda may or may not be clear - or on the internet - where a site can be based on anything the web site owner wants it to.

I still put my money on the professionals who have some training.

Ask your doctor when the last time was that they read a study on vaccine safety...or efficacy? I did ask... I also learned that in my discussions with dd's first two pediatrician practices that I definitely knew a lot more about vaccines than they did.

I knew more because of the books on my shelf, the journal articles I've read and the research I have done. I read EVERYTHING I can on vaccines...from both camps (both pro and anti vax). The peds at both of those practices...along with our current practice will admit to you that I am better read on vaccines than they are.

Doctors do not have TIME to read any more than the news bits that you and I hear coupled with the information that is provided to them by the AAP or insurance companies. If they are reading about recent studies they are generally reading the abstracts of the research papers...not the entire study. Generally the sources that the doctors are getting their info from are just as biased as the ones you mentioned.

Almost every source that I've looked at is biased in some way... it is necessary to cull through the info and read it knowing the bias and taking it into account.

I learned a very long time ago that doctors are not God. They are not the source of all information and the information they do have is not always correct.

Unfortunately, I learned it the hard way. My mother had breast cancer for ten years. Her drs kept her alive for that long...but they definitely made some mistakes along the way. I learned that it is MY responsibility for MY family's health care. I listen to the drs, do my own research, talk to them again and go elsewhere if I don't have full confidence in them. My mom didn't do that until it was too late, I don't plan on making the same mistake!

 

[emh1129]

Is there a new parenting philospohy that I missed along the way that says parents who rely on traditional medical doctors are bad parents and the ones who make their own decisions based on their mothering groups and the web are the better ones? If so, I'm glad I missed that...

I'm not sure where you're getting this from... We have a wonderful pediatrician and I value his input a great deal. He stays on top of the latest research (not all doctors do this- I know because we used to have a ped who was not on top of things at all) and I've learned a lot in speaking with him and comparing notes.

But why do you think it is a bad thing to speak with your doctors AND do your own research?? Sure, it takes time, but I think it's a wise investment of your time to be as informed as possible
I guess I'm just missing why you think it's not worthwhile to be as educated as possible. I just can't see taking someone's word for it without taking personal responsibility to learn more about it myself as well. This comes into play in all areas of life- all kinds of healthcare, finances, etc.

 

[emh1129]

ALL DRUGS have danger. And so do the diseases!

Exactly. That's why it's important to do the research and compare the risk/benefits for each one.

 

[DVCLiz]

I'm not sure where you're getting this from... We have a wonderful pediatrician and I value his input a great deal. He stays on top of the latest research (not all doctors do this- I know because we used to have a ped who was not on top of things at all) and I've learned a lot in speaking with him and comparing notes.

But why do you think it is a bad thing to speak with your doctors AND do your own research?? Sure, it takes time, but I think it's a wise investment of your time to at least know what's going on with your children
I guess I'm just missing why you think it's not worthwhile to be informed.

Really, I have no idea what's going on with my children - I just blithely send them out each day and keep my fingers crossed that someone will take pity on them and lead them down the right path. I suppose after nineteen years as a parent I have to admit I did it wrong all those years.

I don't think my independent research is as worthwhile when making a medical decision as my reliance on a professional medical doctor. I'm not trained to that degree and I would never rely on anything I read independently - especially the opinions of other mothers who have their own agendas that aren't in the best interest of my child. I'm sorry you are confused about that - I don't know how to make it any clearer.

 

[emh1129]

Really, I have no idea what's going on with my children - I just blithely send them out each day and keep my fingers crossed that someone will take pity on them and lead them down the right path. I suppose after nineteen years as a parent I have to admit I did it wrong all those years.

I actually edited that as soon as I posted it because I realize it didn't come across as I intended- sorry for that