OT - 2nd grade discipline?

[jinia]

To make a long story um...not as long:
DS 7 is getting in trouble for talking in class (not backtalking - calling out answers or just plain socializing) for which he has to move his card. The punishments are a warning, missing 1, 5, 10 minutes of recess, to a call home. Two weeks ago I found out that when he missed 10 minutes on several occassions he had to stand on the concrete playground on a crack in full sun (2:40 in the afternoon) for that time. I found this out after he had to lie down when he got home one day because he was sick. I asked him why did he think he was sick and he said "It was hot when I was standing on the crack and they wouldn't let me get a drink." Once I finally figured it out I spoke to the vice principal and she agreed it was inappropriate and said that kids in timeout could stand under a tree. Found out that it happened again after the vice principal spoke with the second grade "team" so I will be at the school tomorrow. I was wondering how 2nd graders are punished elsewhere? Punishing with the elements can't be the norm right? My peditrician said if I did this child protective services would be called. Not really enjoying this school year....

 

[mjkacmom]

Who is doing the punishing? If it's his teacher, your first mistake was going over her head to her boss. When dealing with school issues, always follow the chain of command. If this was my child, my biggest concern would be why my child was misbehaving so often, and I would've already set up a conference with the teacher.

 

[karliebug]

Our school uses a similar timeout, children stand for 5 or 10 minutes while others play. As for getting a drink, where was he supposed to get one? Most classes get a drink break when they come in on hot days. I don't think being in the sun for 10 minutes would make hime sick. I , too, would be more concerned about what he is doing to get in trouble so often the first month of school.

 

[dopeysgirl01]

My kids' school seems to have a similar punishment system. We live in Florida and no matter what my kids did if they had to stand in the sun for ten minutes without a drink I'd be furious. If they misbehave there are plenty of shaded spots that the teacher will use for them to miss time out on recess. That being said, I'd talk directly to the teacher as someone else mentioned. There could be another side to the situation. Good luck!

 

[WantToGoNow]

My ds8 is in 3rd grade and they have a similiar discipline for classroom misbehaviors. Except for 1-5-10 minutes, it is a set 10 minutes (except for the teacher yesterday that forgot and left them for 20). My ds has missed 4 recesses now - including yesterday. He got it yesterday for figuring his math problems out-loud and the teacher said he was talking. I just asked ds where he had to stand and he said beside the poles (basketball court) - those are in direct sunlight as well. The way I see it, if he was running around and playing, he would be in the sun. The idea is to teach the kids that they don't want to stand in time-out. My ds will probably spend more time next to that pole than he will playing on the playground.

 

[zoemurr]

said that after 2 warnings you miss 5 min, 2 more is 10 min etc.

He said there is a bench under a tree you have to sit on. But we live in Upstate NY and there is seldom 10min of full sun here anyway.

I would definitely talk to the teacher, and also see if you can volunteer in the classroom a bunch to see if you can figure out the dynamic between the two. Perhaps you can work with her to set up a positive reinforcement system.

While I'm not sure standing in the sun is appropriate, I can't see that 10min is a health risk either, and am surprised by your peds comment. We spent a lot more than that in outdoor lines in WDW in Aug and we were fine, and I don't think they felt "abused". Is the rest of the playground completely shaded? Wouldn't he be out playing in the sun? Are kids usually allowed to go in for a drink during this time? My DS said you would just have to wait.

It does seem that your son and the teacher have gotten off on the wrong foot. I would try to work with her though, and not against her. Ask if she'll keep a simple log of his misbehavior. I would also have him write her an apology note each time you feel it is necessary.

Good luck! Keep us posted..

 

[jinia]

Thank you for all your responses!
First - you bet I am concerned about how often he is in trouble! The previous two years he rarely got in trouble but when he did it was for talking. Never any mouthing off - usually calling out the answers or talking to his neighbor when he is supposed to be reading to himself.
Second - Of course after the first week I requested a Conference and when the request was ignored- thats when I spoke to the Vice Principal - only after his teacher didn't reply. She said he is a good natured, well mannered kid who just likes to chat because he is happy. That it was not a huge deal that he kept getting in trouble and when I asked what I could do to work with her she said "Nothing, just remind him to raise his hand."
Third - So we instituted a reward chart here at home. If he gets his sticker for four out of five days then he gets some sort of kids meal on friday. They get a daily sticker thats lets you know how the day went.
Fourth - My problem is being punished with the elements is what has gotten outlawed in boot camp/football camps ect. The day he got sick was the first day in a little over a year he needed to use his inhaler- so big deal to me. Have him write sentences, wait under a tree, sit in the principals office, or something that works because this obviously doesn't work. My peditrician said something because she is right - using the elements for punishment is a form of child abuse. Walking around in the sun is different with the way your sweat evaporates and yep they can go in for a drink unless there in trouble.
I just worry that the punishment doesn't fit the crime so to speak.....

 

[okeydokey]

Sitting out recess is always the first consequence here too. The teacher (or aide) needs to have your son in a location where she can see him while still supervising the other 20 kids out at recess. Is is shady there? I can feel her frustration with your son calling out during class. It is very distracting to her and the other student's trying to learn. I think you are on the right track with working on a positive reward system at home. We did this when my DD was in first and liked to chat with her friend in class. We also did consequences at home if she did pull a tab (or move her card). The first day in any given week was bed 10 minutes early. If it happened again that same week it was bed early 10 minutes and no TV after dinner. If happened a third time it was bed 10 minutes early, no TV after dinner and no playing with her friend after school etc. The next week the slate is wiped clean and we started over. If she made the whole week with no tabs, it was a treat. Worked very well.

 

[K and K's Mommy]

I am a former second grade teacher. We used recess time outs. I haven't taught for eight years, but I don't remember there being shade on my playground. The kids usually sat on a bench though.

We also couldn't allow kids to go get drinks during the 15-20 minutes of recess. They could get drinks before or after, but it would be too disruptive for kids going in and out during recess.

IMO, writing sentences is mindless and a waste of time. I never used it, but I have seen kids get in a pattern and really have no idea what they are writing. Our principal would not have liked it if we sent him someone who was talkative. He was more for the major offenses. I suppose he might be able to just sit where secretaries could keep an eye on him. The teacher could also team with another teacher who has a different recess time. That said, if you think it is making his sick, perhaps he could just sit instead of stand. Although, the desired outcome is that he has learned his lesson and will not have time-out anymore!

 

[princessmom29]

10 min standing in the sun shouldn't be making a healthy child sick. I think you need to look for other causes there. That being said, if there is a shady spot where they can be supervised then that is where they should be. but i would suspect that this is not the case. I don't see this as "punishing with the elemebts" at all. It is sitting out of recess. It is not like he had to stand there for an hour, and every other kid is in that same sun, the only difference is that they are moving around playing, and would be suffering even more form its effects. I can see not letting them get a drink. Who is going to watch the other kids while someone goies in with this kid, and then that kid to get adrink?

 

[AntePrincess]

Football camps and even prison systems have "banned" punishing with the elements, yes. But then again, they weren't having the miscreant stand for ten minutes in the sun, we're talking about hours of sitting in the heat for them. In addition to addressing the misbehavior with him, I'd remind him not to lock his knees while he's in time out if he doesn't want to feel sick and faint.

 

[stace1214]

I teach 2nd grade, or I did before my maternity leave started... it's pretty typical to have a card system like you mentioned with time coming off recess every time the card is moved.At my school there are places for children who are in time out to sit. Our playground does not have any shade, so yes, the kids do have to sit in the sun if they have to sit out. I would be concerned that your son is getting sick after ten minutes in the sun. If he was playing during that ten minutes he would not only be in the sun, but running around too. As far as getting drinks go, when I'm outside with my class there is no one available to run children inside to get a drink. It would be unsafe to send a child in unsupervised.

 

[mjkacmom]

IMO, writing sentences is mindless and a waste of time. I never used it, but I have seen kids get in a pattern and really have no idea what they are writing. !

We have a 3rd grade teacher who requires the children who get on a red card to write their multiplication tables - dd finally learned them!

 

[Leajess99]

I'm sorry but it seems to me as you don't want your child punished at all. I have a child who would yell out the answer but she learned with help that it is not appropriate. If your son chooses to keep talking than he must not be missing out on playing at recess. Now that he knows he has you "playing the fool" (as some call it around here) and running to the principal to get his way, he is even less likely to follow the rules. I know how some kids can try to play their parents (have a son who tried it but got caught) and there is no way your son should be getting sick from 10 minutes of standing in the sun. I would believe it more if he were running around in 100 plus degree temps but not just standing. My daughter was in the sun not playing for over a week because she was not allowed to play due to having surgery 3 weeks prior and she does have asthma as well and there was no where else to place her. Poor kid was stuck with those kids in timeout but was not in timeout. The temps at the time were in the high 80s/low 90s.
Your child talking in class is a disruption to the other students and the teacher. Standing for 10 minutes in the sun is not child abuse nor neglect and no, CPS would not take your child for that. It seems that a dramatic ploy is being played. BTW, soldiers stand in the sun for way more than 10 minutes during change of command and other ceremonies. Prisoners also stand in the sun during outside time for more than 10 minutes. Look at the prisoners in Arizona living in tents in the high temps. http://forums.canadiancontent.net/news/61682-inside-americas-toughest-jail-tent.html

 

[Hannathy]

Our kids have the same punishment except they are against a brick wall in full sun. No drinks either.

What are you going to do in the winter. Standing in -2 is worse than a bit of sun and the kids around here live.

IMO quit running over the teachers head to defend him so quickly, let him take his punishment.

 

[Mouse House Mama]

Our school uses a similar timeout, children stand for 5 or 10 minutes while others play. As for getting a drink, where was he supposed to get one? Most classes get a drink break when they come in on hot days. I don't think being in the sun for 10 minutes would make hime sick. I , too, would be more concerned about what he is doing to get in trouble so often the first month of school.

I agree. It's 10 minutes. It is also not the dead of summer unless you live on the equator. To me it sounds like he got in trouble and then started the whole "I'm so hot! I need a drink!" whine and there are no drinks on the playground anywhat. I as a parent would be more concerned that my child was not listening. I guess I am mean because I don't think 10 minutes in the sun is a huge deal. I would tell my kid that if they behaved then they wouldn't be standing there. Do they only play outside in full shade? Is the playground completely shaded and your sun was banished to the sun? I hate to say it but I think the bigger problem is that he is getting in a lot of trouble and school has barely even been in session.

ETA- I think saying he is being "punished with/by the elements" is so over the top. Standing on the playground instead of running around for 10 minutes is not even close to corporal punishment and it makes you sound silly if that is what you are telling the principal and teachers.

 

[tinkermom23]

I sympathize with you. It is very hard to hear your child is being punished for misbehaving. We all wish our kids would do what they are suppose to and stop doing what they shouldn't be doing.
My DS9 has been in school just over 2 weeks and I have had 3 emails from his teacher already so I know how you feel!
One thing that really helps us is when DS knows that his teachers and his parents are a team. He knows that we all want him to have a great year. Hopefully you can make things work with this teacher.
Good Luck!!!

 

[Erin1700]

I didnt have time to read all of the responses, but my first thought is...if he wouldnt be made to sit out of recess, wouldnt he be spending recess running around in the sun??

 

[3"Mouse"keteers]

Thank you for all your responses!
First - you bet I am concerned about how often he is in trouble! The previous two years he rarely got in trouble but when he did it was for talking. Never any mouthing off - usually calling out the answers or talking to his neighbor when he is supposed to be reading to himself.
Second - Of course after the first week I requested a Conference and when the request was ignored- thats when I spoke to the Vice Principal - only after his teacher didn't reply. She said he is a good natured, well mannered kid who just likes to chat because he is happy. That it was not a huge deal that he kept getting in trouble and when I asked what I could do to work with her she said "Nothing, just remind him to raise his hand."
Third - So we instituted a reward chart here at home. If he gets his sticker for four out of five days then he gets some sort of kids meal on friday. They get a daily sticker thats lets you know how the day went.
Fourth - My problem is being punished with the elements is what has gotten outlawed in boot camp/football camps ect. The day he got sick was the first day in a little over a year he needed to use his inhaler- so big deal to me. Have him write sentences, wait under a tree, sit in the principals office, or something that works because this obviously doesn't work. My peditrician said something because she is right - using the elements for punishment is a form of child abuse. Walking around in the sun is different with the way your sweat evaporates and yep they can go in for a drink unless there in trouble.
I just worry that the punishment doesn't fit the crime so to speak.....

So if she made him walk laps around the playground instead, you wouldn't have a problem with it? I somehow doubt that would be anymore okay. There's no way you can claim that standing still in the direct sunlight is worse than a child running and playing in the direct sunlight. In our district, we aren't allowed to go out if the heat index is too high so the kids don't get sick. I'm sure most schools are that way.

 

[3"Mouse"keteers]

I agree. It's 10 minutes. It is also not the dead of summer unless you live on the equator. To me it sounds like he got in trouble and then started the whole "I'm so hot! I need a drink!" whine and there are no drinks on the playground anywhat. I as a parent would be more concerned that my child was not listening. I guess I am mean because I don't think 10 minutes in the sun is a huge deal. I would tell my kid that if they behaved then they wouldn't be standing there. Do they only play outside in full shade? Is the playground completely shaded and your sun was banished to the sun? I hate to say it but I think the bigger problem is that he is getting in a lot of trouble and school has barely even been in session.

ETA- I think saying he is being "punished with/by the elements" is so over the top. Standing on the playground instead of running around for 10 minutes is not even close to corporal punishment and it makes you sound silly if that is what you are telling the principal and teachers.

You are also undermining his teacher by going along with him, which is only going to make him act up worse.