Once again, a school, a shooter....and we do the drill yet again.....

[CdnCarrie]

Then from whom are the children learning....or NOT learning....values?

Really we had a nasty thread about this. Kids do have values. Are you really implying all kids don't have values?
Are you not teaching your kids values?

 

[Kennywood]

I never said that kids don't have values. I asked from whom those kids are learning....or not learning...their values.

 

[CdnCarrie]

I never said that kids don't have values. I asked from whom those kids are learning....or not learning...their values.

I could ask the same of your generation.

 

[GreatLakes]

Really we had a nasty thread about this. Kids do have values. Are you really implying all kids don't have values?
Are you not teaching your kids values?

I can say without reservation that if my child is ever someone that shoots up a school I will hold myself most to blame. Not society, not a weapon, not social media, not video games, not anything else. At the end of the day it would be me that failed them most of all.

 

[MamaBelle4]

The problem is the people, and I don't mean the current generation of kids in school. I'm referring to the previous generation....the parents. Many parents don't have any active involvement in the lives of their children. If they do get involved, it's to the extent that "Little Johnny couldn't possibly be causing problems! It must be the school's fault!" The previous generation wants to be their child's friend rather than a parent. There's little discipline and few, if any, consequences.

Friend, I don't know who you're referring to, but I am an elder millenials. My oldest is 14. So I'm probably one of the "previous generation".

I was 13 when Columbine happened. 26 when Sandy Hook happened.

Care to explain how it's my generation's fault again?

 

[CdnCarrie]

I can say without reservation that if my child is ever someone that shoots up a school I will hold myself most to blame. Not society, not a weapon, not social media, not video games, not anything else. At the end of the day it would be me that failed them most of all.

Yes take individual responsibility. Let's not paint a generation of people as bad parents. That's just dumb.

 

[Kennywood]

While I didn't think it necessary to explain the obvious, I will do so nonetheless.

I never stated that ALL kids aren't being taught values. It would seem that the majority of kids are. The topic of discussion is the minority of kids who are perpetrating these shootings.

Therefore, not ALL parents of school age children are failing at teaching their kids values. Again, for the purpose of the discussion, I am referring to the minority of parents who are not teaching their children values.

I'm not sure how I can dumb down the explanation any further. But I'll not be surprised if someone takes offense. There are some people who seem to go out of their way to be so.

 

[CdnCarrie]

Until the previous generation is made to take responsibility for their children, not much will change

While I didn't think it necessary to explain the obvious, I will do so nonetheless.

I never stated that ALL kids aren't being taught values. It would seem that the majority of kids are. The topic of discussion is the minority of kids who are perpetrating these shootings.

Therefore, not ALL parents of school age children are failing at teaching their kids values. Again, for the purpose of the discussion, I am referring to the minority of parents who are not teaching their children values.

I'm not sure how I can dumb down the explanation any further. But I'll not be surprised if someone takes offense. There are some people who seem to go out of their way to be so.

Misunderstood or poorly written. I vote poorly written.
Pot meet kettle for taking offense.

The previous generation = (to me) ALL kids in that generation. I guess I have to explain the obvious to you.

 

[Colleen27]

Which chart are you referring to? I posted two. They BOTH show that during the ban, mass shootings stayed about the same (compared to the previous decade). One even has the trend line that has been rising pretty consistently (not showing any drop).

Aren't there laws that already prohibit minors from purchasing weapons? Wasn't this latest shooter in his 20s if not 30s? Haven't many of the shooters obtained their weapons illegally?

I'm not saying gun laws shouldn't be looked at. But there is no ONE solution that will prevent the next shooting.

The first one, the one that focused on number of events rather than on deaths. I quoted it but forgot quoted images don't show up.

This shooter, like the one in Parkland, was 19. Old enough to buy a gun, not old enough to buy a Pabst or a pack of Marlboros. But even those who obtain their weapons illegally usually just take unsecured firearms from parents or other relatives. These shooters generally aren't established criminals with the connections to get black market guns. They either buy them legally (Parkland, St. Louis, Aurora, etc.) or have them readily accessible at home (Sandy Hook, Columbine, Oxford, etc.). Either way, making assault rifles and other highly efficient means of killing people more difficult to buy and own privately would make them less available to would-be shooters.

How those safe-guards failed does need to be investigated. Those are only as good as enforcement and policy. If other doors are left unlocked or the detectors are ignored they aren't any good. I have to be buzzed into my child's school to pick him up and there is a door camera. If I'm buzzed in and hold the door opened, or if the person doing the buzzing just opens it for everyone even if they don't recognize them, that is a failure of implementation. They might as well not have it.

If the protocols and policies aren't strictly enforced and audited frequently they are not security, they are just security theater.

That's the thing about relying on security as a solution to anything... it is always self-justifying. If nothing happens, the security is working. If something does happen, there obviously wasn't enough security and we need to look into how we can add to the failed system. But in the end, if a solution to anything relies on perfect compliance from the human beings involved in administering it, it isn't really a solution. Because human beings aren't perfect and we aren't designed to maintain high levels of vigilance as an everyday posture while also tending to other day-to-day responsibilities.

Did you ever wonder why there weren't mass school shootings 50 years ago? When i was in school, pickup trucks with rifle racks were in the school parking lot. A lot of times, the rifles were actually in the racks. There were kids that were loners. There were kids that were bullies. Yet you didn't hear about mass school shootings. Why?

The problem isn't the guns. Guns have been around for hundreds of years. Yet it's only in the past generation that there seems to be a problem.

The problem is the people, and I don't mean the current generation of kids in school. I'm referring to the previous generation....the parents. Many parents don't have any active involvement in the lives of their children. If they do get involved, it's to the extent that "Little Johnny couldn't possibly be causing problems! It must be the school's fault!" The previous generation wants to be their child's friend rather than a parent. There's little discipline and few, if any, consequences.

Do you want to take REAL action about school shootings? Then the parents of any child found using a weapon should be equally charged with the crime. If parents realized that they actually had to take responsibility for their children...and their weapons....there would be a drastic reduction in shooting.

Due to the current situation, I do support the OPTION of teachers being armed. But it should have NEVER come to that point. Teachers should be teaching....period. They're not supposed to be raising people's children, simply because the parents aren't willing to take responsibility and do their jobs. We expect teachers to do more and more, while we allow parents to get away with doing less and less.

Until the previous generation is made to take responsibility for their children, not much will change.

First, I don't think guns of the type we're talking about have been readily available to the general public for hundreds of years. Those gun racks mostly held shotguns and small caliber hunting rifles, not semi-automatic AR-15s. And those guns were expensive enough to be passed down from father to son along with lessons on their use. Now guns are not only plentiful and more powerful, they're cheaper. Rifles, in particular (handguns and shotguns have trended pretty close to overall inflation) have dropped significantly in their real price, as has ammunition of all types. And the second-hand market has proliferated in anonymous ways that wouldn't have been easily available in the "good old days".

Second, and more importantly, I think you have the changes in parenting all wrong. We expect parents to do a lot more than they used to, and most live up to those expectations. The idea of parents knowing where their kids are, 24/7, would have been laughable when I was a kid. My generation grew up with a lot of absent fathers, and our parents grew up with the idea of fatherhood as being little more than a breadwinner and discipline threat as common. My mother and her cousins loved to natter on about my (older millennial) generation's "over parenting" and how we don't let our kids walk home from school, get themselves to/from activities, have long stretches of unsupervised and unstructured time, and one of my FIL's favorite rants was about kids these days being spoiled brats because their dads aren't tough enough on them (usually meaning they're not spanked enough).

If there is a parenting component to these events, I think it has more to do with the culture of fear and paranoia that has come to pervade our culture in general and the specific demographic group to which most school shooters belong in particular. There's a sort of persecution complex I see all around me, with members of that specific demographic group donning a mantle of victimhood and claiming to have a tougher road than less-advantaged groups, and when you combine that scapegoating (someone else demanding equality is why my life is less than it should be) with the feeling that one's only source of safety is being better armed and tougher than the people you blame, it isn't hard to see how children raised with that culture might think indiscriminate violence is a reasonable response to relatively ordinary and nearly universal teen/young adult angst.

 

[MamaBelle4]

I'm not sure how I can dumb down the explanation any further.

Cool.

Let me clarify things for you.

You originally blamed an entire generation. Contextually implying either Gen X or Millennials as we are the parents of the school aged kids now.

Here's the problem with that. Mass school shootings started while WE were still kids and we were raised by Boomers.

That's three generations. Suggests it is NOT a generational issue. Was that clear enough for you?

 

[TAX GUY]

First, I don't think guns of the type we're talking about have been readily available to the general public for hundreds of years. Those gun racks mostly held shotguns and small caliber hunting rifles, not semi-automatic AR-15s. And those guns were expensive enough to be passed down from father to son along with lessons on their use. Now guns are not only plentiful and more powerful, they're cheaper. Rifles, in particular (handguns and shotguns have trended pretty close to overall inflation) have dropped significantly in their real price, as has ammunition of all types. And the second-hand market has proliferated in anonymous ways that wouldn't have been easily available in the "good old days".

An AR-15 is no more powerful than many of their handgun counterparts. many of the other "not as scary black guns" are far more powerful and also semi automatic (not fully automatic like military grade weapons). Add to that, the prices of the AR's have almost tripled since they became the headlines in many of the news outlets stories. Again, semantics but thought it should be pointed out since you mentioned the availability and price.

This is me several years ago trying a friends new AR-15 (we were both members of a sportsmen club, at a private outdoor range, shooting at paper targets). He paid just over $800 and within a few weeks, the prices jumped to around $2100.





Oh, and looks like this one is turning personal, so I anticipate the lock down coming soon.

 

[Aladora]

An AR-15 is no more powerful than many of their handgun counterparts. many of the other "not as scary black guns" are far more powerful and also semi automatic (not fully automatic like military grade weapons). Add to that, the prices of the AR's have almost tripled since they became the headlines in many of the news outlets stories. Again, semantics but thought it should be pointed out since you mentioned the availability and price.



Oh, and looks like this one is turning personal, so I anticipate the lock down coming soon.

I have absolutely ZERO knowledge about different types of guns so when you posted this I Googled AR-15 and came across the wiki page for this gun. In reading through it, I came across this section which I thought was interesting. Two things stood out for me, the first being the last line under the United States heading, that it is thought that the choice of guns for mass shooters has more to do with the shooter's knowledge about the gun and also a copycat effect. Interesting to me in that I had never considered that. The second thing that stood out is the reactions from Australia, New Zealand, and Canada.

AR15 use in crime and mass shootings

Use in crime and mass shootings​

United States​

Most firearm-related homicides in the United States involve handguns.[97][98][99] A 2019 Pew Research study found that 4% of US gun deaths were caused by semi-automatic rifles, a category which includes AR-15 style rifles.[100] According to a 2013 analysis by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, 14 out of 93 mass shootings involved high-capacity magazines or assault weapons.[101] Nevertheless, AR-15 style rifles have played a prominent role in many high-profile mass shootings in the United States[102] and have come to be widely characterized as the weapon of choice for perpetrators of these crimes.[103] AR-15s or similar rifles were the primary weapons used in half of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in modern American history:[104][105] the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, the 2017 Las Vegas shooting, the 2017 Sutherland Springs church shooting,[106] the 2018 Stoneman Douglas High School shooting,[107] and the 2022 Robb Elementary School shooting.[108] Gun expert Dean Hazen and mass murder researcher Pete Blair think that mass shooters' gun choices have less to do with the AR-15's specific characteristics but rather with familiarity and a copycat effect.[109][110]

Australia​

Following the use of a Colt AR-15 rifle in the Port Arthur massacre, the worst single-person shooting incident in Australian history, the country enacted the National Firearms Agreement in 1996, restricting the private ownership of semi-automatic rifles. (Category D[111]).[112][113][114]

New Zealand​

As a result of the Christchurch mosque shootings with an AR-15 during Friday Prayer on March 15, 2019, the New Zealand government enacted a law to ban semi-automatic firearms, magazines, and parts that can be used to assemble prohibited firearms.[115][116]

Canada​

After the 2020 Nova Scotia attacks, the deadliest rampage by a single person in Canadian history,[117] Canada banned a class of firearms, including the AR-15.[118][119]

 

[jalapeno_pretzel]

This is so gd bleak and I’m so sorry that you feel this way. I can’t imagine how hard it must be to send your child out the door every day.

Maybe it sounds worse than I meant it. It's not like I dwell on this thought. Just that with the variety of places it's happened, I don't really feel like it's inherently more dangerous to be at school than just to be out and about anywhere.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

How those safe-guards failed does need to be investigated. Those are only as good as enforcement and policy. If other doors are left unlocked or the detectors are ignored they aren't any good. I have to be buzzed into my child's school to pick him up and there is a door camera. If I'm buzzed in and hold the door opened, or if the person doing the buzzing just opens it for everyone even if they don't recognize them, that is a failure of implementation. They might as well not have it.

If the protocols and policies aren't strictly enforced and audited frequently they are not security, they are just security theater.

I read that the shooter was a student at the school previously and knew how to get in in a roundabout way. He went directly to the gymnasium at 9am where his intended targets were, and shot them. I’m not sure of details beyond that but perhaps this was a girlfriend and he knew she was in gym first period or something like that?

Solve THIS problem and we may get somewhere.

Agreed. I think the problems are many.

The problem is the people, and I don't mean the current generation of kids in school. I'm referring to the previous generation....the parents. Many parents don't have any active involvement in the lives of their children. If they do get involved, it's to the extent that "Little Johnny couldn't possibly be causing problems! It must be the school's fault!" The previous generation wants to be their child's friend rather than a parent. There's little discipline and few, if any, consequences.

I don’t agree if what you are saying is a whole generational thing. (I see you’ve clarified.) I do think that many of these people who go off the rails do show some similar, negative issues (there used to be a professor at Northeastern University who studied this type of thing) and often seem to have parents who aren’t really overseeing them the way they should be. But that’s certainly not true of most parents, I’d say.

I suspect the reason people are "disparaging" thoughts and prayers is that at the end of the day, T&P do nothing to stop what is happening. In my mind, it is similar to someone being diagnosed with cancer and relying on the power of positive thought to get rid of it. And I say that as someone who was diagnosed with cancer and who definitely did not rely on positive thoughts alone to cure me.

If prayer helps you then by all means, go for it! But we should not be under the illusion that it is a solution to the problem in any way.

How do you know they don’t help, though? Yes, as platitudes, they are obnoxious to hear, I agree with that. But if there are caring people in the world who are truly praying for world peace and thinking genuinely about people horribly affected by these tragedies, then I think that can only be a good thing. If I say I am sending thoughts and prayers to someone, it’s because I’m really thinking about them and praying for them, otherwise I wouldn’t say so. These are positive, altruistic feelings, if nothing else, and that can only be a good thing, can’t it? The world needs more of this, in my view. Religious feelings are over and above that. I don’t think you have to be religious, perse, to offer good feelings toward people or a situation.

I am a cancer survivor, as well. I trained myself to keep positive thoughts, not because I thought they could heal me, necessarily, but because it helped keep my quality of life better while I was going through treatment. I also did pray, as well, because that is something I personally believe in. I just hate seeing people say “thoughts and prayers” are useless. Obviously, those alone are not going to completely solve this problem we have. (No one thing will.) But I don’t see how they can hurt, and maybe some good thoughts toward eachother in our world is something that really could help, and probably do help, more than we realize. YMMV.

 

[NotUrsula]

While I didn't think it necessary to explain the obvious, I will do so nonetheless.

I never stated that ALL kids aren't being taught values. It would seem that the majority of kids are. The topic of discussion is the minority of kids who are perpetrating these shootings.

Therefore, not ALL parents of school age children are failing at teaching their kids values. Again, for the purpose of the discussion, I am referring to the minority of parents who are not teaching their children values.

I'm not sure how I can dumb down the explanation any further. But I'll not be surprised if someone takes offense. There are some people who seem to go out of their way to be so.

I'm not offended by this argument, just disappointed. You see, to think that this is really the solution, you have to believe that knowing right from wrong = not doing wrong. (Perhaps because you believe the common corollary, that people are always prevented from doing wrong if someone they respect/fear has put a lot of effort into scaring them straight?) Nice idea, but obviously not true, though it might seem logical. However ...

Here's the thing: for people with mental illness (which includes nearly all people who commit school shootings), logic is a lost cause. The person knows intellectually that it is wrong to do such a thing, but in the presence of mental illness, cannot overcome the lizard-brain-level fear and anger that urges him (and it's nearly always a him) to desperate action. They also know on a logical level that school shooters almost never leave the scene alive, but generally being quite young, seldom truly understand the reality of dead means dead. They have delusions of finally gaining revenge over people they perceive as tormenters, but completely miss the logic of revenge having no value if you are not around to see the victim actually suffer from it.

Make no mistake: I am not saying that we should excuse such actions on the basis of mental health diagnoses; people who do this have to be removed from society through one means or another, and if a police sniper or life in jail is all we have, then it is what we must use. My point is that all the high-quality "values" instruction in the universe will not make one whit of difference to the reasoning capability of a diseased human brain. 60 years ago the US medical establishment chose to dismantle our residential mental health system, but has entirely failed to replace it with an effective alternative. Mix that state of affairs with the ready underground availability of high-capacity, high-power firearms, and the outcome was all too predictable.

This young man's family knew he was mentally ill and a risk for violent action, and they went to extraordinary lengths to try to prevent such a tragedy; they committed him for as long as they could, had him in outpatient treatment, always searched his mail, regularly searched his room. When he initially managed to get hold of a firearm in spite of these efforts, his mother called the police to come and take it away, and they did. He was on record here as being mentally ill and barred from legally possessing firearms. All these precautions, and yet he still managed to get hold of a weapon powerful enough to take down 9 people and well-nigh destroy the interior of a solid brick building (that covers nearly 2 city blocks, btw) in under 10 minutes.

The public schools here are fortified to the hilt. We have multiple guards, monitored cameras on all doors, electronic locks, panic buttons, intruder code words, and constant drills. The glass in the doors is even bullet-resistant. Someone up-thread asked how proper security procedures were not followed? The answer is that they *were* followed, to the letter. He shot out the door and shot his way past the unarmed guards. It took the SWAT teams only 10 minutes to arrive and stop him, but that it wasn't fast enough. As the President of our school board commented, “The assailant had a high-powered rifle, so much so that he could force himself into a secured building,” he said. “The building is riddled with bullets. I don't know how much firepower it would take to stop that person.”

PS: A new update: The gun used in the attack has been determined to be the same weapon that his mother had the police remove from their home when she discovered it. The police did not keep it, but passed it into the custody of an older family friend who was licensed to have it. Somehow, the young man managed to retrieve it from that person's home, but details on how that happened are not yet available.

 

[dvcgirl67]

Maybe it sounds worse than I meant it. It's not like I dwell on this thought. Just that with the variety of places it's happened, I don't really feel like it's inherently more dangerous to be at school than just to be out and about anywhere.

I agree, it can happen anywhere, but troubled/mentally ill teen boys in particular...seem to have a thing for killing their schoolmates, or little kids..etc. I do not have children, but do have a niece and two nephews who are all high schoolers, and I think about them in those schools all of the time. I pass by the high school in my town where two of them go and am slightly comforted to see the police cars that are now always outside. Not much, but a little bit anyway.

It's just such a sad state of affairs. Not only do I see police cars there, but at the Synagogue in my town there were two police cars during the fall High Holy Days. Again, I'm glad they are there...but sad they need to be there.

Same goes for the big theater in my town that hosts huge gatherings of school children of all ages from all over the county during the school year. It's a 1,500 seat theater, and so it's not uncommon to see over twenty school buses parked outside on those days. I have lived in my town since 2007 and never saw a police presence right out front. The police station is right across the street, so I guess they always figured that was close enough. But after Sandy Hook....there are always several police cars parked out front and armed police officers standing outside on the sidewalk. I guess to a disturbed school shooter that kind of thing is a beacon.

It's just such a shame that we've let things go so far...in the name of the second amendment. It doesn't need to be this way.

 

[Colleen27]

An AR-15 is no more powerful than many of their handgun counterparts. many of the other "not as scary black guns" are far more powerful and also semi automatic (not fully automatic like military grade weapons). Add to that, the prices of the AR's have almost tripled since they became the headlines in many of the news outlets stories. Again, semantics but thought it should be pointed out since you mentioned the availability and price.

This is me several years ago trying a friends new AR-15 (we were both members of a sportsmen club, at a private outdoor range, shooting at paper targets). He paid just over $800 and within a few weeks, the prices jumped to around $2100.

That both is and isn't true. It all depends on how you define "power" and what metrics you choose to look at. IIRC, the "not as powerful" argument is the one that looks only at velocity without regard to projectile mass, but I could be wrong about the specifics and don't feel like going digging for the source I read that broke it all down. This is the argument that sticks in my mind, though. Not one of the physics of what makes a gun "powerful" but the of the real impact of different types of weapons in human terms.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

I'm glad to hear the prices of recreational rifles are rising, at least. I did have an opportunity to shoot an AR-15 (with a bump stock, even!) when a friend bought one, and when my son asked the cost I was shocked at how low it was. I think under $700, at the time.

How do you know they don’t help, though? Yes, as platitudes, they are obnoxious to hear, I agree with that. But if there are caring people in the world who are truly praying for world peace and thinking genuinely about people horribly affected by these tragedies, then I think that can only be a good thing. If I say I am sending thoughts and prayers to someone, it’s because I’m really thinking about them and praying for them, otherwise I wouldn’t say so. These are positive, altruistic feelings, if nothing else, and that can only be a good thing, can’t it? The world needs more of this, in my view. Religious feelings are over and above that. I don’t think you have to be religious, perse, to offer good feelings toward people or a situation.

I am a cancer survivor, as well. I trained myself to keep positive thoughts, not because I thought they could heal me, necessarily, but because it helped keep my quality of life better while I was going through treatment. I also did pray, as well, because that is something I personally believe in. I just hate seeing people say “thoughts and prayers” are useless. Obviously, those alone are not going to completely solve this problem we have. (No one thing will.) But I don’t see how they can hurt, and maybe some good thoughts toward eachother in our world is something that really could help, and probably do help, more than we realize. YMMV.

If I belittle thoughts and prayers, it is because I view their inherent value as two-fold, neither of which translates in a meaningful way to school shootings. When expressed directly to someone, as an expression of sympathy or support, I do believe prayer, positive thought, pixie dust or whatever you call it has great value. Knowing other people are thinking about you and pulling for you in whatever you're facing is a source of comfort. But that doesn't really translate in the case of mass shootings because the overwhelming majority are just shouting their thoughts and prayers into the void, reacting almost performatively to something that we all know we should feel bad about but in a way that offers little to nothing in the way of comfort to victims and their families. And the second function, of prayer in particular, is to help us make sense of or cope with something outside of our control. But in this way, prayers and good thoughts can easily become a substitute for action to remedy the situation that prompted our distress in the first place, and I feel like collectively that's where we're at on this issue as a society. We all offer up our prayers to show we care but take no action to stop it happening again, which brings a saying about faith without works to my lapsed Catholic mind.

 

[Karin1984]

Like with everything that requires big changes, it takes a lot of people to take action to achieve somethin, whether it is the environment, #metoo, BLM, or mass shootings.

Unfortunately after each shooting this thread repeats. Are there people here who have done something to take action between this shooting and the last?

 

[DisneyOma]

I agree with reporting these kids because then maybe they will get some of the mental health or social supports the need, but what about the bullies that torture some of them daily?

I find a lot of schools (my dd's included) talk a lot about kindness, inclusion and no tolerance... yet tolerate quite a bit before anything gets done, if at all.

Once the student gets put on the list, services start that can identify the situation, including bullying.

Did you ever wonder why there weren't mass school shootings 50 years ago? When i was in school, pickup trucks with rifle racks were in the school parking lot. A lot of times, the rifles were actually in the racks. There were kids that were loners. There were kids that were bullies. Yet you didn't hear about mass school shootings. Why?

They happened, just not reported so quickly and efficiently. We have the internet now, didn't have it a few decades ago. We also have guns that don't take so long to load and reload and that can fire a barrage of bullets in a few seconds, compared to guns 150 years ago.

Here's a list of gun violence in schools:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(before_2000)

 

[GreatLakes]

If the information coming out about everything the parents did is correct, and I don't have a lot of faith in the media's ability to fact check before reporting so it is hard to say, then the failure of process here isn't with them or the school. Institutionalization was over used in the past we over corrected. There needs to be a way to get dangers to society into some form of facility where they can't do harm without violating their rights. It needs to include due process and have safeguards so it isn't weaponized.

Contrast this with that Michigan shooting, I believe it was Orion Township, where the parents not only ignored signs but almost encouraged the shooting. This recent case is even more scary. It is like the terrorist that carries out their bombing and then news comes out that they were on law enforcement's radar but some bureaucratic process got in the way.