OFFICIAL Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread (will contain spoilers once the movie is out)

[ktlm]

Yeah, and that's the thing about time travel. Once you have it, the "when" stops mattering. They made it seem like they needed to be very careful about the timeline and all, but they actually completely messed with history by taking objects like Mjolnir from the past and of course some of the people who permanently jumped forward. I mean, best not to think about it, but there are a lot of open doors there - maybe good fodder for future movies!

Well--- considering that the new Disney streaming channel has a Scarlett Witch/Vision series and reports are coming out that it takes place in the 1950s, I think they are going to take full advantage of the fact that they opened the time travel door. They also changed history and opened the door for the Loki series. They can virtually do anything with anyone now.

I
I was sad to see Tony go, but he started it all, so I can't complain about it.

I can- while I understand that what happened creates "endgame" literally since his movie started everything, I didn't need another typical "formula" self sacrifice ending that I have seen many times before. That is my biggest problem with the movie and probably the thing that leaves me cold. I think if the ending hadn't happened the way it did, I would be able to freely say I absolutely adored the movie. I didn't need the whole 11 years of movies turning into being about his journey to redemption. I would have much preferred that he lived to see another day and remained a thread holding the characters together- even if his snark just occasionally popped up here for a brief cameo in a movie while he gave people or helped people create new inventions like Q from James Bond. I would have been fine with them giving some sort of "injury" that kept him out of the action (his messed up arm comes to mind) while still letting him enjoy being pseudo retired with Pepper and Morgan. .....Of course, he is my absolute favorite character, so I might be a little- okay a lot-- biased. I really think I am literally feeling some kind of loss here--- for a fictional character! We had to buy DD ice cream and she sulked for hours after the movie. We knew it was coming. DD had the last 15 minutes of the movie pegged almost verbatim for months-- but it still hurts!!! I think maybe I need to keep telling myself "he was never real" "he was never real".

 

[BrianL]

Well--- considering that the new Disney streaming channel has a Scarlett Witch/Vision series and reports are coming out that it takes place in the 1950s, I think they are going to take full advantage of the fact that they opened the time travel door. They also changed history and opened the door for the Loki series. They can virtually do anything with anyone now.




I can- while I understand that what happened creates "endgame" literally since his movie started everything, I didn't need another typical "formula" self sacrifice ending that I have seen many times before. That is my biggest problem with the movie and probably the thing that leaves me cold. I think if the ending hadn't happened the way it did, I would be able to freely say I absolutely adored the movie. I didn't need the whole 11 years of movies turning into being about his journey to redemption. I would have much preferred that he lived to see another day and remained a thread holding the characters together- even if his snark just occasionally popped up here for a brief cameo in a movie while he gave people or helped people create new inventions like Q from James Bond. I would have been fine with them giving some sort of "injury" that kept him out of the action (his messed up arm comes to mind) while still letting him enjoy being pseudo retired with Pepper and Morgan. .....Of course, he is my absolute favorite character, so I might be a little- okay a lot-- biased. I really think I am literally feeling some kind of loss here--- for a fictional character! We had to buy DD ice cream and she sulked for hours after the movie. We knew it was coming. DD had the last 15 minutes of the movie pegged almost verbatim for months-- but it still hurts!!! I think maybe I need to keep telling myself "he was never real" "he was never real".

Well, the thing about Tony is that the door is always open. In a world of Infinity Gauntlets and time travel, he may never be gone for good. Here are just a few things from the comics to think about:

Tony once ruined his nervous system, faked his death, and had an artificial nervous system implanted into his body.
Tony once turned evil and fought himself from the past - the young Tony eventually died only to be saved in another dimension and restored to the version a child remembered most.
Tony once rebuilt his body using Extremis tech (in the movies too!).
Tony once was brain dead and stored his memories in a computer AI. That was then able to be uploaded back into his physical body.
Tony once again faked his death and created a holographic AI to act in his stead.

One never knows what really happened, and if they never explore it, you can always fill in the blanks in your own mind!

 

[cmwade77]

Well, the thing about Tony is that the door is always open. In a world of Infinity Gauntlets and time travel, he may never be gone for good. Here are just a few things from the comics to think about:

Tony once ruined his nervous system, faked his death, and had an artificial nervous system implanted into his body.
Tony once turned evil and fought himself from the past - the young Tony eventually died only to be saved in another dimension and restored to the version a child remembered most.
Tony once rebuilt his body using Extremis tech (in the movies too!).
Tony once was brain dead and stored his memories in a computer AI. That was then able to be uploaded back into his physical body.
Tony once again faked his death and created a holographic AI to act in his stead.

One never knows what really happened, and if they never explore it, you can always fill in the blanks in your own mind!

Exactly and we also know that Spiderman Far From Home is the actual end of Phase 3 now, so my guess is it may not be as permanent of a death as it seems. I mean, Loki came back again, in a strange way, but still he is indeed back.

Now one thing that I am still unclear on is if the younger Gamora survived everything or not.

 

[cmwade77]

Oh, without a doubt.
Another reason I wanted Bucky, I like him more than Falcon. I have a thing for the are they bad/are they good characters.
Loki is my FAV! like, best villain in the history of villains (so nice to see him for even a glimmer of time last night) and of course, who doesn't love them some Dead Pool and Punisher (would love to see this show return on Dis+ but I understand it's not likely).

And here I married the textbook definition of a Boy Scout....

Well and now Loki has managed to come back to life again, so you should be happy about that. Granted, a younger version of him, but still.

 

[monorailrabbit]

Just saw the movie today - my BFF drove 3 hours so we could see it together! Here are my thoughts quick (and not very organized)
1. Omg wow! What a finale. I’m not ok with it being “over”
2. I wanted more okoye. I know this was supposed to be about the original, but I was hoping she’d become more part of the team, like Rocket
3. Omg Loki! While I did super want him the be the one to slap Thor back to reality, I was super happy with his small part - so perfect
4. I loved loved loved all the cameos! Part of my was secretly hoping we would somehow get a Yondu nod, but I know how far fetched that was
5. I was not prepared for Black Widow. Cried SO hard!
6. I was prepared for Tony - I still have a headache from crying so much
7. Didn’t care for Hulk - Valkyrie said it best - I like it better one way or the other
8. I really need Thor to stay with the Guardians. I go back and forth between GOTG2 and Ragnarok being my favorite so them together is the best of both worlds!
9. Nebula and Tony at the beginning was a friendship I didn’t know I needed
10. I need this soundtrack!

 

[Phicinfan]

How’s everyone feeling about Sam!Cap? I know that both Sam and Bucky have taken up the Cap mantle at different times in comics but I’ll admit that I was little surprised at first that Steve gave the shield to Sam at the end of this one.

For some reason I’ve always assumed that the shield would go to Bucky because of Sebastian’s longer contract and all of the foreshadowing in the Cap Trilogy but thinking about it logically in universe Sam is the better choice. He’s stuck by Cap when he didn’t need to and he’s got a good heart. Plus Bucky’s got enough to deal with and hasn’t he taken up the White Wolf mantle in Wakanda now? It seemed like Bucky and Steve might have already discussed it before Steve went back in time.

I’m looking forward to Sam and Bucky’s Disney+ show though and whether they’re going to expand upon it in that.

I actually don't like this, and didn't with the comics either, the bucky move makes more sense as Cap was in the ice and bucky handled the shield. My issue with this is in MCU, Bucky had same serum as Cap, so the tie in makes a ton of sense, Sam is mere mortal, so he will be a weaker version. Not sure how this will run in MCU version. Granted, it has happened in comics, but still don't like it.

 

[hakepb]

I just got back, and wow, wow!
It was everything I hoped, and everything I feared.

 

[SaharanTea]

The ten-year-old me that remembers reading Captain America, Avengers, and Thanos comics is very satisfied with this movie.

Cap picking up Mjolnir was perfection.

 

[SaharanTea]

A few thoughts from the discussion in this thread:

Agents of SHIELD recognizes everything in the MCU, but the MCU does not recognize what happens in the TV show. Coulson is still dead in the MCU.

Natasha was Clint's last family on Earth. He became Ronin (not the blue Cree guy) when he lost his family. Maybe self-sacrifice works just as well for Red Skull's rules (well, the Stone's rules), but I guess they could go with whatever rules they want. It's their script.

When returning all the stone's to their proper times, I really thought Cap was going to disappear on that platform and Natasha was going to pop out. Cap sacrificed himself to bring Natasha back, but they went for a longer swan song.

The two movies together are quite the epic.

 

[dizprincess77]

We can debate if you want. IM3 is one of the best Marvel movies. And at the time easily top 1/2 for me.

Rotten Tomatoes has IM3 above tons of movies. Above IM2, above Thor: Dark World, above Ant-Man, tied with First Avenger among others. It holds up to comparisons if you look at metascore and Sinemascore to although not exactly like RT.

Out of the Avengers Films I really couldn't get into the first Iron Man. I finally watched Iron Man 2 the other day. My favorites have been all Captain America Movies, Black Panther, Thor Ragn (sp?) & all Avengers films. If I didn't name them I didn't care for them.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

I actually don't like this, and didn't with the comics either, the bucky move makes more sense as Cap was in the ice and bucky handled the shield. My issue with this is in MCU, Bucky had same serum as Cap, so the tie in makes a ton of sense, Sam is mere mortal, so he will be a weaker version. Not sure how this will run in MCU version. Granted, it has happened in comics, but still don't like it.

Yeah, this was my biggest issue. Sam, while a great hero, is a mortal. I’m not a comic book guy so I don’t know how this was handled there, but captain America is always a super hero with super abilities. Bucky would make more sense in the current time.
Also, with Thor taking the hammer from the past, wouldn’t that create an alternate timeline in that dimension where that Thor doesn’t have a hammer and doesn’t yet know he doesn’t need it?

My absolute favorite moment in any MCU and possibly in any movie in the last 20 years was the Avengers Assemble scene. Just perfect. And Thor’s line: “I knew it”

 

[whiporee]

I've never know comic Cap to have any more super powers than, say, Batman. The Super Soldier Serum didn't give him super strength, just gave him as much strength as a person could have. The movies have pumped that up a bit, but I think Sam's got enough natural strength to be Captain America.

I was glad he didn't give it to Bucky. You never know just how deep the brainwashing might go, or what might trigger it.

Oner more thing I liked was Pepper telling Tony it was all right to go, that everyone was safe. You don't see that a lot when a younger person dies in media.

 

[BrianL]

The problem with Bucky as Cap is that Captain America has to be a paragon of ideals, and Bucky has too much questionable history. I know it wasn't his fault, but he can't carry on the legacy untainted. I hated in the comics how he carried a sidearm too. Sam has always been a solidly moral character and, quite frankly, has more history with Cap (in the comics) - he had earned the role more and is a better representation of Captain America.

 

[rteetz]

Oner more thing I liked was Pepper telling Tony it was all right to go, that everyone was safe. You don't see that a lot when a younger person dies in media.

That was a moment that got me as an Iron Man fan.

 

[hakepb]

Yeah, this was my biggest issue. Sam, while a great hero, is a mortal. I’m not a comic book guy so I don’t know how this was handled there, but captain America is always a super hero with super abilities. Bucky would make more sense in the current time.
Also, with Thor taking the hammer from the past, wouldn’t that create an alternate timeline in that dimension where that Thor doesn’t have a hammer and doesn’t yet know he doesn’t need it?

My absolute favorite moment in any MCU and possibly in any movie in the last 20 years was the Avengers Assemble scene. Just perfect. And Thor’s line: “I knew it”

Cap took the hammer back with the stones, so I don’t think past Thor missed it.

 

[leiaorgana]

Yeah, this was my biggest issue. Sam, while a great hero, is a mortal.

Tony, Scott, Hope and Rhodey are all mortal. They just have enhanced suits that give them their “powers”. Shuri’s mortal and all she has are blasters that she designed herself. Clint and Okoye are mortal and they don’t even have cool suits but they still manage to hold their own and more......

 

[SaharanTea]

I've never know comic Cap to have any more super powers than, say, Batman. The Super Soldier Serum didn't give him super strength, just gave him as much strength as a person could have. The movies have pumped that up a bit, but I think Sam's got enough natural strength to be Captain America.

I was glad he didn't give it to Bucky. You never know just how deep the brainwashing might go, or what might trigger it.

Oner more thing I liked was Pepper telling Tony it was all right to go, that everyone was safe. You don't see that a lot when a younger person dies in media.

His strength, abilities, and stamina are still in excess of normal humans, but he is definitely mortal. Think of it like whatever the human record for something is, he can bump that up by a few notches.

I'd definitely put him above Batman physically, but it's not a monstrous difference. He's Superman in ideals, not abilities.

 

[Nole95]

Loved the movie, but there is one thing that popped into my head this morning.

We know that five years have past, so when everyone comes back it is 2023. As far as I know they did not reset history to 2018, which is when IW took place.

At the end of Endgame, we see Peter Parker return to high school, which is fine. He has been gone five years, and would need to start back at school. In that scene, his best friend appears to be really happy to see him. Acts like it has been a long time since he has seen Peter. Crying and hugging. Anyone left behind would be well out of high school by this point. Looking the the trailer for Far from Home, it appears everyone in that movie is the same age they were in the first Spiderman. Playing the statistics, at least half those people should have aged five years by now.

Not an overly big deal, and maybe it can be explained. Just something I thought about this morning.

 

[AngiTN]

At the end of Endgame, we see Peter Parker return to high school, which is fine. He has been gone five years, and would need to start back at school. In that scene, his best friend appears to be really happy to see him. Acts like it has been a long time since he has seen Peter. Crying and hugging. Anyone left behind would be well out of high school by this point. Looking the the trailer for Far from Home, it appears everyone in that movie is the same age they were in the first Spiderman. Playing the statistics, at least half those people should have aged five years by now.

Not an overly big deal, and maybe it can be explained. Just something I thought about this morning.

We also discussed this. How Peter would return to school, at the same age he left but all the rest of those he knew would have gone on, been in college. Then I realized did we know his friend stayed behind? Maybe he is one of the returned too?

As to the next Spiderman, I've never looked at the timeline used on it. Is it set at the end of Endgame? It's not always so that the individual character movies are within the same timeline as Avenger movies. So the sequence can be whatever they want, so long as it happens after Homecoming. For all we know, could the event of the new movie be set between Homecoming and IW?

 

[saskdw]

I've never know comic Cap to have any more super powers than, say, Batman. The Super Soldier Serum didn't give him super strength, just gave him as much strength as a person could have. The movies have pumped that up a bit, but I think Sam's got enough natural strength to be Captain America.

Capt not having super powers is debatable.

From the Marvel database:

STRENGTH LEVEL: Captain America represents the pinnacle of human physical perfection. While not superhuman, he is as strong as a human being can be. He can lift (press) a maximum of 800 pounds with supreme effort.

KNOWN SUPERHUMAN POWERS: Captain America has agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he has metabolized has enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.

Captain America has mastered the martial art of American-style boxing and judo, and has combined these disciplines with his own unique hand-to-hand style of combat. He engages in a daily regimen of rigorous exercise (including aerobics, weight lifting, gymnastics, and simulated combat) to keep himself in peek condition. Captain America is one of the finest human combatants Earth has ever known

An 800 lbs overhead press means he can bench press and squat over 1000 lbs. It's like taking the strongest power lifter on earth and putting his strength into someone like Bruce Lee. According to my interpretation of this write up Capt's speed and agility are well beyond a Bruce Lee or world class athlete. He never tires, heals quickly, etc.

Generally he is considered to have entry level super powers in the comics. There is no way he could beat someone like Spider-man in hand to hand combat without some super human enhancements.