Norway Ride & Rivers Of Light (Disappointing Progress Updates)

As a long-time Redskins fan...that is highly debatable.

My point exactly.

The argument being made is reductionist. Without the specifics we cannot say it was an engineering failure, a program management failure, a result of budget cuts, component failure from one of the suppliers, just plain over-eagerness to announce a start date, an act of god or something else.

It's hard to pull out individual threads like that even if you have access to all the data. It's utterly impossible on forum.
 
I understand the frustration being directed at Disney, as that is normally what happens when things don't go as planned. However, let's also understand this is a construction project, not just engineering.

It's a popular belief with construction that an engineer can dream all they want, but when it gets to the construction phase, it's all out the window. In my experience, that's true more often than not, and 75% of engineers I have dealt with are completely out of touch with the realities of construction. This often causes major delays in projects. This is not limited to Disney, but Disney has a lot more eyes on them than the average project. People work their butts off all year with a Disney vacation being the light at the end of the tunnel, just to arrive and see that the completion date of a project was off by months. Then speculation occurs on incompetence and so on, we all know the narrative. Emotions are high, tempers flare, over reactions run wild.

As someone that works with Disney Parks on projects, I assure you they expect nothing short of the unrealistic goals mentioned above. The amazing deadlines and feats met behind the scenes are the ones you never hear about or know of (as is disneys plan). As usual, the negative projects and failures are the ones that make the news.
 
The project lead flatly stated that we plan for success, not for failure. I found that interesting as that philosophy is founded on the concept that everything in a multi-stage project will be executed flawlessly...which in itself is a flawed concept..

Yup this is corporate culture too. Though I do have to say I've rarely ever seen a project finish early no matter what you build in.

I take issue with the whole "delays just happen" take. It is simply not true and illogical. There is always a reason for a delay. The delay occurs after a problems is discovered, then an investigation into the problem takes place to determine what the problem is. What that means in real life terms is a mistake and / or miscalculation was made at some point in the planning and building process..

But to say anyone would be able to anticipate EVERY cause for delay 100% of the time is patently absurd. Humans are humans, they all make mistakes, even the best designer / engineer is not infallible. And again, not every project is staffed properly for what is needed, so things slip through the cracks that way.
 
Uhhh, do you work at the same place I do? LOL

Thought of another recent example. We were given to go ahead to start a project the last week of January this year. Management insisted "Project must be running by the first of May". We knew the long-lead equipment would likely take 10-12 weeks to get here from outside construction firms, likely arriving mid-to-late April and will need several weeks to install, and the May 1 date was completely impossible right from the start, but no-one wanted to hear that. We immediately worked on those items first, and guess what, they are arriving sometime next week and will take several weeks to install and we won't make the date that was forced on us.

I don't think that's what Walt meant when he said "It's kind of fun to do the impossible."
 

But to say anyone would be able to anticipate EVERY cause for delay 100% of the time is patently absurd. Humans are humans, they all make mistakes, even the best designer / engineer is not infallible. And again, not every project is staffed properly for what is needed, so things slip through the cracks that way.

I would love to preach about the unforseeable complications Disney runs into and successfully handles daily at the Morpho Project and many other projects and sites around their properties right now. Disney, however, is a company that would rather act like they've been there before and avoid dabbing at every first down. Then they come up short on a project and everyone wants to fire the coach and the quarterback.

Lots of speculation and talk going on here from people that have never even shook a Disney Parks project manager's hand. There are no better hands these projects could be in, but no one on earth "wins them all".
 
"Engineering difficulties" could be a red herring ... the solution may be right in front of us ... painting is not complete ... they laid off a lot of painters ...

Like rteetz said, I don't believe the yeti problem is a huge engineering problem. I think, like the notorious paperboy, it's a case of, "can we get by without fixing this? Yes? OK done."

In the case of Frozen, it might be easier to blame the problem on unspecified engineering problems than for the exec who decided to lay off the painters to lose face by hiring them back.
 
It's a popular belief with construction that an engineer can dream all they want, but when it gets to the construction phase, it's all out the window. In my experience, that's true more often than not, and 75% of engineers I have dealt with are completely out of touch with the realities of construction.

The opposite is also true. I have designed several roof-top observatories for colleges/universities. My experience with construction types is that no matter what is on the plans, they will build it the way they dang well please, likely the way they have "always done things". As an example, you can't run hard conduit attached to the underside of the observing floor and attach it directly to the telescope pier. It will transmit all manner of mechanical vibrations making the telescope at best compromised, and at worst totally useless. Yet on more than one one project I can name, the construction people ignored the plans and did it their way, causing rework and additional cost. There are many other examples, not just from my projects, but from my colleagues who do the same kind of design. The designing of observatories is a teeny, tiny field, so if the contractors are screwing up our designs, imagine what they do to other stuff. These were NOT "engineer's daydream" items that are hard or impossible to build. They were simple things that should have just been done as designed, period. I once threatened to camp out on the job site to make sure things got done right. I didn't, but I doubt it would have helped. What I've taken away from all this is that contractors are generally lazy, unwilling to try anything new, and on top of that, the people that work for them aren't exactly very good at following instructions or even reading plans.

There also exist many "engineering disasters" that were not in fact due to bad engineering. They were disasters because the contractors built something the way they wanted to, NOT the way it was designed in the first place. Then the engineers generally get blamed, at least by the public.
 
The opposite is also true. I have designed several roof-top observatories for colleges/universities. My experience with construction types is that no matter what is on the plans, they will build it the way they dang well please, likely the way they have "always done things". As an example, you can't run hard conduit attached to the underside of the observing floor and attach it directly to the telescope pier. It will transmit all manner of mechanical vibrations making the telescope at best compromised, and at worst totally useless. Yet on more than one one project I can name, the construction people ignored the plans and did it their way, causing rework and additional cost. There are many other examples, not just from my projects, but from my colleagues who do the same kind of design. The designing of observatories is a teeny, tiny field, so if the contractors are screwing up our designs, imagine what they do to other stuff. These were NOT "engineer's daydream" items that are hard or impossible to build. They were simple things that should have just been done as designed, period. I once threatened to camp out on the job site to make sure things got done right. I didn't, but I doubt it would have helped. What I've taken away from all this is that contractors are generally lazy, unwilling to try anything new, and on top of that, the people that work for them aren't exactly very good at following instructions or even reading plans.

There also exist many "engineering disasters" that were not in fact due to bad engineering. They were disasters because the contractors built something the way they wanted to, NOT the way it was designed in the first place. Then the engineers generally get blamed, at least by the public.

Those contractors probably felt the same way about you. The two fields are as bad as Republicans and Democrats. The contractors say the engineers are naive office boys, and the engineers say the contractors are dumb rednecks. Neither is typically more true or false than the other but more based on the fact that neither will admit their own mistakes and flaws.

We're getting off track, and I have no intent or interest in arguing over scenarios with someone I have never met or worked with. If you felt I was taking a shot at the field of engineering or inviting a pissing contest, I assure you that was not my intention. I won't speak any more on this for the sake of everyone else in the thread.
 
Yup this is corporate culture too. Though I do have to say I've rarely ever seen a project finish early no matter what you build in.



But to say anyone would be able to anticipate EVERY cause for delay 100% of the time is patently absurd. Humans are humans, they all make mistakes, even the best designer / engineer is not infallible. And again, not every project is staffed properly for what is needed, so things slip through the cracks that way.

... and no one is saying to error isn't human. I even said that in another thread. I also said it's a main reason people get fired. In the case of RoL, it was just another example of a long list of failures of projects under Staggs purview. It also was a much more visible and preventable blunder that severely cost the company. Say all you want about unforeseen "technical issues", you simply don't publicly announce an opening date unless you are 100% positive you are ready to go. There is no excuse and no recovering from that kind of error in judgement. It also is hugely indicative of a lack of leadership ability and explains a lot as to why other projects are always delayed.
 
It's a popular belief with construction that an engineer can dream all they want, but when it gets to the construction phase, it's all out the window. In my experience, that's true more often than not, and 75% of engineers I have dealt with are completely out of touch with the realities of construction. This often causes major delays in projects.

If you felt I was taking a shot at the field of engineering or inviting a pissing contest, I assure you that was not my intention.

Dude, at least be honest. Of course you were taking a shot at engineers! It's no big deal. Like you said, it's just the way it is! I personally didn't take offense, because I've heard it all, and dealt it all myself, many, many times...
 
... and no one is saying to error isn't human. I even said that in another thread. I also said it's a main reason people get fired. In the case of RoL, it was just another example of a long list of failures of projects under Staggs purview. It also was a much more visible and preventable blunder that severely cost the company. Say all you want about unforeseen "technical issues", you simply don't publicly announce an opening date unless you are 100% positive you are ready to go. There is no excuse and no recovering from that kind of error in judgement. It also is hugely indicative of a lack of leadership ability and explains a lot as to why other projects are always delayed.
A lot of times with Disney management and Imagineering don't see eye to eye. Like others have said its very possible management said "Oh Earth Day is coming lets open that day so have it done then." Then you have imagineering saying its not going to be ready. We don't know the specifics of what is wrong or what happened. Its possible hey delayed it on purpose as well. We just don't know.
 
Say all you want about unforeseen "technical issues", you simply don't publicly announce an opening date unless you are 100% positive you are ready to go.

Except it wasn't a bunch of imagineers, or construction guys out there yelling, "hey guys, book yer airfare, weez done good." You can blame marketing for jumping the gun there.

The whole tragedy of sprawling corporations like Disney is that they're essentially a bunch of discrete operations, all marching to the beat of their own timetables, budgets, and performance reviews. That's arguably a failure at the very top level, but since it's one that afflicts every F500 on some level, I'm thinking at a certain point you've just got to roll with the idea that generally speaking large numbers of people don't actually work together very well.

Is Disney worse than some? Probably; the mouse has his mitts in a number of pies, and a lack of focus shows. Is it as bad as the majority? That's hard to say, but I don't see any reason to assume so.
 
Dude, at least be honest. Of course you were taking a shot at engineers! It's no big deal. Like you said, it's just the way it is! I personally didn't take offense, because I've heard it all, and dealt it all myself, many, many times...
Right, but it was all in good fun and did not appear to be taken that way. The two trades are typically both under extreme pressure and can't live with or without each other. No pressure, no diamonds, right? I didn't intend to insinuate that one field is more delusional about their lack of understanding of the other than the next. Im just saying, in the back of my mind, I know the engineer is not the root of all evil.

Even if that's a deep, deep, hidden, illogical place in my mind.

I kid, I kid.
 
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Except it wasn't a bunch of imagineers, or construction guys out there yelling, "hey guys, book yer airfare, weez done good." You can blame marketing for jumping the gun there.

The whole tragedy of sprawling corporations like Disney is that they're essentially a bunch of discrete operations, all marching to the beat of their own timetables, budgets, and performance reviews. That's arguably a failure at the very top level, but since it's one that afflicts every F500 on some level, I'm thinking at a certain point you've just got to roll with the idea that generally speaking large numbers of people don't actually work together very well.

Is Disney worse than some? Probably; the mouse has his mitts in a number of pies, and a lack of focus shows. Is it as bad as the majority? That's hard to say, but I don't see any reason to assume so.

We are much closer to being on the same wave length now. The only thing I would urge you to rethink is the part about dysfunction being normal for F500 companies. That may very well be for some but probably not for others and I would argue that is why COO's of F500's get paid what they do. COO is supposed to make sure things are running smoothly at the highest levels of the company. If that isn't the case and major project after major project keeps experiencing delays and cost over runs, that doesn't bode well for the future of a COO. Iger or the board don't seem like the type to just role with the idea that dysfunction is an acceptable leadership style for the COO of Disney or for someone allegedly being groomed to be the next CEO. I have no idea who came up with Earth Day as an opening date. I find it incredibly hard to believe that if it wasn't Staggs idea, he would leave that decision to his subordinates and they wouldn't at least mention to him that RoL wasn't going to be ready to go. Either way it reflects poorly on his leadership skills and probably has more to do with his conveniently timed resignation than some want to admit.
 
Thought of another recent example. We were given to go ahead to start a project the last week of January this year. Management insisted "Project must be running by the first of May". We knew the long-lead equipment would likely take 10-12 weeks to get here from outside construction firms, likely arriving mid-to-late April and will need several weeks to install, and the May 1 date was completely impossible right from the start, but no-one wanted to hear that. We immediately worked on those items first, and guess what, they are arriving sometime next week and will take several weeks to install and we won't make the date that was forced on us.

I don't think that's what Walt meant when he said "It's kind of fun to do the impossible."
We must work for the same people as well.

January 1st, meetings are held, and we discuss the timeline for the project. If we hustle it can be done by May 16. We just need X decision and the go ahead asap to get started.
We get the answer and permission to proceed with it at the end of March, and they seem perplexed when we explain we can no longer have the project done by May 16.
They then proceed to tell us it's required by May 16th, and we then try to pull off the miracle knowing full well that it is next to impossible.
A whole lot of hurry up and wait.
 
We are much closer to being on the same wave length now. The only thing I would urge you to rethink is the part about dysfunction being normal for F500 companies. That may very well be for some but probably not for others and I would argue that is why COO's of F500's get paid what they do. COO is supposed to make sure things are running smoothly at the highest levels of the company. If that isn't the case and major project after major project keeps experiencing delays and cost over runs, that doesn't bode well for the future of a COO. Iger or the board don't seem like the type to just role with the idea that dysfunction is an acceptable leadership style for the COO of Disney or for someone allegedly being groomed to be the next CEO. I have no idea who came up with Earth Day as an opening date. I find it incredibly hard to believe that if it wasn't Staggs idea, he would leave that decision to his subordinates and they wouldn't at least mention to him that RoL wasn't going to be ready to go. Either way it reflects poorly on his leadership skills and probably has more to do with his conveniently timed resignation than some want to admit.
Disney parks projects have gone over budget and have taken longer than they should since the beginning of the parks in 1955. Disneyland was over budget, Epcot was over budget, avatar is over budget, Paris was over budget, Shanghai is over budget, see a trend? This isn't why Staggs left.
 
Disney parks projects have gone over budget and have taken longer than they should since the beginning of the parks in 1955. Disneyland was over budget, Epcot was over budget, avatar is over budget, Paris was over budget, Shanghai is over budget, see a trend? This isn't why Staggs left.

Don't waste your breath. The man is obsessed with peddling his Staggs conspiracy theory even though no one is buying.
 
Disney parks projects have gone over budget and have taken longer than they should since the beginning of the parks in 1955. Disneyland was over budget, Epcot was over budget, avatar is over budget, Paris was over budget, Shanghai is over budget, see a trend? This isn't why Staggs left.

Yeah, personally I worry more about the under-delivering trend. If the product is good enough, over budget is a problem that can right itself. Under delivery less so. Over budget, and under delivering? Yeah, no.
 












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