Norway Ride & Rivers Of Light (Disappointing Progress Updates)

[DisneyLovingPreacher]

Disney contracts out the majority of the real engineering performed for their projects. They do not have the staff or expertise to perform the entire design and build. As mentioned by others imagineers are not necessarily engineers, but more on the lines of conceptual designers who turn over the details to others when it is time to get down and dirty.

Disney is a huge company. You would think they would have the money to hire a few huge name engineers. I understand that they may not want to pay the big money but it may be needed. It may help for Disney to have a few more of their own on property.

 

[kamik86]

I'm also an engineer and there really are multiple kinds of engineering "technical difficulties" I can forgive most of them.

Ones that can't be forgiven are the ones that cost lives. Structural integrity, safety engineering, etc. We have had projects delayed for these issues because it doesn't mater whose fault it was or that you found the issue in the 11th hour you don't deploy with these issues. Even if it only is "If the operator is an idiot and does this serious of 5 things they should never do... x really bad thing will happen" until you fix it you dont' deploy.

Next are the things where it isn't useful but no one gets hurt. So for a ride that would be if boats get stuck at X corner all the time... safely but they have to shut down the ride get them out and restart. This is also things like when the disney website goes down. No one is going to die or be injured but the system is useless when this happens too often.

Eventually you get down to the trivial things. These are the things the marketing department and the end users obsess about yet don't matter, the things they change their mind on 10 times and make you redo things for even though it has no practical use anyway. These tend to be the things that make good engineers have projects that go over budget. This would be things like if the Yeti is on Everest even though the ride is designed (I"m assuming here) for the ride to be run without it.


Also even the higher level issues aren't always the engineers. We had a project where the customer as a whole changed the requirements for something 3 years into a 4 year project. AT that point it was being installed but the system couldn't meet the new requirements. The new requirements were for a good reason (During that 3 years hackers got smarter and the computer system and network needed tougher security specs) but without having known about them before there was no reason to design them in (as meeting those requirements in the first place would have made the design a few hundred thousand dollars more expensive) of course meeting them after the fact cost twice as much. In this case we couldn't deliver until we met the new specs could be met, because the system was important enough that you couldn't put data on it unless it could be secured.

I've also had the customer insist on changing the design to save money (building a building in a much cheaper design) and then not asking the guys that build (and had started to design) the system that goes in the building. In the end with redesign effort, lost work, and more expensive interior design to make up for the less desirable exterior it cost them more money for an inferior end product then if they would have left well enough alone in the first place.

 

[mcjaco]

Quite honestly, these delays sound like every project I've worked on, in any line of business. You shoot for a target date, knowing full well that you'll likely miss it, but you hope to not hit the "Oh crap, we really messed this up" date.

Delays are inevitable, even with the best of the best.

 

[Flyerjab]

Perhabs after Avatar opens up? That would divert some of the traffic away from Everest and give them some time to shut it down for a bit.

That is what I have been thinking (and hoping for) after Pandora started construction and I saw the scope of that expansion. DAK has 3 big attractions - EE, Dinosaur, and the Kilimanjaro safari. For those that do not prefer the animal portions of DAK, you take one of the big 3 away - especially EE - and that really takes away from the experience in this park. Well, now add the E-Ticket simulator and D-Ticket boat ride in Pandora and you have a better situation for closing down EE for an extended refurbishment. That to me should be when the Yeti is (finally) repaired. It's not like they haven't had the time to investigate the problem and figure out a way to fix it.

 

[sachilles]

Wow, that's the norm for us too. We had a project where we told management in August "We can have it up and running by Jan 31st." Management drags out the decision for 4 months into mid-December and then they are SHOCKED that we can't have it running by Jan 31st.



Well, I'll tell you I work for what is considered one of the top performing companies in the F500, and the level of dysfunction is absolutely incredible - top to bottom. They continue to perform by taking away our benefits and raises and get their bonuses.

In the end - the biggest problem though across most projects is communication. People just in general don't communiate well, even though we have more means than ever to communicate with eachother than say 25 years ago. (E-mail, Texts, Cell phones.)

Communication is the root of it for us as well. Combine it with international staff in different time zones with different native languages, it can bog things down. You can ask simple question, that will generate a simple answer, yet when you are 12 hours apart, the delay can be maddening. If there are language differences, then it can be quite a bit worse.

 

[kamik86]

Quite honestly, these delays sound like every project I've worked on, in any line of business. You shoot for a target date, knowing full well that you'll likely miss it, but you hope to not hit the "Oh crap, we really messed this up" date.

Delays are inevitable, even with the best of the best.

Yes however unless disney's management are all idiots this means they did hit the "oh crap, we really messed this up" date.

The date you are supposed to hit should be an internal date. The customer date should be the big mess up date.

AT least that is how we do things. I have many times missed my internal dates (generally by only a day or two) and made the external ones.

 

[LaidBackDad]

Let's refrain from name calling please.

Anyways I have yet to see you present facts that Staggs left because of RoL.

I don't have as many post as some but I am a regular lurker. Rteetz is a top notch moderator, perhaps even destined for a career as a professional referee as this is a classic case of calling the foul for the retaliation, not the original infraction. I shouldn't have resorted to the "I'm rubber, your glue" card; but, that card doesn't have any effect if there wasn't a personal insult already directed towards me. FACT: Staggs resigned at nearly the same time as the RoL delay. FACT: we don't know the real reason why Staggs resigned and we don't know that RoL wasn't the last straw in the decision. Everything else is pure speculation. Lets keep thing fair for all sides, not just the apologist.

 

[rteetz]

I don't have as many post as some but I am a regular lurker. Rteetz is a top notch moderator, perhaps even destined for a career as a professional referee as this is a classic case of calling the foul for the retaliation, not the original infraction. I shouldn't have resorted to the "I'm rubber, your glue" card; but, that card doesn't have any effect if there wasn't a personal insult already directed towards me. FACT: Staggs resigned at nearly the same time as the RoL delay. FACT: we don't know the real reason why Staggs resigned and we don't know that RoL wasn't the last straw in the decision. Everything else is pure speculation. Lets keep thing fair for all sides, not just the apologist.

Ok I agree with you there. I do appreciate your input on the subject and yes both the resignation and delay happened at the same time I just think there isn't enough evidence to link the two together right now. Please feel free to post more often if you wish. I feel we have a lot of lurkers on this board and maybe not enough posters.

 

[TheRustyScupper]

Quite honestly, these delays sound like every project I've worked on

1) I have eleven (11) USA patents and have built manufacturing plants, worldwide.
2) Only once have I delayed a project beyond schedule or budget.
3) This is not rocket science.
4) I blame a lot of this on Joe Rohde - frequently, the things he touches come out wrong.
5) The HUGE reduction of Imagineering Staff by Disney (and it's subsequent outsourcing) shows.

 

[rteetz]

1) I have eleven (11) USA patents and have built manufacturing plants, worldwide.
2) Only once have I delayed a project beyond schedule or budget.
3) This is not rocket science.
4) I blame a lot of this on Joe Rohde - frequently, the things he touches come out wrong.
5) The HUGE reduction of Imagineering Staff by Disney (and it's subsequent outsourcing) shows.

Not everything Joe has done has come out wrong. That's also opinionated. In my opinion I think Joe has done really good things with AK.

 

[mcjaco]

1) I have eleven (11) USA patents and have built manufacturing plants, worldwide.
2) Only once have I delayed a project beyond schedule or budget.
3) This is not rocket science.
4) I blame a lot of this on Joe Rohde - frequently, the things he touches come out wrong.
5) The HUGE reduction of Imagineering Staff by Disney (and it's subsequent outsourcing) shows.

1) Ah yes, the I'm grander than everyone response.....spare me.
2) Looks like a 10% behind schedule rate. I'd say that's probably about average.
3) No. But it is new technology, and computer testing can only go so far.
4) That's ridiculous. Other than the Yeti problem, he's done pretty fantastic work.
5) Imagineering isn't all engineers. Can we stop throwing them into that bucket? And the staff certainly can't have expertise in every aspect of everything.

 

[Eoghann]

I can appreciate your opinion and love for Disney. We are all enthusiast on this site. Unfortunately, this is how things can start to turn ugly and a line is crossed from an enthusiast to an apologist. When you ignore every single fact which disproves your opinion and you can no longer deny that you have no rational basis for your point of view, you start making personal attacks. It's the internet, that is to be expected but still uncalled for. I merely have presented factual and logical observations. I refrained from belittling your baseless beliefs even after you called me an idiot (even though the feeling is likewise) and you later reaffirmed that statement. Really, it's difficult to tell by your avatar picture, which one of you is making the comments on this page.

You may wish to look in a mirror and read that back.

And I'll point out (again) that I didn't call you an idiot, I said you appeared ignorant of a specific type of work. The two statements are not remotely similar.

 

[DisneyLovingPreacher]

Yes however unless disney's management are all idiots this means they did hit the "oh crap, we really messed this up" date.

The date you are supposed to hit should be an internal date. The customer date should be the big mess up date.

AT least that is how we do things. I have many times missed my internal dates (generally by only a day or two) and made the external ones.

This is what really should be done. While I was in the Military I learned that the date with which they wanted to get things done internally and the day they told us it would be done externally was normally days if not months apart. With new technology comes new issues and problems that have never occurred before. Sometimes it's just an issue that you have to test and fail and retest till you get it correct.

 

[skier_pete]

Not everything Joe has done has come out wrong. That's also opinionated. In my opinion I think Joe has done really good things with AK.

I like what Joe has done, but he does seem to frequently go long and way over budget. Not sure that is to blame for the issues at Rivers of Light.

I wonder if the issues are the floats on the water. Disney is used to dealing with tracks under the water for most things. Even Fantasmic uses tracks for the steamboat and everything. They never drained the water in AK, so they couldn't have any tracks there. Just would be curious.

I also have to say - I would NEVER plan a vacation around a piece of entertainment opening. If I desparately wanted to see the Frozen Forever ride, I wouldn't try to book my trip for an phantom opening weekend. I would book 6 months after.

The Rivers of Light thing is pretty odd. It's rare that Disney announces a firm opening date without KNOWING that it will meet it. More typical is what we see with Frozen Fever which is "Summer 2016" and then they'll proabably give you an actual date only a few short weeks before the show - but by then it's usually already in CM previews.

 

[rteetz]

I like what Joe has done, but he does seem to frequently go long and way over budget. Not sure that is to blame for the issues at Rivers of Light.

I wonder if the issues are the floats on the water. Disney is used to dealing with tracks under the water for most things. Even Fantasmic uses tracks for the steamboat and everything. They never drained the water in AK, so they couldn't have any tracks there. Just would be curious.

I also have to say - I would NEVER plan a vacation around a piece of entertainment opening. If I desparately wanted to see the Frozen Forever ride, I wouldn't try to book my trip for an phantom opening weekend. I would book 6 months after.

The Rivers of Light thing is pretty odd. It's rare that Disney announces a firm opening date without KNOWING that it will meet it. More typical is what we see with Frozen Fever which is "Summer 2016" and then they'll proabably give you an actual date only a few short weeks before the show - but by then it's usually already in CM previews.

Yes from what I've heard the problems do have to do with the GPS system for the floats.

As for Joe he's not the only one who goes over budget though. Most of imagineering is notorious for doing such.

 

[DisneyLovingPreacher]

I like what Joe has done, but he does seem to frequently go long and way over budget. Not sure that is to blame for the issues at Rivers of Light.

I wonder if the issues are the floats on the water. Disney is used to dealing with tracks under the water for most things. Even Fantasmic uses tracks for the steamboat and everything. They never drained the water in AK, so they couldn't have any tracks there. Just would be curious.

I also have to say - I would NEVER plan a vacation around a piece of entertainment opening. If I desparately wanted to see the Frozen Forever ride, I wouldn't try to book my trip for an phantom opening weekend. I would book 6 months after.

The Rivers of Light thing is pretty odd. It's rare that Disney announces a firm opening date without KNOWING that it will meet it. More typical is what we see with Frozen Fever which is "Summer 2016" and then they'll proabably give you an actual date only a few short weeks before the show - but by then it's usually already in CM previews.

I completely agree with this and the problem may be even no tracks to guide the equipment involved. Of course even that doesn't avert disaster. My family and I saw two character full boats collide one time at Fantasmic.

 

[Eoghann]

Yes from what I've heard the problems do have to do with the GPS system for the floats.

As for Joe he's not the only one who goes over budget though. Most of imagineering is notorious for doing such.

And that is why I am willing to give Disney the benefit of the doubt on this one. Because that is not "construction", nor is it copying something that Disney already has elsewhere. If true I can see how the problem might not have been spotted until very late in the process when they finally got all the floats on the lake at one time.

 

[Eoghann]

The Rivers of Light thing is pretty odd. It's rare that Disney announces a firm opening date without KNOWING that it will meet it. More typical is what we see with Frozen Fever which is "Summer 2016" and then they'll proabably give you an actual date only a few short weeks before the show - but by then it's usually already in CM previews.

The Frozen one I find harder to excuse in some ways because there doesn't seem to be new technology in play and they are doing something they've done many times before. There was a fire and that could certainly cause some delay but that one looks more like bad planning.

 

[kengquist]

1) Norway (Epcot):
. . . the boats FINALLY start to go into the water TONIGHT (4/11/2016)
. . . these are the previous boats and boat designs
. . . many of the CM's don't think the boats can maneuver one of the turns, while Imagineers say, "Yes"
. . . the CM's think even if they navigate the turn, they will "bunch up"
. . . the ride test trials start SLOWLY tonight so we should see
. . . no word on soft or hard opening dates
2) Rivers of Light (AK):
. . . the show was cancelled from April 22nd due to technical difficulties
. . . three of the C's working on the project think June is a reasonable opening date
. . . again, we will see
. . . no word on soft or hard opening dates

NOTE: The above info is from CM's working on or in the rides, and not an official statement from WDW.

I hope River of Lights is open by May 2!! I've been watching to see if they change the park hours to accommodate. Hasn't happened yet

 

[adam.adbe]

I hope River of Lights is open by May 2!! I've been watching to see if they change the park hours to accommodate. Hasn't happened yet

Very unlikely.