No more 'cuts in line' for many disabled Knott's guests

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Stop telling me what I am feeling, it is not a nerve it is exasperation that healthy bodied people can be so thoughtless and selfish. I have been to Disney MANY TIMES and I have never encountered this phenomena of dozens of people tagging along. I am sure it happens in extreme cases, anything is possible and it angers me when people take advantage like that, however, you do not punish a whole class of people for what a select few do. I read the article and it stated an issue with people renting wheelchairs and taking advantage NOT TRULY DISABLED people.

We saw quite a lot of this on our last trip. Apparently other people have seen it to so please stop :furious: us over pointing out that it happend, frequently at least to us. If there is a 6 person policy in place at Disney and my party of 5 was traveling with your party of 4, being the rule abiding person that I am, my party of 5 would plan to meet up with you later at the parks/hotels and wait in the hour long line for the bus. Worst case, I'd allow you to take two of mine and the remaining 3 of us would plan to meet you later. If you seriously had a problem with this plan then I would invite you to wait at the accessible entrance the hour until my party made it to the front of the line.
What we saw on our trip were parties of 15-20+ boarding with one physically challenged guest. It was the rule rather than the exception.
 
Actually, the problem that I have with the Knott's system is it sounds great on paper, but in practice it doesn't work, you wait to get the return time, you wait to use it, you end up waiting an extra 30-60 minutes, this is not fair to anyone.

Again, I have not been there myself, but this comes from someone who goes frequently and should know. Now to be honest it is a shorter wait than on the old system, but still not right.

Maybe there are kinks to be worked out but I'm sure they will be in time. At least they realized they have an issue with abuses to the system and they are taking steps to correct that. Knee jerk reaction may be to hate the new system, but given time it'll probably work out for the best.
 
We saw quite a lot of this on our last trip. Apparently other people have seen it to so please stop :furious: us over pointing out that it happend, frequently at least to us. If there is a 6 person policy in place at Disney and my party of 5 was traveling with your party of 4, being the rule abiding person that I am, my party of 5 would plan to meet up with you later at the parks/hotels and wait in the hour long line for the bus. Worst case, I'd allow you to take two of mine and the remaining 3 of us would plan to meet you later. If you seriously had a problem with this plan then I would invite you to wait at the accessible entrance the hour until my party made it to the front of the line.
What we saw on our trip were parties of 15-20+ boarding with one physically challenged guest. It was the rule rather than the exception.


How about you stop dictating to me what I write and telling me what I feel. I do not believe you at all, I have been many times, I know people who have been many times, I even called a few and they have never seen this and several people on this thread have not seen it. I am not flaming mad as you want to label me, I am disgusted about people's attitudes of what is fair and not fair, you do not like what I type, do not read it, better yet put me on ignore. My child and our family where only on the "cut in line" when my daughter was with MAW, so I guess now in the interest of equality of those of you that are so low to complain of a wait longer than a disabled person, should start a letter writing campaign to end that practice, cause that just isnt fair that they get free Disney trips. We do NOT use a GAC if you actually took the time to read my posts. We hold my daughter, taking turns and she has a wonderful time at Disney. So again, do not tell me what to write, do not tell me what I am feeling, you are not me and you do not know what I am feeling.
 
OH! Let us take away handicapped parking, how dare handicapped people get preferential treatment like that! That is not fair! There are people who abuse that, so let us end it for all.
 

I think it's a good policy, especially being given a time to come back. My dad is out of shape, and overweight. He rented a scooter when we went to WDW in November, but I made sure he parked it before we entered an attraction - there is no reason why we should go to the front of the line. I'm sure many rent them for the same reason (no need for them to have heart attacks keeping up with their families), but take advantage of the system.
Just to be clear, renting a wheelchair or ECV at WDW or Disneyland and using it in lines does not get you to the front of the line.
I'm sorry, but separating a party to have a wheelchair bound person waiting alone is not equal treatment and access, unless they separate ALL parties. There really is very little of the original Knott's left, most of the old historic stuff was torn out when Cedar Fair/Cedar Point took over park operations from the Knott family years ago. And any NEW attraction should already be able to handle wheelchairs in the queue lines. If not, then they were extremely poorly and cheaply designed.
You are right.
Separating a party to have the disabled person and one member of their party wait alone while the rest of their party waits in line is NOT equal treatment. And, what about the group of 3 - 1 person has to wait alone?
Or, what about a group of 4 where the needs of the person with a disability means they need to keep their party together - do they have to separate anyway?
If they are going to give a "COME BACK" time, it needs to take into account things like 'extra wait' for an accessible car or for not being able to board because there were already as many people with special needs on the attraction as are allowed for evacuation safety or space.
We have already returned for our Fastpass return time and not been able to go on the attraction because all the accessible seats were already taken. We had to wait for the next show, even though they were still letting in people with Fastpasses for that show and were also taking people from the Standby line. Equal treatment? No way!

Most attractions built in any theme park since the ADA came into being in 1990 should have accessible lines. The older parks (especially Disneyland) were built way before there was any thought of making things accessible.
Lines in older parks were designed for one purpose - getting a steady line of people 'delivered' to the attraction (hopefully in a single file line for easier 'loading') as quickly as possible. The exit was designed to get people unloaded and out of the area as quickly and efficiently as possible to keep the steady line of passengers going.
Guests using wheelchairs, ECVs and with any types of disabilities were not considered in those kinds of designs. Some of the attractions had to board people with disabilities at the exit because the regular boarding area was far from the entrance, was on the opposite side of the ride track or was in-accessible in some other way.
Newer lines are wheelchair accessible and people with wheelchairs or ECVs wait in the same line with everyone else (these are called "Mainstream Lines").
As was already mentioned, after waiting in the "Mainstream Line", if you need a wheelchair accessible car, there is an extra wait. For example, when we rode the Nemo ride at Epcot in April, we went in the regular line and waited with everyone else. When we got to the front of the line and told the CM we needed the wheelchair accessible car, we were told to stand off to the side and they would call us when the car came around for us to board.
If we could have gotten into any car or if the wheelchair car would have been the next car, we would have waited the same time as everyone else (after all, we had already waited in line with everyone else). As it was, we had to wait for one entire ride cycle for the wheelchair car to come thru. I believe the ride itself is about 5 minutes. If each ride car normally seats 2-3 people, that means we let 2-3 people ahead of us for each clamshell ride car that passed us.
In 5 minutes, a heck of a lot of cars passed us (Wikipedia says that the capacity of the ride is 2,200 guests per hour (similar to Haunted Mansion), 36.67 people per minute. So, in a 5 minute wait, we let 183 people ahead of us.
How is that equal treatment?


AK and Disney's Hollywood Studio were built with all Mainstream Lines, so there are no separate wheelchair entrances at those parks. Epcot and MK had newer attractions built with Mainstream Lines and older attractions were renovated to be Mainstream if possible.
from the The WDW Guidebook for Guests with Disabilities lists Mainstream Attractions and also includes this information about the attractions that do not have Mainstream lines
"Some attractions have auxiliary entrances for Guests with disabilities. These are intended to offer Guests in wheelchairs or with service animals a more convenient entrance to the attraction. Auxiliary entrances are not intended to bypass waiting lines. Guests with disabilities and up to five members of their party may enter through these entrances. The rest of the party should use the main entrance."

Attractions providing mainstream queue access include:
Magic Kingdom® Park
• Ariel's Grotto
• Astro Orbiter
• Buzz Lightyear's Space Ranger Spin
• Donald's Boat
• Judge's Tent
• Mickey's Country House
• Mickey's PhilharMagic
• Minnie's Country House
• Monsters, Inc. Laugh Floor
• Pirates of the Caribbean
• Space Mountain®
• Splash Mountain®
• Stitch's Great Escape!™
• "The Enchanted Tiki Room Under New Management"
• The Hall of Presidents
• The Magic Carpets of Aladdin
• The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh
• Tomorrowland® Indy Speedway
• Toontown Hall of Fame
• Walt Disney's Carousel of Progress (seasonal)
Epcot®
• FUTURE WORLD
• Imagination!: All Attractions
• Innoventions East
• Innoventions West
• Mission: SPACE
• Test Track
• The Seas with Nemo & Friends: All Attractions
• The Land: All Attractions
• Universe of Energy: "Ellen's Energy Adventure"

• WORLD SHOWCASE
• China: "Reflections of China"
• France: "Impressions de France"
• FriendShip Boats
• Norway: Maelstrom
• The American Adventure: "The American Adventure"
Disney's Hollywood Studios™
• Disney's Hollywood Studios™ Backlot Tour
• Fantasmic!
• Lights, Motors, Action!™ Extreme Stunt Show
• Muppet*Vision 3D
• Playhouse Disney - Live On Stage!
• Rock 'n' Roller Coaster® Starring Aerosmith
• Sounds Dangerous - Starring Drew Carey
• Star Tours
• The Great Movie Ride
• The Magic of Disney Animation
• "The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror™"
• *Voyage of the Little Mermaid
• Walt Disney: One Man's Dream
Disney's Animal Kingdom® Theme Park
• Caravan Stage: "Flights of Wonder"
• DINOSAUR
• Expedition Everest™
• Finding Nemo - The Musical
• Grandmother Willow's Grove: "Pocahontas and Her forest friends"
• It's Tough To Be A Bug
• Kali River Rapids
• Kilimanjaro Safaris
• Lion King Theater: "Festival of the Lion King"
• Maharajah Jungle Trek
• Primeval Whirl
• The Boneyard
• TriceraTop Spin

Many people have complained about wheelchair/ECV users until they had to use a wheelchair or ECV because of a temporary injury. Somehow, actually using a wheelchair or ECV is a lot different than seeing people using one and many people say that once they have to 'live' it, they get it.
 
Anyone know first hand how bad the abuse was at Knotts?

In general, I would say that you should give everybody the benefit of the doubt. But after seeing how bad it was at Disneyland a number of years back, I am afraid I am jaded.
 
How about you stop dictating to me what I write and telling me what I feel. I do not believe you at all, I have been many times, I know people who have been many times, I even called a few and they have never seen this and several people on this thread have not seen it. I am not flaming mad as you want to label me, I am disgusted about people's attitudes of what is fair and not fair, you do not like what I type, do not read it, better yet put me on ignore. My child and our family where only on the "cut in line" when my daughter was with MAW, so I guess now in the interest of equality of those of you that are so low to complain of a wait longer than a disabled person, should start a letter writing campaign to end that practice, cause that just isnt fair that they get free Disney trips. We do NOT use a GAC if you actually took the time to read my posts. We hold my daughter, taking turns and she has a wonderful time at Disney. So again, do not tell me what to write, do not tell me what I am feeling, you are not me and you do not know what I am feeling.

Look I don't know what reason you have to think I or anyone else who have witnessed large handicapped parties getting on busses are lying. Just because you have not seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen! Wow. Just wow.:headache: What was in your Wheaties this morning? Why don't you take your own advice and not tell me or anyone else what we saw.

And since I have your attention, what is MAW and GAC? You might have posted it earlier but since I don't feel like dealing with your close-mindedness on 10 previous pages of postings to find out I'll just straight up ask it.

I'm sorry your daughter has multiple issues and I know it must be tough so I'll write your defensiveness off to that. Again, take it easy - I wasn't attacking or acusing you.
 
/
Look I don't know what reason you have to think I or anyone else who have witnessed large handicapped parties getting on busses are lying. Just because you have not seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen! Wow. Just wow.:headache: What was in your Wheaties this morning? Why don't you take your own advice and not tell me or anyone else what we saw.

Sorry, but handicapped people in parties of 15-20+ being the rule rather than the exception is hard to believe. Having such singular groups in such numbers that they made you :furious: is just....wow


what is MAW and GAC?

MAW is Make Wish. That organization which grants wishes to critically and terminally ill children. Those children and their families are currently the only ones who are allowed to cut the line at WDW. But I'm sure that will change, being that they get on the nerves of the able-bodied and healthy. Those MAW kids and their families should learn to wait their turn, or to split-up -even if that dampens their enjoyment, because fair is fair!

GAC is a guest assisance card, used mainly for people with invisible disabilities so they can wait in the shade, etc.
 
And since I have your attention, what is MAW and GAC?

Make A Wish: foundation that helps people (children, I believe) who have had very bad diseases and/or disorders (from what I gather) have magical times at Disneyland and Disneyworld. From what I've read, they get extra special treatment in honor of the difficulties they have had. :hug:

Guest Assistance Card: card to show CMs what sort of help you might need, so that you can have as equal as possible a time getting on and off of a ride, and during that ride, as another person who doesn't need anything different.



Those are my understandings of the things you have asked about. Hope they helped.
 
Anyone know first hand how bad the abuse was at Knotts?

In general, I would say that you should give everybody the benefit of the doubt. But after seeing how bad it was at Disneyland a number of years back, I am afraid I am jaded.

How do you know who was abusing it? You can not look at someone and know, really. From since they changed from SAPs Until recently they practically forced all needs to get a wheelchair, even if it would provide no benefit, this alone caused more abuse than anything and it wasn't really abuse, just people trying to get some sort of assistance.

Incidentally, by the numbers of the day, percentage of guests requesting SAPs: 25-3%, percentage of disabled in America: 60%, so it was being underutilized if DL gets an accurate cross section of America.

As for Make a Wish, I have a hard time standing, but I would gladly stand an extra 10 minutes (really it wouldn't be any more than that at any attraction that I can think of) for their party of ANY size to go ahead of me, they should be allow instant boarding in all cases (or as close as possible)
 
I'm sorry your daughter has multiple issues and I know it must be tough so I'll write your defensiveness off to that. Again, take it easy - I wasn't attacking or acusing you.
The problem is that we have lost so much lately, it is harder and harder to get the assistance that we actually NEED due to so many people thinking we are taking advantage, when as has been pointed out, we often wait LONGER and many times miss out on a lot of the queue, which can be extensively themed and almost be as much of the ride experience as the ride it's self, for example at WDW, many wheelchair guests have to miss out on the stretching room. And now people want to make it EVEN harder by splitting up our groups while we wait? The answer is NO WAY! And it is a lawsuit that is waiting to happen at Knott's, I don't know who will do it, but it will happen, the sooner the better, in my opinion at this point seeing the attitudes of so many out there, sorry, but it is getting frustrating to hear, I want to see all of you who are complaining, rent a wheelchair for a day and go by yourself to either WDW, DL or Knott's. And no cheating by walking anywhere.
 
Look I don't know what reason you have to think I or anyone else who have witnessed large handicapped parties getting on busses are lying. Just because you have not seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen! Wow. Just wow.:headache: What was in your Wheaties this morning? Why don't you take your own advice and not tell me or anyone else what we saw.

And since I have your attention, what is MAW and GAC? You might have posted it earlier but since I don't feel like dealing with your close-mindedness on 10 previous pages of postings to find out I'll just straight up ask it.

I'm sorry your daughter has multiple issues and I know it must be tough so I'll write your defensiveness off to that. Again, take it easy - I wasn't attacking or acusing you.

You are the one being defensive, practice what you preach, you take it easy and if you do not know what people are talking of, then educate yourself before you post. I do not know who pissed in your Wheaties, but obviously they had good reason to and take your own advice and stop telling me what I know.

Regardless of having a child with special needs, I have four healthy children before her and I can tell you, I never begrudged someone of special needs a space in line ahead of me, it speaks volumes of your character that you do. Stop putting words in my mouth, stop telling me what I feel and think, just stop, you obviously have deep seated character issues...oh yes, while you where at Disney droves of disabled people took over the park and kept all the non disabled peoples spots on buses and cut in line, yah right. And accusing is the correct spelling...what you do, not me.

YOU are the one that came on this thread constantly accosting me and telling me what I was feeling, again and again!
 
I could not have said it better myself, as you can tell from my post before yours.

Yes--I was busy typing-and self editing a few remarks-while you were posting....:goodvibes

Forgot to add:

It is POSSIBLE that another guest may say something rude to you. It is MORE LIKELY that as an ecv/wheelchair user people will make snide/rude/degrading remarks about you directly to your face or loudly enough for you and everyone within hearing distance to hear.
 
Wow! At Disneyland, unless there are only maybe 2 people with the wheelchair bound person, they send 1 or 2 people with the wheelchair to the disembark area. The rest of the party waits in line as usual. When the people in line get to boarding, the ones waiting with the wheelchair board too. Same wait, different accessibility.

You know I thought that was the way it worked at WDW too! In the past you would see people in wheelchairs go to the front but now they have to wait till their party goes through the line.
 
at disney almost all lines are accessible, so parties wait together. also, they dont split up parties nearly as much anymore. i for one would be livid if people told me i had to sit alone at the exit of the ride, waiting for my family to come through. that is not a FAMILY vacation...
 
Why not give something like that to a physically challenged party (1, 2, 10, 20 as many are in the party since it's irrelevant) and send them to a standby waiting area, shaded with seats, maybe even air conditioned :rotfl: . The next party that gets in line gets another special pass signifying the ride attendant to call upon the other waiting party.

Because the person in the main line has no interest in if the ecv/wheelchair party ever rides the ride. Just to be mean and petty (and there are apparently plenty of those people who would love the chance to "get back" at a disabled party for having "bennies" they don't get or for some other injustice they have endured at WDW by a disabled group --i.e. they got on a bus first!!!!!) that group could not bother giving the ride attendant the card or keep passing it further back in line to delay the ecv/wheelchair group.

Or what if they have to get out of line for an emergency potty break or other reason? There goes the card to signal the ride attendant.

It seems to me the issue here is not wanting to split up your party to adhere to a theme park policy which is attempting to make the waiting game a little more fair.

The issue is that able bodies families are not asked to split up. The next time you go on vacation with your family or friends--why don't you split up? I assume most people take a family vacation together to be together.

The other issue is simple needs--someone may have a child that it takes two people to carry, lift, assist, feed, manuever whatever.
 
Last fall, I went with my SIL and her ill, elderly mother to WDW who required a wheel chair. There were four of us in our group, including a 10 year old. I found most of the lines were very accessible, right up to the point of entry to the attraction. I couldn't imagine NOT enjoying the attractions together. I have stopped counting trips to WDW after hitting 30 visits over the years and I can't recall, one time being inconvenienced by large groups of people accompanying a wheel chair bound guest. I can recall being extremely annoyed at those "faking it". How did I know? Because I would see the same family at different areas of the parks, switching the wheel chair rider. When DS#3 was about 11 years old, he injured his knee and developed an infection while we were at WDW. He was unable to weight bear and we were given a wheel chair for our use by the Poly. After his third iv infusion of antibiotics from the emergency room, we went to Universal. We did have to go to guest relations to secure a special pass for handicap access. I think making that extra effort to do so, separates those who "fake it" from those who need it.
 
How did I know? Because I would see the same family at different areas of the parks, switching the wheel chair rider.QUOTE]

Wow--hope you never see me at a park. As part of my therapy routine I have to walk/hobble--however you want to describe it---for very small parts of the day (although I am trying to work up to larger parts of the day:) . Since I use an ecv and I can't just walk off and leave it I will often ask someone else in my party to move it (ride in it) while I exercise/walk.
 
There is also another side to this.
During the last trip, I HAD a GAC card, because I had a cats around my foot, etc etc. I almost never used it (just for the shows, so that I didn't ahve to walk all the stairs, they were a pain in the foot and a PITA). Sometimes, when wiating for rides, CMs noticed me and told me I could get a GAC card, to which I replied I already had it :)

One place where I really got annoyed by the way other people are, was on the busses. Standing in a bus on one foot, because you shouldn't put too much weight on nor do sudden moves with your other, is not that easy. Never ever have the bus drivers let me on first, never ever have they asked someone else to stand up and free up a seat for me, and never ever have I encountered a gentleman who stood up and let me sit. every time someone got up and told me "here, take my seat", it were young mothers with a child or older ladies. It made me realise gentlemen have gone the same direction as dinosaurs (i.e. extinction!) :)

ETA: btw, the reason we didn't rent an EVC was because I didn't feel comfortable driving it in the middle of the masses that are amzed by the magic and picie dust (didn't want any accidents to happen!) and we didn't rent a wheel chair because my mom would not have been able to push it (+ I got freaked out in my wheelchair at the airports, it's a weird height to see the world from, and it scared me to death!)
 
I can recall being extremely annoyed at those "faking it". How did I know? Because I would see the same family at different areas of the parks, switching the wheel chair rider.

I want to address this for a minute. Both my husband and I have walking disabilities. Mine are worse than his but he can't do a full day of walking in the parks and neither can I. We only rent one ecv and we do switch off. When one starts getting real tired and having problems we switch. We could get 2 ecv's but holy cow what a nightmare that would be! I couldn't even imagine trying to deal with the buses. How many buses would we have to cycle through until there was an opening for 2 ecv's on a bus. Never mind trying to "walk" side by side or shop together. Way too hard and it would seriously impact our vacation. Yes, someday it will come down to that I'm sure but until we don't go with our children we will continue to switch off.
So if you should see my and my hubby in the parks sharing an ecv, please don't be too quick to judge. I should add too that my son (18) has horrible knee problems and has a hard time doing a full day of walking too.
 
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