No more 'cuts in line' for many disabled Knott's guests

[Nancyg56]

I have pretty strong feelings about this issue. I have no disabilities. My children have no disabilities. We can go on any ride we choose, stand in lines, wait for buses, eat without assistance and breath without any tubes. I'll take my chances that the folks in front of me on the bus are faking. I'll watch people head into another line and not even think about it. We are able to vacation without making any more plans than where to eat or what park we want to be in.

I honestly have never noticed "cheaters" although I know that there are some people who think there is a benefit to a wheelchair. My friend was going to visit Christmas week, are you kidding me????? Nope, her DD told her that her wheelchair would get her to the front of the lines. Nope, sorry. Better make touring plans. They did their homework and found out the reality rather than the myth.

Years ago, after my brother had his children he and my DSIL took them and my SIL's brother to DW. Tom had never been, actually he had never been on a real family vacation. There were not many places that could accommodate him when he needed a wheelchair. In fact the few that did never let his family accompany him. He is still talking about the MK, and EPCOT was something he had never thought would happen. He was able to enter the attractions like everyone else. Finally.

Tom visited DW one more time with my brother and his family. He is 55 years old now and the changes that have happened in his lifetime that enable people with disabilities enjoy the world a little more have come a long way. Not far enough, IMO, but way better than 20 years ago. Tom was about 25 years old before he could enjoy a theme park.

Without the little courtesies that Disney affords people with disabilities many would be forced to visit through their TV sets. I don't care if there is abuse, in actuality I never noticed any but I am not looking for it either. Just from the few times I have pushed a wheelchair or toured EPCOT with a family member using an EC, I doubt that those "cheaters" would try this more than once. It is no fun trailing after the crowd, whether in an ECV or in a wheelchair. And if you had seen the poor man trying to shield his DD after Spectromagic when hordes of people were pushing all around her to get their favorite Wishes viewing spot, well it was just terrifying for them. And the only people who tried to keep the wave from drowning her was us, my 6"6" DH is pretty intimidating but not a real match for that drove.

Nope, don't change a thing. Taking a chance that we all would go back to the time when Tom just watched is not a good thing.

 

[addicted_to_WDW]

That is a good point. Now, name some that aren't illegal or discriminatory and will still allow my trached, tubefed, wheelchaired children to have fun.

Oh come on. No one is looking at your, "trached, tubefed, wheelchaired children" and saying, "geez kid, get to the back of the line." There are abusers and at some point (probably sooner rather than later) the abusers will cause fewer accommodations to be available for those who really need them.

Here's a bit of a change of subject. We recently took our 22nd WDW vacation, all but one being onsite and we've relied on WDW transportation for all of them. I have never, not once, seen a child in a wheelchair or EVC on a bus. It's usually elderly people but sometimes it is other adults. I'd venture to guess that most people with kids who rely on wheelchairs don't utilize WDW buses. Is that a fair assessment?

 

[alizesmom]

This thread keeps drawing me back. We are all in agreement, people abuse the system. How many abusers? Who knows, probably less than the able bodied think and more than the disabled wish to admit. Getting control of the abuses would solve the problem but guess what: IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.
People who abuse any system only care about themselves and will find ways to take advantage of anything they can. They are very creative too.

Some of you have suggested a compromise to prevent abuses. Compromise what? Compromise means give and take. It usually means that neither party is happy with the decision. Instead of complaining it would be interesting if people started suggesting solutions to the problem that would work for BOTH groups.

Odds are that this thread will die a natural death soon with nothing resolved, then in a few months or so it will pop up again with all the anger, accusations and drama. Think we could change that?

 

[AuntieM03]

Just as a side note: Knott's Berry Farm sucks pretty hard these days. Have done, in my opinion, since the family sold it. The exception being the Chicken House restaurant, but I digress I don't think Disney wants to emulate anything from Knotts. I must have pretty good experiences, because overall I have never had all the trauma people seem to encounter at WDW.

 

[amesv]

I have never, not once, seen a child in a wheelchair or EVC on a bus. It's usually elderly people but sometimes it is other adults. I'd venture to guess that most people with kids who rely on wheelchairs don't utilize WDW buses. Is that a fair assessment?

I can only speak for my family, but we prefer to bring our own van to WDW. I would guess that there are some elderly people who use ECVs only for occasions that require a lot of walking, so they may not have vehicles designed to transport them. A family with a child with a permanent disability *might* be more likely to drive their own specially equipped van.

I completely agree that people who "cheat" the system make it more difficult for the disabled and able-bodied alike. (And I know that cheaters are out there.) I don't know what the solution is.

 

[Heidict]

I read alot of sad things on this thread but without doubt this has to be the sickest and most disturbing yet.

Clearly selfish thoughtless able bodied people complained and maybe they should be hit by a bus and made quads

To actually wish that on someone is just sick and speaks volumes in and of itself. How could anyone say that? Wow, it's just so sad.

 

[bumbershoot]

I've just finished page 10 and wanted to post.

The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) specifies that people can't be forced to provide proof of disability to get the assistance they need. So, I don't need to prove each time I go into a store, ride, movie, etc. that my DD has cerebral palsy and can't walk so she needs her wheelchair. This may not seem like it would be a problem when people without disabilities look at it, but how would the average person who wears glasses like to have to provide some proof (like in the form of carrying their prescription around all the time) that they really need glasses. That might be an extreme example, but my DD's wheelchair is a adaptation to make up for her inability to walk, just like glasses are an adaptation for someone whose eyes have an inability to focus without glasses so they can see clearly.

Exactly.

All I meant was its just too bad there couldn't be a better way to enforce things so the cheaters can be weeded out.

And....to prevent the abuses means my child or some other handicapped individual who needs the accomodations as they are right now might suffer from the changes.

Compromise is not one group being guilted into blindly accepting the demands of the other.

No one gets everything they want, and if you choose to not take your child to WDW because of a change in queues or procedures that's your issue.

There's a law in place to try to help people who need help get that help, without being subjected to questioning each and every time. There is no compromise in that, and there shouldn't be.

It is more important to make sure people with disabilities are protected, not go after the few cheaters, who are almost impossible to find anyway

Absolutely.

I also find it offensive when the argument becomes, "how dare you be against poor disabled children," when the issue at hand is, "there should be policies in place to stop the abusers."

In order to put those policies into place, you ARE causing roadblocks for those with disabilities. There is no one or the other.


********
I have posted before about how I learned about the ADA and the help it provides.

We lived in an apt building on the 3rd floor, with the stairway outside, so you passed by each door as you went to the sidewalk. On the 2nd floor, a woman moved in with what she called a service dog. It was supposed to be a service dog that warned her of her epilepsy, which is wonderful! Only problem was, she NEVER took that dog with her. EVER. The dog, and later on dogs, was always at home alone with her small daughter and her boyfriend of the week (which meant he had NO control over the dog b/c the boyfriend was never the dog's master at all).

The biggest problem was that the dog was big, aggressive, and untrained. She was protective over her family, but no one explained to her that there were 6 apartments in the building, which meant 5 other families that she had to allow to come and go in peace.

The owner of the dog used to manage apartments, which meant she knew the laws...the manager of our complex (now our landlady in our condo) knew the dog wasn't actually a service dog (though she too was aware that dogs for that purpose absolutely do exist!), and wanted the tenants to keep her informed of what the dog was up to (she was not informed by the tenant when another dog showed up, we informed her of that).

Well, after my 300+ lb husband was cornered in his car for the second time, while the boyfriend stood in the doorway of his 2nd floor apartment, while the owner of the dog was off at work, boyfriend calling ineffectively for the dog for 5 minutes before he finally walked down the stairs to get her, we decided enough was enough.

I had already looked into the ADA, and I had realized that ANY measure put in place that could have kept this woman from lying and calling that dog a service dog, would negatively impact people who TRULY needed a service dog for that need. It just so happened that the dogs were of a breed otherwise not allowed in the apt complex, and we absolutely believe she called the female (the only one she told management about) a service dog so she could get the dog into the complex.

But anything that I might wish for, to keep that woman and her pet (since I don't believe it was a service dog) away from my family (remembering that the dog, regardless of breed, was untrained, aggressive, overly protective, and let out without a leash every evening) would cause PROBLEMS for the other people who might have the same type of dog for the type of problem the woman said she had.

And I decided that even philosophically I didn't want it to be harder on people who already have it rougher than another person.

So we moved. Simple.


I personally have never noticed anyone taking advantage of a wheelchair or ECV at Disneyland. But if I did, well, I'd instantly think that they had asthma (as I sometimes do) and couldn't take the walking, or they were pregnant with extremely painful knees and hips like I had when pg, or they had MS like the patients I took care of when I had m chiropractic practice, and so on and so forth. And even if I paid enough attention to decide they were faking something, who cares?

I have no interest in making things harder for people who need the help, just to stop abusers. The ADA did good things for people who need help. I don't want to dilute it to stop sneaky people.

If only everyone else could see it my way.

 

[MosMom]

There are people who make comments about people with VISIBLE disabilities. Been there done that.

Like I said before, I think the people that have problems with this really need to remember that riding around in a wheelchair or ECV does NOT increase the speed or pleasure of touring the parks unless, of course, you really need them. Whatever abusers are out there are only hurting themselves whether they realize it or not. So next time you see someone you suspect is abusing the system, smile and take a deep breath. That way you don't shoot a dirty look at someone who possibly doesn't deserve it and deep down you will know if they are scammers, in the end they are only slowing themselves down.

 

[sandy6879]

I think a reasonable step would be for WDW to run more buses. We were there 2 years ago and witnessed the abuse of 15-20 people at a time going in front of the people who'd been waiting for 45 minutes. I know some of you are claiming you've never seen this but it's been going on for a LONG time, I started noticing it back in 2003. I posted this the last time this topic came up - the waits for the buses are long to begin with. Add in the heat, the fact that there is nowhere to get water if you need one while standing there, and people are pretty irritated before this situation even arises.

To be honest, we will not be using the bus system during our next visit with the exception of Magic Kingdom. We'll be renting a car and dealing with going to the parking lots rather than taking advantage of a free service from WDW. I have nothing but the utmost compassion for people who are in need of special services. However, I am also concerned for my child, who was ready to pass out from heat exhaustion from waiting through 4 buses to come and go at Animal Kingdom when large parties would literally come up and go on the first bus that came. No matter what either side says here, there isn't a "fair" solution to this situation with the exception of running more buses, which would be a start.

To add in a side note, I have no issues whatsoever with the way this is handled at the rides themselves, I think that's been handled in a good way for the most part (although I've been run over by my fair share of ECV's as well). It's really the resort transportation system that leaves much to be desired.

 

[MosMom]

We always rent a car at Disney. It is SOOO worth it. I haven't ridden a bus in ages and I like it that way. Driving into the parks is so much easier.

 

[alizesmom]

Oh come on. No one is looking at your, "trached, tubefed, wheelchaired children" and saying, "geez kid, get to the back of the line." There are abusers and at some point (probably sooner rather than later) the abusers will cause fewer accommodations to be available for those who really need them.

Here's a bit of a change of subject. We recently took our 22nd WDW vacation, all but one being onsite and we've relied on WDW transportation for all of them. I have never, not once, seen a child in a wheelchair or EVC on a bus. It's usually elderly people but sometimes it is other adults. I'd venture to guess that most people with kids who rely on wheelchairs don't utilize WDW buses. Is that a fair assessment?

Warning: this comes across as sarcasm. It is not meant to. I'm trying to get my head around the general definition of disabled.

That's just what I'm trying to say. Abusers are going to reduce accomodations for us. The other thing is: Since my kids are very obviously disabled, does that mean it would be more acceptible for them to get the benefits vs the very normal looking child who can walk some but is slated for major heart surgery? Am I supposed to be grateful for that?

As to transportation at Disney, we did have our own car because we didn't stay on property. Had we stayed at Disney we would have used their transport system.

 

[addicted_to_WDW]

The other thing is: Since my kids are very obviously disabled, does that mean it would be more acceptible for them to get the benefits vs the very normal looking child who can walk some but is slated for major heart surgery? Am I supposed to be grateful for that?

Well, therein lies the problem and because of the ADA there's no good solution. Honestly, if I were going to have heart surgery and needed assistance, I would have no problem getting a note from my doctor stating that. As it stands now people can and do make up reasons that they need special accomodation. Is it everyone? No. I'm well aware of the "hidden disability" phenomenon, but as evidenced on this thread there are people with first hand experience with relatives and friends who lie to get a GAC.

 

[KPeveler]

Well, therein lies the problem and because of the ADA there's no good solution. Honestly, if I were going to have heart surgery and needed assistance, I would have no problem getting a note from my doctor stating that. As it stands now people can and do make up reasons that they need special accomodation. Is it everyone? No. I'm well aware of the "hidden disability" phenomenon, but as evidenced on this thread there are people with first hand experience with relatives and friends who lie to get a GAC.

can you imagine the hassel is we had to "prove" we were disabled everywhere??? also, who would decide disability? dr? govt? are there different levels of disability? if you are not *very* disabled, you cant use a wheelchair, but that guy over there can, because his doctor thinks differently? can you imagine the trouble that would cause?

 

[addicted_to_WDW]

can you imagine the hassel is we had to "prove" we were disabled everywhere??? also, who would decide disability? dr? govt? are there different levels of disability? if you are not *very* disabled, you cant use a wheelchair, but that guy over there can, because his doctor thinks differently? can you imagine the trouble that would cause?

How often would you need to prove anything, though? Someone who really needed accomodation would have the necessary documentation (just a note, really) which would ensure that someone wanting to scam the system would at least have to go through a little more effort.

Here in DC there is a program called MetroAccess which gives people with disabilities door to door transportation for the same price as regular public transportation. I haven't paid much attention to the particulars because it doesn't affect me, but the big issue at the moment is people having to certify their need for MetroAccess once every three years. Some are claiming that it is too intrusive. I say if you want extremely heavily subsidized transportation, getting a note every three years isn't too much to ask.

 

[In a hurry]

That reminds me of what someone in the medical field (a nurse in the hospital I believe) told the mother of a friend. The mother was on the list for a kidney transplant. some had the nerve to tell her that if she lsot weight, she probably wouldn't need a kidney transplant.
Hmm...never mind the fact that she was only 15-20 lbs over her ideal weight and that the weight gain was due to kidney failure, steroids and the several liters of saline they had to pump into her admonal cavity as a part of her treatment to keep her alive until a match could be found.
within the same week her Dr put her on ensure because she was malnurished but yet she had someone judging her and saying that she put herself in the situation she was in due to being overweight.

How terrible. Some people are just far beyond rude.

 

[bumbershoot]

How often would you need to prove anything, though? Someone who really needed accomodation would have the necessary documentation (just a note, really) which would ensure that someone wanting to scam the system would at least have to go through a little more effort.

Sigh.


Stopping scammers just isn't important enough to cause MORE problems for people already dealing with quite a lot.

 

[In a hurry]

Sigh.


Stopping scammers just isn't important enough to cause MORE problems for people already dealing with quite a lot.

True. The idea of having to get a doctor's note to say I needed one the day I did would have been silly.

 

[SereneOne]

Interestingly I see a lot of jealousy of handicapped individuals towards the able bodied on this thread.

No one is saying "don't come". Most are just pointing out that there are abuses, not that every single person is guilty of it. Get mad at those abusing the system and causing a pall on the rest.

Interestingly, I see a lot of jealousy of "able bodied" people towards the handicapped on this thread. The whole purpose of the thread was to complain about an accommodation afforded to the handicapped to even the playing field.

My daughter is medically fragile, that is her challenge and we all have them. It is obvious several on this thread are morally and emotionally deficient, challenges that are worse in my opinion. You want to even the playing field of what you (generic you) see as special privileges for the handicapped, then you need to take on the special burdens they have also, after all, it is only "fair" as so many of you keep blathering about.

I am sure if some of you saw my daughter you would think she was not handicapped unless you saw me tube fed her and would complain. Luckily, Disney being the truly magical place that it is, she gets to go there and forget her problems (yes, even amidst the tube feedings and breathing treatments, you get to forget the heartaches and challenges of the past year, we go in December, and this year we are doing the MDGPPTP and it is all she talks about besides her new kitten ).

Disney is so accommodating that we need no GAC, even with ALL her issues. We wait in line and if she gets tired we carry her in line.

Want to talk about injustices, let us talk about the constant humiliations and injustices the handicapped must face every day because of the prejudice of so many, it makes me sick.

 

[KPeveler]

How often would you need to prove anything, though? Someone who really needed accomodation would have the necessary documentation (just a note, really) which would ensure that someone wanting to scam the system would at least have to go through a little more effort.

there are many levels to disability. now are you saying that i have to have a dr's note every time i use my wheelchair? that a place can tell me i cant bring my wheelchair in because i dont have a dr's note?? I don't have a note. I bought my wheelchair myself. My old dr is aware, my new one is not. can you see someone telling a person who has been in a wheelchair their whole lives that they must prove they need the wheels?? what do i have to do, try to stand and fall?

what about temporary disabilities - when my mom pinched a nerve in her foot, should we have had to go to the ER in orlando, paid $1000s in out-of-network costs, when we knew what was wrong? she needed a wc for one day at disney. that sounds to me like you are punishing people for getting hurt...

i cant afford a lot of drs right now, and i am un-dx'ed, so it is even harder to get a "dr's note" saying what is wrong - we dont know!

do you see where the problems arise?

and your Metro comparison is inappropriate for the situation: yes, people have to prove disabilties for things that the average able-bodied person does not get, like discounted fare. the same goes for SSI/SSID, HC parking, special housing disocunts, etc

however, we should NOT have to prove disability for EQUAL ACCESS, like going to the mall. THAT is what is illegal

 

[SereneOne]

I read alot of sad things on this thread but without doubt this has to be the sickest and most disturbing yet.




To actually wish that on someone is just sick and speaks volumes in and of itself. How could anyone say that? Wow, it's just so sad.

That is not what I said, I did not wish it on anyone, I suggest you go back to school and take reading comprehension. I would not wish the challenges on anyone that the handicapped have, I stated maybe then the high and mighty that sneer and get up in arms over punishing a whole classification of people should know how it feels. It speaks volumes about you that you read into something intent that was not there. Sick and disturbing is punishing handicapped people for what a few lowlifes do and will continue to do despite the fact that it has been posted in this thread numerous times that most all rides are now wheelchair accessible and how most wait LONGER than those not in the lines that are accommodating.


I know how to solve all the problems at Disney, let us just close all the parks and everyone can sit at home, there you go, problem solved!