No more 'cuts in line' for many disabled Knott's guests

[KPeveler]

If I had the solution I'd be a lot richer than I am now!

I guess my whole point is that any suggestion here that there is abuse of the system is met with people coming out of the woodwork to list their ailments or those of their children and then suggesting that people who feel there is abuse and that policies should be changed are anti-disabled children, puppy kicking people who worship satan in their spare time.

I think the reason we get defensive is that WE have been told we are faking, because people switch off in wheelchairs (which I have done) or rolled one day and walked the next (which i have also done), or gotten up and walked without a limp (yep, me again). My disabilities are all invisible, but they are there! and disney is the only place i go that handles it so well...

it will all be a moot point soon - almost all lines are accessible, and as they redo rides, they become more accessible. so those of us with wcs will be in line like everyone else

 

[MosMom]

Often, it doesn't matter if a disability is invisible. You still get stares and nasty comments even when a disability is visible. People really don't care.

I think the suggestion of having the entire party wait together for at least one bus when there is an extremely long line seems reasonable. That way, they are waiting but still get to be the first to load and they get to ride together as a family.

I think it would be wrong of Disney to advertise "Grand Gatherings" and promote traveling in large parties and then punish the disabled for having too many people with them.

Having disabled people enjoy the park does not ruin my day. My sister is disabled and while she does not need a wheelchair, we did get special seating for shows as she is legally blind and deaf. We got stares and comments even for that and she is visibly disabled. It disgusts me and until you've experienced the other side it is hard to understand.

 

[LakeAriel]

QUOTE=addicted_to_WDW;25872327]If I had the solution I'd be a lot richer than I am now!

I guess my whole point is that any suggestion here that there is abuse of the system is met with people coming out of the woodwork to list their ailments or those of their children and then suggesting that people who feel there is abuse and that policies should be changed are anti-disabled children, puppy kicking people who worship satan in their spare time.[/QUOTE]


This is unfortunately so true..I have been a member of these boards for years. This topic ALWAYS disintegrates into something the OP never intended. I go to Disney at least once a year. There has never been a trip that I have not witnessed abuses. Example; child with so called sprained ankle..Seen hopping and jumping out of her wheel chair till Mom gives her the "look". Oops back in chair..Gets on bus with 10 other members of her party, leaving chair. No limp once on the bus..Obese people ( I am one) in EVC's because it is hard to walk. Aging people ( I am one of those too)..in EVC's. You wait in line for 30 minutes and here they come scooting over and they and their party of 10 go in the back..over and over. Yes, people are angry! I personally know someone who has a GAC for her son! There is nothing wrong with him but she told me Disney is prohibited from insisting on a Drs note! There will come a time in the not too distant future I will not be able to handle the walking and standing in Disney..I will change my vacation plans..If I need an EVC I will do what another poster described..Have my party wait in line and get on when it is my turn!

This has nothing to do with truly handicapped children or adults!!!!!!!
I wish you/them only the best!! This thread is about the abuses that are rampant!

The abusers are the people you should be angry with!

 

[Chuck S]

I wonder, and I don't know the answer to this, but EVCs and Wheelchairs are boarded first. I think we all understand why. Does federal law state that they get to board first the first bus that comes or just the bus that it would be appropriate for them to take?

What I'm getting at, is let's say there are 60 people in line for a bus and the wheelchair and accompanying party show up. Clearly, 60 people aren't getting on the bus so at minimum that party would naturally be on at least the 2nd bus that shows up, right? Why not have them board first on bus #2 rather than skip ahead of the 60 people already there to be first on bus #1? I doubt federal law addresses this, but maybe I'm wrong.

That's OK, it makes up for the times we've had to wait for several busses even though we were the first people at our bus stop because 1)they were already too full of able bodied people, so no room for wheelchairs 2)there were already two ECVs or wheelchairs aboard 3) the driver "didn't see us" 4) lift/ramp out of order.

 

[sha_lyn]

This is unfortunately so true..I have been a member of these boards for years. This topic ALWAYS disintegrates into something the OP never intended. I go to Disney at least once a year. There has never been a trip that I have not witnessed abuses. Example; child with so called sprained ankle..Seen hopping and jumping out of her wheel chair till Mom gives her the "look". Oops back in chair..Gets on bus with 10 other members of her party, leaving chair. No limp once on the bus..Obese people ( I am one) in EVC's because it is hard to walk. Aging people ( I am one of those too)..in EVC's. You wait in line for 30 minutes and here they come scooting over and they and their party of 10 go in the back..over and over. Yes, people are angry! I personally know someone who has a GAC for her son! There is nothing wrong with him but she told me Disney is prohibited from insisting on a Drs note! There will come a time in the not too distant future I will not be able to handle the walking and standing in Disney..I will change my vacation plans..If I need an EVC I will do what another poster described..Have my party wait in line and get on when it is my turn!

This has nothing to do with truly handicapped children or adults!!!!!!!
I wish you/them only the best!! This thread is about the abuses that are rampant!

The abusers are the people you should be angry with!

So you know for a fact that non of these people were really disabled, or are you jumping to conclusions because of their weight, age and/or the fact that some could actually get out of the chair/EVC

The fact is that most of us do not believe that abuses are rampant.
Unless you have been directly told by an abuser (as in your claim above) that they really do not need an EVC, wheelchair or GAC there is no way for you to know this. A casual observance of someone not limping, walking etc does not equate that they do not have a disability.

 

[Hoodie]

How will breaking Federal law solve anything? The EVCs/Wheel chairs must board first.
My assumptions are made from direct interaction with you on this thread. It's not had to jump to such conclusions when you yourself admit you came to the DIS to read the disability board to find out if anyone really needs an EVC. not to mention the fact that you want WDW to break federal law just so you don't have to be unconvinced a tad.

They need to be loaded first on the bus. That's fine, frankly safer. It's also pretty rude to see several busloads of people and go to the front, disabled or not.

I came on because I KNOW people need them, but after my last trip I needed validation that there were good people that needed them because of the utter rudeness of some people. I came on because I know that the majority of people are good and really need it to enjoy the parks and mean no harm, which frankly I was beginning to question after getting honked at, crashed into, yelled at, shoved out of the way, had my goddaughter literally run over and witnessed others get the same treatment. This is NOT any problem I've seen with wheelchairs, strictly EVCs. People seem to forget that it is a vehicle and fail to operate them that way. Honestly it had very little to do with cutting in front of lines, etc. and much more to do with the attitude of those driving them. Unfortunately, those that are rude get the attention. I'm sure most EVCs go unnoticed as the operators are responsible and don't run over small children, but it's the rude ones that get noticed.

 

[MosMom]

That's OK, it makes up for the times we've had to wait for several busses even though we were the first people at our bus stop because 1)they were already too full of able bodied people, so no room for wheelchairs 2)there were already two ECVs or wheelchairs aboard 3) the driver "didn't see us" 4) lift/ramp out of order.

This is an important post and shows that when you see a snapshot of something at Disney, it is just that. Nobody pays attention when they aren't inconvenienced to the entire experience of people in wheelchairs and ECV's.

 

[LakeAriel]

So you know for a fact that non of these people were really disabled, or are you jumping to conclusions because of their weight, age and/or the fact that some could actually get out of the chair/EVC

The fact is that most of us do not believe that abuses are rampant.
Unless you have been directly told by an abuser (as in your claim above) that they really do not need an EVC, wheelchair or GAC there is no way for you to know this. A casual observance of someone not limping, walking etc does not equate that they do not have a disability.

Yes, I heard the conversation myself...

"A casual observance of someone not limping, walking etc does not equate that they do not have a disability"

I agree..that does not mean abuse isn't rampant.

 

[TomLovesBecky]

My attitude, and the one I am teaching my children, is thank God you are able-bodied and do not have to be in a wheelchair or have some other disability, you should be humbled and grateful, not angry because you have to wait an extra 15 minutes for another bus!!!!!!! And I would be very disappointed if my kids got upset over it, yes it's an inconvenience but think of how much more inconvenient it is to be in a wheelchair. Again I say thank God we do not have any disabilities, plus someday that could be us, you never know. So I teach them to be gracious and not resentful.

 

[ICF]

As I've stated b4, the accommodations the Disney has currently in place is perfect.

I'm pretty sure even Disney would say their system is FAR from perfect.

 

[MosMom]

Don't you think the "abusers" are really hurting themselves? They think they are pulling one over on the rest of us but really, they aren't. Pushing a wheelchair or dealing with an ECV really SLOWS you down. In the end, they aren't getting ahead. That is the main thing anyone worked up about this should remember.

 

[KPeveler]

Yes, I heard the conversation myself...

"A casual observance of someone not limping, walking etc does not equate that they do not have a disability"

I agree..that does not mean abuse isn't rampant.

how do you know the abuse is rampant? since you just said above that you agree that you cant tell just by looking at someone, how do you know?

do you know how many kids who are not supposed to be walking on an injured limb have to have their mother give them the "look" to get off their sprained ankle? And how do you know overweight and aging people use scooters just because they are overweight and old? you CANNOT know these things simply by looking at someone.

today i walked up two flights of stairs and i can even hop, skip, and run for a few minutes. tomorrow, i may not be able to move my legs. Welcome to the world of MS! you can't know, and it is generally a better idea to give people the benefit of the doubt, since you cannot know.

abuse is NOT rampant, but there are some people who use ECVs who are loudly rude, so those are the people you remember

 

[In a hurry]

Don't you think the "abusers" are really hurting themselves? They think they are pulling one over on the rest of us but really, they aren't. Pushing a wheelchair or dealing with an ECV really SLOWS you down. In the end, they aren't getting ahead. That is the main thing anyone worked up about this should remember.

Absolutely. I was in one during a problem pregnancy. (We were just there for a special event) and it was miserable. I just love seeing people's butts all day. People jumped in front of me, and then gave me a "look."

It does make me wonder why some think it is so great. I'd love to see those who complain so much have to spend a day in one.

 

[Talking Hands]

I am talking about the experience of 17-22 able bodied people being allowed to use the pass and get in line. It does not happen often, but it is a shame that a person can't vent about it happening without being tossed a guilt trip.

Believe me, our family has its share of very ill children. VERY ill. But I still can step back and understand the frustration of others.

My experience with Disney has been over 33 years and going an average or 4-5 times a year. My experience as a person with handicaps has been over the past 15 years as my fibromyalgia and osteoarthritis has become progressively worse. Recently degenerative disc disease and diabetic neuropathy has been added to the mix. And then there is my hearing loss which started 20 years ago.

It is very rare for 17-22 able bodied people to get in line andenter a ride. Now there is no pass for using the buses and it is up to the driver to control how many get on with a guest in a wheelchair. If you have a problem with his decision or lack of one then you need to contact a transportation lead or send a letter of complaint to guest services.

Only a few times have I experienced a group larger than 5 plus the handicapped guest. All were reasonable situations. A family with a parent in a wheelchair and 5 children under the age of 8 that needed to be kept wit the parents, a family with 3 elderly people in ECVs and they were allowed to stay together, and myself and a classmate, both in wheelchairs and our fellow classmates making a total of ten and allowed to remain together. I know in my friend and my case, we each had our own GAC and it was checked and if we had had over the allotted number it could not have been done and we would have had to split up.

Disney doesn't need to change to Knott's rules. They sound very inflexible. Disney goes on a case by case basis, which is what all theme parks should do. I know those of us with power wheelchairs would have a difficult time with coming back as criss crossing the park several times would use up too much of the battery charge. I'd end up waiting in the area until I could ride anyway. And waiting alone while your family goes through the line is not equality but discrimination and would never happen to a group of able bodied people. Until they take one person out of every group to wait alone until their group goes through the line, it is not an acceptible solution.

An example of case by case is myself. I use a power wheelchair and also have several other invisible disabilities including hearing loss and being in the autism spectrum. Normally at Beauty and the Beast I would be seated at the back of the theater but because I use the interpreting I am allowed to go to the front where I transfer to a bench seat and my wheelchair is parked. Can they further accommodate me by allowing me to remain in the power wheelchair. No, because to do so would pose a danger to the interpreters as the pwc would be too close to the area they need to work in.

Another example, is the Great Movie Ride. Normally guests in wheelchairs transfer to the back row of the car but in my case they allow me to transfer to the front row beside the driver/speaker so I can hear the spiel.

 

[Ciao Mickey]

Interestingly I see a lot of jealousy of handicapped individuals towards the able bodied on this thread.
No one is saying "don't come". Most are just pointing out that there are abuses, not that every single person is guilty of it. Get mad at those abusing the system and causing a pall on the rest.

Wow, you should get over yourself and try to show a little compassion towards the handicapped. You never know if one day you might be in the same boat, or should I say, bus.

Where you see *jealousy* I see *frustration* in trying to get across to some posters how difficult their everyday life is.

 

[DawnCt1]

This is a list of Mainstream Attractions from the WDW website.
Mainstream Lines are lines that
As I pointed out back a few pages, someone in a Mainstream Line , like the Nemo ride at Epcot, waits in the same line with everyone else. If they don't need a wheelchair accessible car, they will get into the next clamshell that comes along - just like everyone else.

I found most of the lines were very accessible, right up to the point of entry to the attraction.
I agree and this is what I posted in my first response to this thread.

 

[alizesmom]

Exactly. I don't understand why those with handicapped loved ones would take this thread as a personal affront. Don't internalize everything and don't make the thread about YOU, because it is not, but rather the abusers. I thought that was pretty cut and dried, but apparently not.....

The problem is while complaining about the abusers who do exist the poster tends to either not suggest a solution or suggests a solution which will impair our ability to enjoy Disney. To use an old saying they are "throwing out the baby with the bathwater"

 

[alizesmom]

Ithe issue at hand is, "there should be policies in place to stop the abusers."

That is a good point. Now, name some that aren't illegal or discriminatory and will still allow my trached, tubefed, wheelchaired children to have fun.

 

[cmwade77]

Originally Posted by Stella3
Exactly. I don't understand why those with handicapped loved ones would take this thread as a personal affront. Don't internalize everything and don't make the thread about YOU, because it is not, but rather the abusers. I thought that was pretty cut and dried, but apparently not.....

Actually, I don't think anyone but those of us that have the needs should worry about abusers, believe me, it impacts us the most, as it increases our wait times exponentially, my philosophy on this is, that those that need assistance should be encouraged to point out abusers (i.e. in one of my previous posts where people give their GAC to another member of the party) to the nearest CM and let it be handled, abuse of the system will virtually stop. Now, the rules that are in place do need to be enforced, but there are some attractions where the 6 people rule just doesn't need to apply, for example at DL, at POC, they will let any number accompany, if they can all fit in one boat, the reason is that they will only board wheel chair parties on that boat anyway, so it is not taking away from others, but the point is that's the rule, so that's what is enforced, the rules do need to be enforced, short of that, don't worry about who is abusing the system, really it may cause you a 5 minute delay, but if there were a different system it could cause you a 30 minute delay or more at some attractions. So bottom line:

STOP WHINING!

Ok, sorry, that sounded rude, but really, show some compassion, it is truly sad that it has to be said to do so.

To the OP, the system at Knott's is failing miserably, people should not have to split up to wait for an attraction, this is not equal access and is a violation of the ADA. In addition it is causing an extra 30+ minutes delay per attraction per wheelchair guest, again, not equal access.

Now, really, I have no problem with the idea of a return time pass, but the following must be taken into account:

1. The wait time at each attraction upon return.
2. The current wait time

Total wait time should never be any more than the normal stand-by line (nor should it be any less), that is EQUAL access. Will this happen, no, because it would be virtually impossible, just know that wait times do average out over the course of the day, sometimes things will be faster and sometimes it will be slower, so stop complaining about all of the perceived abuse (Which NO ONE has been able to explain how they know it is happening so far, with the exception of really large parties on RARE occasions getting through).

 

[sha_lyn]

do you know how many kids who are not supposed to be walking on an injured limb have to have their mother give them the "look" to get off their sprained ankle? And how do you know overweight and aging people use scooters just because they are overweight and old? you CANNOT know these things simply by looking at someone

That reminds me of what someone in the medical field (a nurse in the hospital I believe) told the mother of a friend. The mother was on the list for a kidney transplant. some had the nerve to tell her that if she lsot weight, she probably wouldn't need a kidney transplant.
Hmm...never mind the fact that she was only 15-20 lbs over her ideal weight and that the weight gain was due to kidney failure, steroids and the several liters of saline they had to pump into her admonal cavity as a part of her treatment to keep her alive until a match could be found.
within the same week her Dr put her on ensure because she was malnurished but yet she had someone judging her and saying that she put herself in the situation she was in due to being overweight.