News Flash Ms Call Changes!!!

[DonnaL]

I think the name says it all "MEMBER SERVICES".........I have nothing against a member renting their points.....however, if a member chooses to rent their points they should handle ALL aspects of the booking. I think too many renters have been able to make their own plans using Member Services and rave about what a great deal they got renting someone elses points and not having to pay even close to rack rate for the accomodations they got. I just don't believe, as a member, that member dues should cover the need to hire more MS reps due to SO many members renting points and allowing the renter to contact MS on their own and creating such a need. Not to mention the fact when I, as a member, need to contact MS I'm holding that much longer possibly waiting for a renter to complete their plans on my dollar.....just doesn't seem right. That is not to say I myself will never rent points to someone.......haven't yet and don't see it happening anytime soon, but, if I ever do ....I will certainly handle all aspects of the booking. When you come right down to it.......all a renter SHOULD be able to get is accomodations......they really shouldn't even be allowed to get ADR's, DDP, and whatever through MS at all.....even with the owner making the arrangements. If the owner isn't registered for the same time period none of the above should be even available. The exception to this would be if the owner has several studios booked for a family gathering, but, is personally staying only in one of the studios during the same timeframe.

 

[JimMIA]

these are just some of my thoughts.....

1- I should have kept my members only jacket

7- For the record I have two frogs and one plecotonamous in my fish tank.

8- this is all from a new member this year.

Thank you and good night

THIS is a new member with great promise!

 

[JimMIA]

When you come right down to it.......all a renter SHOULD be able to get is accomodations......they really shouldn't even be allowed to get ADR's, DDP, and whatever through MS at all.....even with the owner making the arrangements.

I agree. As a practical matter, the renter is WAY better off making ADRs, DDP, DME, and other like arrangements themselves. I wouldn't take that responsibility for a renter -- not because of my dues, but because I wouldn't take a chance of screwing up their vacation! That's their job.

 

[TCPluto]

You are right that far. You would have to show that he knew his DVC account had been shut down. To do that, you'd subpoena DVC's records and I'm sure you'd find some documentation of DVC notifying him.

Once you show he knew that, the law assumes he knew, or should have known, the victim was exposed. Failure to act in that situation would constitute specific intent. It's the same legal principle as pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger -- you may have only intended to scare them, but their untimely demise is a direct result of your action.

I'm talking about criminal fraud. Criminal fraud is a crime against the state, not the individual victim, and restitution is no defense. Often prosecutors will decline to prosecute a case if the victim has accepted restitution, but they certainly can prosecute under those circumstances. I've seen them do it many times.

I'm not saying the person set out to defraud anyone, but they certainly could be held criminally responsible.Now you're talking civil law, and I'm sure any attorney would argue forcefully that the victim was not even close to being 'made whole.'

The DVC records would not show he "knew", and showing that he "knew" would be required. That he should have known would not be enough to prosecute.

In over 25 years, in over 20 venues, I have never seen criminal prosecution where restitution was made. While a successful prosecution could be had, it has never been pursued once restitution was made, typically nolle pros by the prosecutor's office.

For the successful prosecution, you would have to show that at some point in the transaction, he intended to defraud. The present case fell short and he could not be held criminally responsible....

 

[JimMIA]

The DVC records would not show he "knew", and showing that he "knew" would be required. That he should have known would not be enough to prosecute.

What the records would show is that DVC notified him. I'm sure they would have done so via some sort of either signed-receipt mail or court process. Once you establish delivery was made, it would be pretty difficult for a jury to believe he didn't know what the big words meant.

If you could not establish knowledge that way, you'd have to take another route (patterns, course of conduct, other testimony, etc), but I've seen notification used successfully in many criminal cases. The classics are bank fraud cases where the account holder pleads stupid.

As a matter of fact, my favorite fraud cliche - and it's very accurate -- is, "Fraud looks a lot like stupid."

In over 25 years, in over 20 venues, I have never seen criminal prosecution where restitution was made. While a successful prosecution could be had, it has never been pursued once restitution was made, typically nolle pros by the prosecutor's office.

My experience is different. Restitution is a common ploy of con men. I've seen it used by groups such as gypsies, Travelers, and unscrupulous contractors after Hurricane Andrew. I've also seen it used by organized crime groups in bustouts, extortion cases, and assault cases. And I've seen all of the above successfully prosecuted criminally after making restitution. I agree that prosecutors don't usually prosecute after restitution, but they certainly can.

Remember, it's the State of Florida vs XXX, not John Doe vs XXX. The victim is the state. The person who got ripped off is just a witness.

For the successful prosecution, you would have to show that at some point in the transaction, he intended to defraud.

Oh, absolutely. Intent is always THE issue in every fraud case. They all say they didn't mean to do it!

The point of intent in this case would not have been at the inception of the rental transaction. I'm sure he had no such intent at the start.

Intent comes up at the point he learned his account had been shut down and chose not to do anything about it. Or where he told someone else about it, but still took no action. Or, where he tried to scrape the money together to refund, couldn't, and did nothing. There are many ways to establish intent.

The prosecuter would argue that -- if he meant the victim no harm -- all he had to do was pick up the phone, send an email, etc, and tell them there was a problem. He chose not to. At that point, he made a poor decision...but it was an intentional decision.

As I said, I've seen a lot of these scenarios -- especially with OC bustouts. It's always all a big mistake with them.

*****
I think I've led us WAY , and I apologize to the readers. If you'd like to continue the discussion via PM, I'd be happy to.

 

[Deb & Bill]

...
BTW Deb, how is your cuff rehab going? Hope you are pain free. My DH has to have surgery for the same thing and wants to time it so he can still enjoy Rockin' roller coaster, Space Mountain etc. or maybe he will have to wait until he gets home from WDW. Anyway...........hope you are doing well.
Tina

It's been 5.5 weeks since surgery, and I still can't sleep at night. Still in a sling, but it might be off on Mon after my appt. I've been doing lots, still not driving. I should be starting PT in August. They say it takes about 5-6 months to totally heal and be pain free. If he can take the pain he has now, plan it for after WDW (unless that's a long time away). If you are driving to WDW, do it after. Think about trying to get clothes on without lifting up your arm; nothing pulled over the head, got to have buttons or snaps.

We're going to DL in Sept for the 1/2 marathon (husband is running, I'm just watching), but I'll be doing Buzz, ferris wheel at Cal Adv, anything else I can do. By Thanksgiving at WDW, I should be much better.

 

[Barak's Disney]

Are you saying that you called DVC Member Services or WDW-DINE?

I called WDW-DINE.

 

[greenban]

these are just some of my thoughts.....

1- I should have kept my members only jacket

2-I only call to disney when I need to ,not to chit chat

3-as for saving money , I don't know . BUT long ago MS could have had 20 people working for them in the call center and you waited 30 minutes to have a person at ms pick up your call . They then hire 40 more people and calls get picked up in a couple of minutes. ( POSSIBLE senerio ) renters making calls requires 40 more people to maintain already set standard. Hey for all I know only 1 person rented out last year .

By limiting to Members only , one I think its the right thing and two maybe they wont have to hire 40 more people in the comming year and this helps keep dues down.

4-I always want a confirmation number, sorry but I don't trust us postal to always get me my mail.

5- doesn't breakage go toward the upkeep of the resort thereby keeping dues down.?

6-I do not see any problem utilizing any of the services MS offers members over the phone . Although I never even thought about calling MS for dining ressies I always call Disney Dining

7- For the record I have two frogs and one plecotonamous in my fish tank.

8- this is all from a new member this year.


Thank you and good night

You Sir/Madam are a class act.

Anyone who likes the DVC, Disney, Members Only Gear, and FROGS!

is alright in my book. (BTW, you should now be very, very afraid!)

Welcome and Felicitations!

-Tony

BTW & FWIW: I still have my Members Only Jacket, I just can' even begin to fit into it, sigh!

 

[greenban]

I'm a renter, but was able to verify the existance of my reservation today through Disney. This happened to me rather by accident - I was planning to call on day 180 for a reservation at CRT, but called a day early to check out the phone tree - the CM informed me that I was elgible to book today b/c of the +10 rule (which says to me that she was able to look up my DVC reservation - unless she just took my word for it that I was staying on site?)

Actually, she just took your word, your ressie info isn't available until about 10 days before travel at the Resort, DME or for dining.

-Tony

 

[patsal]

Just abck and this is good news to me! I have to say there were a significant number of renters at OKW--I spoke with a lot of people and many mentioned that they were just renting. I was really concerned that MS would add more staff to deal withthe high number of calls and raise our dues--something I do not want to pay for.

 

[rinkwide]

...I was really concerned that MS would add more staff to deal with the high number of calls and raise our dues--something I do not want to pay for.

Welcome to the Member's Only club - wear your jacket with pride.

 

[jdg345]

This rule really doesn't bother me. However, those that think this will somehow be a big savings for members, or will magically reduce calls/dues, are probably mistaken. The renter call is just replaced by a member call.

This probably has more to do with account privacy and access than anything else.

I dunno ... I think that due to the trust issues mentioned, it would be quite plausible for a renter to call 2, 3, 4, or more times prior to their checkin just to confirm ... how often do members do that?

 

[Tink10]

I dunno ... I think that due to the trust issues mentioned, it would be quite plausible for a renter to call 2, 3, 4, or more times prior to their checkin just to confirm ... how often do members do that?

Personally, I really can see members calling even remotely that much......

That said, I've seen a common mentality around the Dis boards that if you aren't getting the info you want from a CRO CM or Dining CM, then people will just hang up & call right back to get a different CM. I can't help but wonder if that type of behavior has carried over to DVC MS.

 

[dianeschlicht]

I agree. As a practical matter, the renter is WAY better off making ADRs, DDP, DME, and other like arrangements themselves. I wouldn't take that responsibility for a renter -- not because of my dues, but because I wouldn't take a chance of screwing up their vacation! That's their job.

Exactly! Heck, I don't even do my own ADRs through MS. I call Disney Dining for that.

 

[browniemtb]

I guess after all these pages everything has been said. But here is my 2 cents.....I do think this is a good thing. Members should have their own number to call to book trips and not get a 10 minute wait. This more than likely will clear up some incoming calls for MS. Also booking ME and DDP would be fairly easy wouldn't it? Just give MS the info. Also this, hopefully, could be a tipping point in the rental prices, $12 to $15 per point....
Brownie

 

[jdg345]

Personally, I really can see members calling even remotely that much......

That said, I've seen a common mentality around the Dis boards that if you aren't getting the info you want from a CRO CM or Dining CM, then people will just hang up & call right back to get a different CM. I can't help but wonder if that type of behavior has carried over to DVC MS.

I can't see members caling that much either ... renters though ... maybe ...

 

[greenban]

Personally, I really can see members calling even remotely that much......

That said, I've seen a common mentality around the Dis boards that if you aren't getting the info you want from a CRO CM or Dining CM, then people will just hang up & call right back to get a different CM. I can't help but wonder if that type of behavior has carried over to DVC MS.

Well in all fairness it is faster than waiting on hold for 15 minutes while a new MS-Advisor gets the answer to your question (often wrong, BTW from direct personal experience).

I have probably 3 times, called back after getting an answer I knew was wrong from a newer MS-Advisor, and gotten an experienced advisor who could complete the request in a matter of seconds, without a superviosr and hold.

Yes 2 calls of about 1 minute each, versus 1 call of 15 minutes, with the wrong info. I will continue to do that as necessary (very rarely, about 1 a year). I'm not getting someone to bend the rules, I'm getting an MS-Advisor who knows what they are doing!

-Tony

 

[Tink10]

Well in all fairness it is faster than waiting on hold for 15 minutes while a new MS-Advisor gets the answer to your question (often wrong, BTW from direct personal experience).

I have probably 3 times, called back after getting an answer I knew was wrong from a newer MS-Advisor, and gotten an experienced advisor who could complete the request in a matter of seconds, without a superviosr and hold.

Yes 2 calls of about 1 minute each, versus 1 call of 15 minutes, with the wrong info. I will continue to do that as necessary (very rarely, about 1 a year). I'm not getting someone to bend the rules, I'm getting an MS-Advisor who knows what they are doing!

-Tony

You're a member, so you're entitled to call MS as much as you want.....

It's the non-menbers & renters who I'd have a problem with.....

 

[kimberh]

Exactly! Heck, I don't even do my own ADRs through MS. I call Disney Dining for that.

I am a DVC owner now but when I rented and called the 1 407 W disney to book my dining reservations last Jan the Cm told me that I had a different number to call and it was MS. NOw that is Disney's fault. I emailed the person that I rented from and she told me to use my confirmation number. So that is what I did and MS was fine with it. I was not a owner at the time. Now who made that rule????

 

[bobbiwoz]

I am a DVC owner now but when I rented and called the 1 407 W disney to book my dining reservations last Jan the Cm told me that I had a different number to call and it was MS. NOw that is Disney's fault. I emailed the person that I rented from and she told me to use my confirmation number. So that is what I did and MS was fine with it. I was not a owner at the time. Now who made that rule????

I wonder what you were trying to book. The only time Disney Dining didn't work for me was when I was trying to do something related to a Grand Gathering. Usually I'm just asked where I'm staying.

Bobbi