Newest MS change and future of dvc Resales

[RobDoc]

Doc....I am not ignoring your questions, but I think I probably explained my point of view on the misc. thread where we have been discussing. Please let me know if you still need explanation on this.

Rinkwide...EXACTLY!!! I just WISH I could get my point across so succinctly!!! Will you be my interpreter from now on???!!!!



Beca

Better explain it again then, because it makes no sense to me and isn't supported with any facts- only opinions repeatedly made by yourself and others.

IMO, rinkwide's translation serves only to muddy the already swirling waters by adding more misinformation and opinion presented as fact.

 

[castleri]

What flexibility has been taken away? BCV owners have complained that they have been unable to make home resort reservations prior to 7 months. The ONLY way that could happen is if other BCV owners have made reservations. SSR owners (and owners from any other resort) have no ability to make reservations at BCV until 7 months- if there is already no availabilty at that time, it is ONLY because other BCV owners have exercised their right to make those reservations. If it has happened because other BCV owners have benefitted by transferring points into ther account, then this move only serves to limit that ability. Are you complaining that commercial renters (if DVC actually follows thru with their threat) shouldn't lose this ability?

I don't unerstand the concept that DVC is doing anything that benfits DVC and harms members. I see it as only affecting those who are commercial renters and even then ONLY if DVC actually follows up and takes action against those members.

Please explain how DVC benefits to the detriment of members since DVC has no rental business of it's own?

I think you have got it exactly right - the whole points not retaining their original use year, resort ID when transferred glitch is the only way I can see SSR or any other resort VB, HH ie making a difference before the 7 month point. BCV is popular and many bought because that is where they want to stay and are able to make reservations more that the 7 months in advance. When we want to use ours for a stay there we try for the 11 month window on the day it opens - so all other BCV owners are competing with me at that point not all the SSR owners (I am one of those too). I always thought the points retained their home resort, until I read they didn't on these boards, so never even tried to transfer any. Competing with the commercial renter who may have most of his points at OKW and transferred them into his small BCV contract is another whole ballgame and I am glad it will limit that to just one transfer. I think that more owners are making reservations at the smaller resorts earlier because of the fear of not getting what they want if they wait. I know I do- I booked my September OKW trip at 11 months (now everyone knows I could have waited until much closer to the time but I wanted it in place) I messed up on the Christmas one and am now on waitlists for NYE for a 2 BR at any resort.. Got the 24-29 and then decided later that maybe we could stay off site a couple of days and go home the first instead of the 29th. Just don't know what to do once SWA starts booking for that time frame since we have nothing for the 29-30 at this point.
When we purchased in 1997 our guide was very quick to point out that DVC might not be a good idea for anyone who could not plan at least 7 months in advance. She stressed that it was not geared for people who want last minute reservations or would not be happy if they could not get the resort they wanted --actually there were only two at the time. She did say that we could book BWV at 7 months IF there was availability. Sometimes I think people hear what they want to hear and not what was said. "You can book other resorts at 7 months" may be taken as a guarantee by some and just a statement about the 11/7 month windows by others. Only the person making the statement knows what he/she meant or tried to imply. We have had luck getting a reservation on short notice - ie the day it was needed just prior to hurricane Jeanne and two days before a trip adding on so depending on the circumstances you get very lucky or unlucky. Never did get lucky when they had the lottery for holiday time the first couple of years we joined and am glad they did away with it but also realize that if they choose to do it again it will really limit commercial renting of that time frame.
The last few days have really made for some interesting posts and threads.
Guess I had better get back to my other life before the dust bunnies start hopping around.

 

[RobDoc]

Quick question, don't transferred points retain their home resort? So, if someone had two differnt contracts, one at OKW and one at VWL, they couldn't transfer their OKW points to the VWL account and use them all for the booking advantage. Correct? Or, where people transferring BCV points from another member into their SSR account so they could book at 11 months?

Just curious.

That's exactly how it is stated in our documents and how it is supposed to work, but the reality is that DVC is either unable or unwilling to actually track the transferred points and they end up just being lumped in with other points in the contract where the now reside. If you owned a 50 point contract at BCV and found a VB owner who would transfer 500 VB points into your account- you'd now have 550 BCV points to be used 11 months ahead to make reservations. Until this week, if you found 20 VB members willing to transfer points into your BCV account you could amass as many points as you could find and they magically turned into BCV points ... AND they assumed your Use Year even if they would normally have expired a week later.

All that has changed this week is that the BCV member with the 50 point contract can only have one transfer of those VB points - so it needs to be a BIG one if he plans to commercially rent those points. The VB points will still become BCV points and will still assume the new Use Year. Hopefully, DVC will find the ability or the energy to correct that issue soon too.

 

[tomandrobin]

Second, don't be too sure, smug and self-confident that the 11 month rule will always be there, it can be changed at the will of the DVC, no prior notice or voting required. Just as they can sell any resort at anytime.

What i should have said is "not changing at this time". But in the future, who knows.

What you missed, in my opinion, is that Beca is stating she believes something else (other than rental control) is behind this, I happen to agree, but freely admit I haven't got a clue as to what it is.

That may be true, there could be something else behind all this. Somehow I am going to guess its all tied to sales, or shoul I say more sales. Why buy DVC when you can rent DVC points? But I don't know why she always has to blame it on SSR. DVC has only one goal and that is to make money for Disney and its shareholders.

I don't see the resorts as being unbalanced. If you plan and use your membership as laid out in your ownership manual....it'll be all good. Home resort booking at 11 to 7 months is still king. Until DVC changes that (or if) you should not have any problems. Peak weeks will always be a problem, but that is home resort issues with other home resort members.


For Narnia!

 

[waltfan1957]

If there is no availability at 7 months, the ONLY group responsible are the owners at that resort as they are the ONLY ones with the ability to reserve at that resort prior to thata time. :

seems no matter how many times you read this on disboards some people just dont get it, the lets just blame SSR group are either incredibly stupid or unable to read

 

[Anjelica]

That's exactly how it is stated in our documents and how it is supposed to work, but the reality is that DVC is either unable or unwilling to actually track the transferred points and they end up just being lumped in with other points in the contract where the now reside. If you owned a 50 point contract at BCV and found a VB owner who would transfer 500 VB points into your account- you'd now have 550 BCV points to be used 11 months ahead to make reservations. Until this week, if you found 20 VB members willing to transfer points into your BCV account you could amass as many points as you could find and they magically turned into BCV points ... AND they assumed your Use Year even if they would normally have expired a week later.

All that has changed this week is that the BCV member with the 50 point contract can only have one transfer of those VB points - so it needs to be a BIG one if he plans to commercially rent those points. The VB points will still become BCV points and will still assume the new Use Year. Hopefully, DVC will find the ability or the energy to correct that issue soon too.

I thought they would have enforced the whole transferring points designated for one resort to another so you would have enough points to book at 11 months.....that changes alot from my perspective. This sounds like an issue that "could" cause problems for those wanting to book at the 11 month window at a resort they do have enough points for and really needs to be fixed IMHO.

It does upset me when organizations pick and choose which rules to enforce and which to relax on a regular basis. It just sends mixed messages to many of the folks.

 

[Rozzie]

I REALLY hope I am wrong, and that the next 4 resorts are 200 units each, and are the Contemp, the Poly, AKL and Yacht Club Villas!!



Beca

Beca, I guess we see this from 2 different angles. I have all my fingers and toes crossed that they will build EP. Mr. Rozzie and I prefer the condo away from the parks style. I would be very happy with AKL, as it is not near a park.

If I had to guess though, I think it is AKL. There is something fishy going on over there, a big rehab on the books. Spoke with the CL staff about our Jan ressie and the deluxe rooms will be "unavailable". He said he guessed they are being rehabbed or "the other thing". Granted it may just be a normal rehab, but it does give my dream of AKL some juice to live on.

I guess I say all of this, is there is a # of us that would be happy with EP. I hope there isn't a dump of resale's, that would be really sad to see. A rush to sell, when none of us really know's where DVC is headed. For better or worse, I'm hooked LOL!

 

[icydog]

I think this is one of the people DVC needs to target. Obviously this person could be considered a commercial renter since he/she/it has a very nice website that is obviously designed to make renting points a at least part time job. Check out the website at http://getawaymagic.com/default.aspx

and draw your own conclusions.

These people, Win and Linda, are one of the big time renters on eBay -- user name boardwalkmagic (1521 feedback) Look at their feedback, thousands of folks who rent points for inexpensive DVC vacations. I wish Disney had addressed them, and the other poachers like them, in a private letter, rather than the slap on the wrist approach they took addressing all of us in a public newsletter. I think the no warning, surprise, we're no longer nice guys, approach was a little freightening to someone like me, who rents out my points, on a much, much smaller scale.

When I saw their little blurb I cancelled a new contract I had pending with the Timeshare Store and kind of freaked out.

In the blurb in the newsletter they mentioned buying into DVC to make a profit on reselling those contracts. Is this a problem as well. I would think the small profit that you can make would be off set by the pain in the "--" it is to sell any Disney property. It took me almost 5 months to close my 190 point BWV last year. Disney did everything it could to drag their feet. I was so lucky my buyer hung in with me. I know if it were me I would have bailed...Thanks JandDMom for being so patient.

Marylyn DVC'92

 

[missymouse]

These people, Win and Linda, are one of the big time renters on eBay -- user name boardwalkmagic (1521 feedback) Look at their feedback, thousands of folks who rent points for inexpensive DVC vacations. I wish Disney had addressed them, and the other poachers like them, in a private letter, rather than the slap on the wrist approach they took addressing all of us in a public newsletter. I think the no warning, surprise, we're no longer nice guys, approach was a little freightening to someone like me, who rents out my points, on a much, much smaller scale.

When I saw their little blurb I cancelled a new contract I had pending with the Timeshare Store and kind of freaked out.

In the blurb in the newsletter they mentioned buying into DVC to make a profit on reselling those contracts. Is this a problem as well. I would think the small profit that you can make would be off set by the pain in the "--" it is to sell any Disney property. It took me almost 5 months to close my 190 point BWV last year. Disney did everything it could to drag their feet. I was so lucky my buyer hung in with me. I know if it were me I would have bailed...Thanks JandDMom for being so patient.

Marylyn DVC'92

According to E-bay they have been using the Boardwalk Magic ID since Sept. 2005. When you look at their feedback it appears they started with the DVC around Jan. of 2005, before that it looks like they were doing Computer or CD disc stuff. Under the name of West River Systems

 

[Mickey Fliers]

If I had known I could buy a small contract at VWL and just have my large amount of SSR points transferred in and then be able to utilize the 11 month booking advantage at VWL, I would have bought the add-on.

Silly me, I thought transferred points retained their home resort so that there wouldn't be a complete imbalance of points at a particular resort .

I figured there wasn't any reason to buy a 50 pt. contract at one of the smaller resorts if I could only use them in a bank/borrow situation. Had I only known that points could be "magically" transferred into points at any resort you wanted.....

 

[Anjelica]

If I had known I could buy a small contract at VWL and just have my large amount of SSR points transferred in and then be able to utilize the 11 month booking advantage at VWL, I would have bought the add-on.

Silly me, I thought transferred points retained their home resort so that there wouldn't be a complete imbalance of points at a particular resort .

I figured there wasn't any reason to buy a 50 pt. contract at one of the smaller resorts if I could only use them in a bank/borrow situation. Had I only known that points could be "magically" transferred into points at any resort you wanted.....

Exactly my thought........

 

[Beca]

OKW - 531 rooms
BCV - 208 rooms
VWL - 136 rooms
BWV - 383 rooms
SSR - 828 rooms
HH - ?
VB - ?


Beca....I still don't understand your point of view. First OKW was first and is a large resort. Second BWV is not small, more of a solid medium (383 villas). Third, I don't see how this effects the VB and HH owners.

11 month window, is still going to be 11 month....not changing. There is a finite number of owners and rooms at BCV or any of the resorts for that manner. I think that if it takes pressure off of making reservations by cutting down on the renters, that would make most owners of DVC happier. The last thing I want is to have room taken up by non-owners, making the use of DVC difficult for me to use.

One thing that I notice in your posts, over and over again, is that you reference BCV like it was the first resort. All small and cute, then this monster SSR comes along and ruined the whole DVC thing. Maybe after OKW was built, the mistake was squeezing BCV in on the scrap parcel of land next to the Yacht Club. Maybe the should have just called it BWV phase 2. Then problem would have been solved, except for poor WLV out there all by it self.

Stop acting like chicken little, the sky is not falling. Relax and see where everthing fall into place. For some reason, I feel that whatever DVC does in the future, wether its a rule change or new resort, you will still see a threat to BCV.

Sorry if you feel I am "atacking" your resort. I am not. I am actually upset that DVC has not kept the system balanced, as is taking what I see as unnecessary steps to balance it.

What keeps getting ignored by people on these boards who do not agree, is that DVC could've taken one of many other steps to remedy this situation, other than limiting EVERYONE's transfers, thus closing some flexibility in the system.

There have been a LOT more changes at DVC in the last few days than those that have been discussed here. I know about some of them, but cannot post without putting a source in jeopardy. Suffice it to say, commercial renters have been "taken care of"...this transfer step is completely unnecessary. I actually keep watching these boards to see who else knows what I know....hoping someone else will post it. I know some others on this board have got to know it as well.

As far as the "balance", there are right at 1400 condo-style rooms in DVC, compared to about 700 deluxe-resort ones. I know that if DVC adds another condo-style resort to the complex, the price of the hotel-style points will continue to go up. And, if people are right that AKV is next, the "balance" will come back a bit, and the value of the hotel style resorts will drop. I am TOTALLY okay with that because the value would be dropping due to a positive change. But, the value of my resort dropping because DVC limits flexibility does not make me happy.

I'm sorry if it seems I am "attacking" your resort. I really am not. I don't have anything against SSR, and I am glad you love it. But, because we own at two very different resorts, your DVC and my DVC are different realities. That is going to give us very different opinions.

I respect yours, and ask that you respect mine.



Beca

 

[Mickey Fliers]

Sorry if you feel I am "atacking" your resort. I am not. I am actually upset that DVC has not kept the system balanced, as is taking what I see as unnecessary steps to balance it.

What keeps getting ignored by people on these boards who do not agree, is that DVC could've taken one of many other steps to remedy this situation, other than limiting EVERYONE's transfers, thus closing some flexibility in the system.

There have been a LOT more changes at DVC in the last few days than those that have been discussed here. I know about some of them, but cannot post without putting a source in jeopardy. Suffice it to say, commercial renters have been "taken care of"...this transfer step is completely unnecessary. I actually keep watching these boards to see who else knows what I know....hoping someone else will post it. I know some others on this board have got to know it as well.

As far as the "balance", there are right at 1400 condo-style rooms in DVC, compared to about 700 deluxe-resort ones. I know that if DVC adds another condo-style resort to the complex, the price of the hotel-style points will continue to go up. And, if people are right that AKV is next, the "balance" will come back a bit, and the value of the hotel style resorts will drop. I am TOTALLY okay with that because the value would be dropping due to a positive change. But, the value of my resort dropping because DVC limits flexibility does not make me happy.

I'm sorry if it seems I am "attacking" your resort. I really am not. I don't have anything against SSR, and I am glad you love it. But, because we own at two very different resorts, your DVC and my DVC are different realities. That is going to give us very different opinions.

I respect yours, and ask that you respect mine.



Beca

See, and as I see it, if MS still allows people to transfer points and let them take on a different home resort, then there will never be a balance. A lot of people will buy a small add-on to the next DVC and use all their BCV or whatever points to book the new resort at 11 months.

If DVC is going to limit flexibility by enforcing the transfer policy, the next logical step has to be being able to distinguish home resort on transferred points.

Beca, doesn't it bother you, especially as a BCV owner, that anyone (with a small BCV contract) can turn points into BCV reservations at 11 months with a simple transfer?

For example: Joe Schmo has a 1000 pt. OKW contract and a 25 pt. BCV contract. At the beginning of his UY, he transfers all of his OKW pts. to his BCV account and makes a ton of reservations at 11 months. All this b/c MS has to make a manual notation that these are transferred points. As an owner, this situation peeves me more than anything!!

Again, there will never be a point balance until that situation is taken care of. Maybe that is the newer change that you alluded to....

I have to admit, now I am curious

 

[LisaS]

If I had known I could buy a small contract at VWL and just have my large amount of SSR points transferred in and then be able to utilize the 11 month booking advantage at VWL, I would have bought the add-on.

Silly me, I thought transferred points retained their home resort so that there wouldn't be a complete imbalance of points at a particular resort .

I figured there wasn't any reason to buy a 50 pt. contract at one of the smaller resorts if I could only use them in a bank/borrow situation. Had I only known that points could be "magically" transferred into points at any resort you wanted.....

If you were going to buy that 50 pt add on through Disney, then it would be a true add on (subcontract if you like) to your master contract and you cannot transfer points between an add on and a master contract. The points can be combined at the 7 month window to make reservations without transferring any points -- it functions as if it were one big contract containing all the points of both contracts.

So to do what you are talking about, a member has to purchase that small second contract as another master contract. If buying from Disney, you would have to purchase a minimum of 150 points so you would have to purchase it on the resale market, allowing you to purchase as few as 25 points.

I'm not suggesting you do that, but just wanted to clarify since the recent announcements have caused confusion among some members who have true add on contracts and are concerned, unnecessarily, about transferring points between the add on and the master.

 

[Beca]

See, and as I see it, if MS still allows people to transfer points and let them take on a different home resort, then there will never be a balance. A lot of people will buy a small add-on to the next DVC and use all their BCV or whatever points to book the new resort at 11 months.

If DVC is going to limit flexibility by enforcing the transfer policy, the next logical step has to be being able to distinguish home resort on transferred points.

Beca, doesn't it bother you, especially as a BCV owner, that anyone (with a small BCV contract) can turn points into BCV reservations at 11 months with a simple transfer?

For example: Joe Schmo has a 1000 pt. OKW contract and a 25 pt. BCV contract. At the beginning of his UY, he transfers all of his OKW pts. to his BCV account and makes a ton of reservations at 11 months. All this b/c MS has to make a manual notation that these are transferred points. As an owner, this situation peeves me more than anything!!

Again, there will never be a point balance until that situation is taken care of. Maybe that is the newer change that you alluded to....

I have to admit, now I am curious

Yes, it does bother me. And, IMHO that would be a MUCH more positive way to add flexibility to the system than limiting the number of transfers. I read on another board where someone else suggested limiting the number of points that you can transfer each year, instead of the number of transfers. To be fair to everyone who invested $$$$ into DVC, maybe the number of points could be limited to the number of points you own. (i.e. if you own a 50 pt contract, you are limited to transferring in or out 50 points, if you own a 500 pt contract, you are limited to transferring 500 pts).

And, as much as I would like to see that happen....I don't know anything about that happening. It is not what I was referring to. I'm sorry I cannot tell...if and when I ever get the "green light" to do so, I promise I will come post.



Beca

 

[Deb & Bill]

Just how much transferring does anyone really need to do? I keep seeing the "I may need 5-10 points in the future to make a reservation". I know when people started getting concerned about making reservations for non-members and being responsible for their messes/damage/etc, lots of members said they would only transfer to another member and not mess with the non-members.

We have never transferred any points to anyone. We did rent a reservation from a member who had points in reservation status and couldn't use them before they expired. We offered to buy them at the price they were selling them and during the course of the sale, they even lowered the price to us since we took nearly all the points they had to use for a stay at the CR. We did them a favor and they did us a favor.

So how much transferring do most people who are not trying to morph points do anyway?

 

[Mike]

Just how much transferring does anyone really need to do? I keep seeing the "I may need 5-10 points in the future to make a reservation". I know when people started getting concerned about making reservations for non-members and being responsible for their messes/damage/etc, lots of members said they would only transfer to another member and not mess with the non-members.

We have never transferred any points to anyone. We did rent a reservation from a member who had points in reservation status and couldn't use them before they expired. We offered to buy them at the price they were selling them and during the course of the sale, they even lowered the price to us since we took nearly all the points they had to use for a stay at the CR. We did them a favor and they did us a favor.

So how much transferring do most people who are not trying to morph points do anyway?

In my case, over the past year I had 933 points transferred into my account from 5 people. Some of the points were for a co-worker's vacation (BCV 2BR in April) and the rest was for a our 2 week vacation that we just concluded with a total of 18 people. This is something that I will not do every year, but it is nice to have that flexibility. Next year, in addition to our annual 2 weeks in July, we are planning a 1 week trip in early December with my wife's family (15 people total), so I will again need to transfer points - and will hopefully be able to do so.

We own 220 points and that is perfect for us. I have no interest in an add-on at the present time. And these big family trips will not be frequent events. So in a "typical" year, I will not be adversely affected by the "change in enforcement". But I will be affected for the occassional family trip as I now must find one person that has the number of points that I need and who hasn't already used their one transfer for the year.

 

[tomandrobin]

Sorry if you feel I am "atacking" your resort. I am not. I am actually upset that DVC has not kept the system balanced, as is taking what I see as unnecessary steps to balance it.

Sorry Beca, its not that I feel you do, I can see and read that you do. You just do it in a nicer way then B3.

What keeps getting ignored by people on these boards who do not agree, is that DVC could've taken one of many other steps to remedy this situation, other than limiting EVERYONE's transfers, thus closing some flexibility in the system.

Ok, what do you suggest they do about point transfers?

There have been a LOT more changes at DVC in the last few days than those that have been discussed here. I know about some of them, but cannot post without putting a source in jeopardy. Suffice it to say, commercial renters have been "taken care of"...this transfer step is completely unnecessary. I actually keep watching these boards to see who else knows what I know....hoping someone else will post it. I know some others on this board have got to know it as well.

I have no problems with DVC stopping the commercial renters. They shouldn't be here at mine or your resort....period! And if you have addition information, share it. As we say back home...."Put up or shut up!".

As far as the "balance", there are right at 1400 condo-style rooms in DVC, compared to about 700 deluxe-resort ones. I know that if DVC adds another condo-style resort to the complex, the price of the hotel-style points will continue to go up. And, if people are right that AKV is next, the "balance" will come back a bit, and the value of the hotel style resorts will drop. I am TOTALLY okay with that because the value would be dropping due to a positive change. But, the value of my resort dropping because DVC limits flexibility does not make me happy.

Now here is a perfect example of your "nice" hate, OKW and SSR are condos, the rest are Deluxe-Resorts. Honey, they are all Deluxe Resorts. Maybe you should mosey on down to a Motel 8 to get back in touch with reality of what is and is not deluxe accomadations.

I think you are guessing that the value of BCV or any other resort will drop in value because of the rules being enforced. Has the price of any resorts ever dropped? I don't think so.

I'm sorry if it seems I am "attacking" your resort. I really am not. I don't have anything against SSR, and I am glad you love it. But, because we own at two very different resorts, your DVC and my DVC are different realities. That is going to give us very different opinions.

Again, here is the "nice" hate thing...at least B3 put it out there. You hide behind apologies and excuses to make it softer, kinder, gentler. I got news for you, that you don't like to hear. After seven months, your DVC is my DVC, and vica versa.

I respect yours, and ask that you respect mine.

The reality here is that you don't respect "The Condos" as you put it. (see above if not sure) You lump OKW and SSR as some sort of lesser thing. Heck, you don't even mention HH or VB like they don't exist. And then you ask for respect. You have to give it, to get it. Since I have joined the DISboard in March, I have encounter many other SSR bashing posts from you. I have always respected BCV and all the other DVC resorts. There are things about all the resorts that I don't like, but I try to keep those opions to my self. Maybe you should try that too. Like my Grandfather says, "If you can't say something nice..........you know the rest.

 

[CarolA]

Removed since it didn't come across as intended.

(We need a chicken little smilie)

 

[kimberh]

WOW!!!! WAS this necessary? I mean I have to ask? I am not a BC owner or SSR owner. I happen to love two others. I think we need to unite and get a grip!!!


Just my 2 cents.