Newest MS change and future of dvc Resales

[Plutofan]

It is per calendar use year, per use year (or member number). So, yes...your plan would work.

VERY creative, BTW!!! See....we're learning to work the new "system" already!!!

Beca

So if we take it one step farther I am still in my 2005 use year on my Deember contract so I can transfer in points into that contract bank 50% depending on my contract size and not jeopardize my ability to get a 2006 point transfer.

 

[RobDoc]

So if we take it one step farther I am still in my 2005 use year on my Deember contract so I can transfer in points into that contract bank 50% depending on my contract size and not jeopardize my ability to get a 2006 point transfer.

Reportedly, MS has allowed members to bank transferred points outside of normal banking windows, so you may be able to bank all of the transferred points into your 2006 Use Year and then have more transferred into your 2006 Use Year after December 1 (you would not be able to transfer again until the next use Year has begun).

However ... per the language in the early POS documents, tranfserred points could not originally be banked - so it's possible that MS could suspend that practice too. Here is a post with the exact statement from the POS regarding Banking, Borrowing and Transferred Points.

 

[kimberh]

I called MS today and asked,"if I excepted a transfer into My Oct 05 uy could I still bank them", and He said, "yes". Now If this changes too, I am really going to be upset. My contracts were sold to me with Transferring being a big part of the DVC flexibility.

 

[bigsmooth]

Banking and borrowing are not transfers. Transfers are points going from one account of contract to another.

For instance, let us say you have 100 points at VWL with a June use year, and 100 points at BCV with a December use year. You would have two member numbers (because of the different use years). You could "transfer" points between those contracts once per year and in one direction. Or transfers can be "member to member."

Banking and borrowing within the same account is not affected.

I had asked this question on another thread, but then read this one and saw Chuck's reply that got me thinking about this again. If I currently own points at SSR with a June use year, and I want to stay at BWV every now and then, can I buy a small contract at BWV (by getting on the wait list or through resale), and then when I need to, transfer my points from my SSR contract with a June use year to a new BWV contract with a separate use year, and then have the transferred points to use within the 11 month window at BWV?

I ask, because I'd like to add on to another resort and then mix up the stays (perhaps once every 2-3 years). Sure, there is the 7 month window. But our favorite time to travel is Oct (kids school actually takes some time off in Oct), and BWV and BCV I could see always being difficult in Oct at the 7 month window.

To be honest, I have not pulled out my contract yet to see exactly how this works.

 

[Caskbill]

I had asked this question on another thread, but then read this one and saw Chuck's reply that got me thinking about this again. If I currently own points at SSR with a June use year, and I want to stay at BWV every now and then, can I buy a small contract at BWV (by getting on the wait list or through resale), and then when I need to, transfer my points from my SSR contract with a June use year to a new BWV contract with a separate use year, and then have the transferred points to use within the 11 month window at BWV?

I ask, because I'd like to add on to another resort and then mix up the stays (perhaps once every 2-3 years). Sure, there is the 7 month window. But our favorite time to travel is Oct (kids school actually takes some time off in Oct), and BWV and BCV I could see always being difficult in Oct at the 7 month window.

To be honest, I have not pulled out my contract yet to see exactly how this works.

Transferred points are to maintain their original resort and use year. However, since the current computer systems cannot set up temporary 'sub accounts' for transferred points, they are actually put into one of your existing accounts.

So if you transfer your SSR points into your BWV contract, in the computer they become BWV points, but they will be marked as being SSR points. MS marks them manually by putting a notation in your account, something along the lines that x-number of your BWV points are actually transferred SSR points. Per the regulations, they will not let you use the SSR points at BWV at 11-months.

Because the computer system would show the transferred points as being BWV, the computer itself would allow them to be used at 11-months. It's up to the CM to catch that they're really transferred SSR points. If the MS CM misses the manual notation that they're transferred SSR points, they may mistakenly put in the reservation at the 11-month point. But to actually plan on them making this mistake would not be good practice.

 

[Plutofan]

Everyone should look at the other thread started by WebDoctor. You can see that there are several differnt POS with different language. So it would appear for some of use based upon our POS that some of these changes are not an enforecement of our POS but a change without any notice.

 

[bigsmooth]

Transferred points are to maintain their original resort and use year. However, since the current computer systems cannot set up temporary 'sub accounts' for transferred points, they are actually put into one of your existing accounts.

So if you transfer your SSR points into your BWV contract, in the computer they become BWV points, but they will be marked as being SSR points. MS marks them manually by putting a notation in your account, something along the lines that x-number of your BWV points are actually transferred SSR points. Per the regulations, they will not let you use the SSR points at BWV at 11-months.

Because the computer system would show the transferred points as being BWV, the computer itself would allow them to be used at 11-months. It's up to the CM to catch that they're really transferred SSR points. If the MS CM misses the manual notation that they're transferred SSR points, they may mistakenly put in the reservation at the 11-month point. But to actually plan on them making this mistake would not be good practice.

Thanks Caskbill, answered my question exactly. I think I will still try to add on, but not plan on transfering between contracts. (assuming I can convince DW that adding on is a good thing, jury's out on that one)

 

[LisaS]

Thanks Caskbill, answered my question exactly. I think I will still try to add on, but not plan on transfering between contracts. (assuming I can convince DW that adding on is a good thing, jury's out on that one)

If you really do "add on" points at BWV (which is what I would recommend) then you will end up with a sub contract under your existing master contract. (The base contract numbers will be the same, the master will have an ".000" extension and the add-on will have a ".001" extension). The points you add on will be in the same Use Year as your Master contract at SSR. You can combine the points for reservations at 7 months or less as if they were all part of the same contract -- no transferring of points is done. Banking percentages are calculated on the total points across the main and add-on contract. So if you are in your 50% banking window, have banked no points yet and you have 50 points at BWV and 150 at SSR, you could bank all BWV points and up to 50 SSR points -- this can be very handy when managing points at different resorts.

As far as going to BWV every 2-3 years, you could bank and borrow all your BWV points to give yourself more BWV points to use at the 11-month window. For example, with a 50-pt add-on, you would have 150 to use every 3 years, or 100 to use every other year.

You can add on as few as 25 points (50 if financed), but they must be in the same Use Year.

Now if you want to risk playing the transfer game and try to "morph" SSR points in to BWV points, you would have to buy a second master contract at BWV, not an add-on. That requires a minimum purchase of 150 points and they can be in any Use Year. It would be a totally separate contract, as if it belonged to another member. You cannot just combine points at the 7 month window, you would have to transfer them from one contract to another. Or you could reserve some nights with points from one contract and the rest of the nights with points from the other contract. You do not get the banking advantage either -- banking percentages for each contract are totally separate. So at the 50% window, if you had banked no points, you could bank up to 50% of your SSR points and up to 50% of your BWV points.

In view of the recent change in transfer practices at MS, I would go with an add-on rather than a second master contract. As Caskbill already stated, trying to work the transfer loophole is a gamble and given the loss of flexibility with two master contracts vs. one master with an add-on, I think you give up a lot. Also you have to purchase at least 150 points for a new master contract vs. only 25 with an add-on.

Hope this helps!

 

[KennySC]

Policies protect personal use and enjoyment
In a continuing effort to maximize Members' personal enjoyment of their Membership, Disney Vacation Club would like to remind Members about several related policies outlined in the Public Offering Statement and other Member documents.

As a reminder, published policies limit the use of accommodations and recreational facilities solely to the personal use and enjoyment of Owners, their lessees, Guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit.

To maximize the availability of reservations for these permitted purposes, Disney Vacation Club closely monitors reservations and may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered.

Additionally, current policies limit Vacation Point-transfer transactions to one transfer per Member or Membership, either as transferee or transferor, during a given Use Year.

"We want to ensure that Members have the greatest opportunity to enjoy the magic of Membership," said Leigh Anne Nieman, Director of Business Standards and Regulatory Affairs for Disney Vacation Club. "With that in mind, we're committed to maximizing the availability of Ownership Interests and accommodations for Members' personal enjoyment, and we're committed to enforcing the policies that help us deliver on that commitment."

It has always been the policy of Disney Vacation Club that Membership is designed specifically to provide long-term personal enjoyment, and Members shouldn't purchase their Membership as an appreciable short-term investment.

 

[Beca]

Policies protect personal use and enjoyment
In a continuing effort to maximize Members' personal enjoyment of their Membership, Disney Vacation Club would like to remind Members about several related policies outlined in the Public Offering Statement and other Member documents.

As a reminder, published policies limit the use of accommodations and recreational facilities solely to the personal use and enjoyment of Owners, their lessees, Guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit.

To maximize the availability of reservations for these permitted purposes, Disney Vacation Club closely monitors reservations and may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered.

Additionally, current policies limit Vacation Point-transfer transactions to one transfer per Member or Membership, either as transferee or transferor, during a given Use Year.

"We want to ensure that Members have the greatest opportunity to enjoy the magic of Membership," said Leigh Anne Nieman, Director of Business Standards and Regulatory Affairs for Disney Vacation Club. "With that in mind, we're committed to maximizing the availability of Ownership Interests and accommodations for Members' personal enjoyment, and we're committed to enforcing the policies that help us deliver on that commitment."

It has always been the policy of Disney Vacation Club that Membership is designed specifically to provide long-term personal enjoyment, and Members shouldn't purchase their Membership as an appreciable short-term investment.

Hmmm....I think the most interesting thing to come out of this announcement is how close DVC obviously monitors these boards! Who knew we had such a straight line to management??!!!

But, here's what I don't get. If the POS outlines that renting is allowed, then how can they limit the rental for profit? I mean, seriously....what other kind of rental besides "for profit" is there? Even if you are just trying to use up points that would otherwise be wasted....isn't that, in essence "for profit".

Very confusing!!!

But, I think we have seen here that DVC thinks they can do whatever they want. Actually, I am willing to bet they can, unless Fl statutes prohibit it. But, I think DVC "powers that be" need to realize that, just as in life...all actions have an equal and opposite REACTION. They may be able to "crack down" on a member's flexibility, but in the end it may hurt their "glowing" reputation, and thus their value on the open market. We DVCer's may be a SMALL minority, but we are the most vocal minority, and therefore their cheapest and greatest advertising service outside of their signs in the park. I wonder how much it would hurt them if we began talking about how much better DVC used to be than it is, and if we began advising potential new members that the program is not what it used to be....maybe they should seriously re-consider their purchase.

And, finally...what makes me crazier than anything else is the thought that DVC might be limiting our flexibility to open up availability at all resorts so they can go ahead and build another 800+ condo-style complex. Something that I think the majority of the current membership would not like to see happen. Personally, I am REALLY scared about what the next DVC announcement will be. If it is EP, I would definitely have to consider selling more of my BCV points. This Vacation Club would certainly be going in a direction where I am not sure I would want to belong.



Beca

 

[Mai Ku Tiki]

And, finally...what makes me crazier than anything else is the thought that DVC might be limiting our flexibility to open up availability at all resorts so they can go ahead and build another 800+ condo-style complex. Something that I think the majority of the current membership would not like to see happen. Personally, I am REALLY scared about what the next DVC announcement will be. If it is EP, I would definitely have to consider selling more of my BCV points. This Vacation Club would certainly be going in a direction where I am not sure I would want to belong.



Beca

Aloha Beca!
Would you mind sharing exactly what you mean about EP or a large condo/resort being such a negative to you..This whole timeshare thing is so confusing to me...I know..."BUYER BEWARE"...but there is just soooo much to stay informed about!

Thanks!
~rose~

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

You know it could be they are tidying up before announcing a really hot DVC venue. For example if CRV comes along and existing members dash out and buy add-ons...failing to fix the morphing problem would yield consistent full capacity at the Contemporary...and the possibility of the owners being regularly closed out.

I think they would need to do a in-demand resort before doing another mega-resort. If they dont I think availability will definitely become very limited at the smaller resorts as their owners make reservations before the 7 month deadline on speculation because they wont be able to wait until they are certain.

 

[Beca]

Aloha Beca!
Would you mind sharing exactly what you mean about EP or a large condo/resort being such a negative to you..This whole timeshare thing is so confusing to me...I know..."BUYER BEWARE"...but there is just soooo much to stay informed about!

Thanks!
~rose~

What I am saying is this (just FYI...this is kind of a "hot" topic on the dis...so let me start by saying....I AM NOT TRYING TO START TROUBLE ABOUT SSR OR BASH IT IN ANY WAY....okay, I feel better). There have been a lot of people posting on the dis that they have either been told by guides, or heard guides say to others while on an SSR tour, "Oh, you can buy here....but, you can stay anywher" (And, yes I DO know...others here did not hear this at all...but, everyone has different experiences).

What I have heard about why DVC made these changes is that they are receiving numerous complaints from SSR owners who are having a difficult time getting into other resorts. This is due primarily to the size of SSR (it is as big as BWV, BCV, and VWL combined). So, to open up availability, DVC has decided to "crack down" on those who rent "for profit". There are MANY ways DVC could have chosen to do this, including putting in regs that say "If someone transfers points into their account, the owner of the membership must be listed on the reservation made using those points (either in that room, or another room on that property), and must be present at the time of check-in", or some other method. But instead, DVC chose to limit the flexibility of ALL of us to ensure availability within the 7 month window, specifically in response to those who just purchased at their 800 unit location.
This is in spite of the fact that all other comments I have heard from DVC in the past is that they really didn't mind renters....it was GREAT advertising, and often people would love DVC so much that they would take the tour and purchase their own memberships on that visit.

So, I have to ask myself, "Why...all of a sudden, does DVC finally start caring?"

I think the answer could be one of three reasons. Either they are more concerned about SSR people getting into other resorts at 7 months than they are concerned about EVERYONE'S flexibility; or, renting is becoming SOO huge that it is starting to affect their ability to fill rooms thru CRO; or, they have planned another condo-style 800 room complex not next to a park, and they need to ensure that they can keep availability at the 7 month window open so word doesn't get out on this board and others that you really don't have much of a chance to stay other than your home resort. Or....a combination of all 3.

I don't have any more "inside information" than anyone else on where the next resort will be....I am just speculating, and I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be wrong!!! But, I am more afraid than ever that DVC is limiting everyone's flexibility so they can "make room in the system" for those who purchase at another "mega resort" to be able to stay at BWV/BCV/VWL. I am really afraid that, if this is true, the next step we will see is to shorten the "home resort window" from a 11/7 to and 11/9 one. But, seriously...think about it. Any current resort that DVC is selling with 12 extra years begins to look much better than a resale if 1) availability at the 7 month mark is no problem, and 2) there is not much time or reason to worry about a "home resort advantage". As flexibility leaves the system, buying directly from DVC begins to look better and better. If that happens, resales will begin to sit on the open market, and then resale supplies will build up, and the price for resales will no longer be set by demand, but rather by DVC's ROFR process, and DVC prices will be eventually begin to drop, rather than continuing to rise.

I hope these ramblings make sense. If not, and you want to talk further, email me. I would be happy to TRY to explain this better.



Beca

 

[RobDoc]

... So, I have to ask myself, "Why...all of a sudden, does DVC finally start caring?"

I think the answer could be one of three reasons. Either they are more concerned about SSR people getting into other resorts at 7 months than they are concerned about EVERYONE'S flexibility; or, renting is becoming SOO huge that it is starting to affect their ability to fill rooms thru CRO; or, they have planned another condo-style 800 room complex not next to a park, and they need to ensure that they can keep availability at the 7 month window open so word doesn't get out on this board and others that you really don't have much of a chance to stay other than your home resort. Or....a combination of all 3.
...

I don't believe it has anything to do with SSR owners at 7 months. As for the guides using that as a sales tool- it is one of the features of the DVC program and IMO they would be remiss NOT to use that fact in the presentations.

I think the concern is coming more from owners at BCV/VWL/BWV who have started to find difficulty making reservations at their home resorts during popular times MORE THAN 7 months in advance (thus created by other owners at thos resorts) and DVC's assessment of the situation is that renting and transferring has played a role in that issue. In this case, DVC's inability or unwillingness to close the "transfer loophole" that morphs VB, SSR, HH and OKW points into BCV or VWL points merely by transferring large numbers of points into a 50 point BCV or VWL contract has effectively "oversold" those resorts by creating more points than should actually be in the inventory. When this is coupled by the time extension gained when the transferred points gain a new Use Year the situation is aggravated even more.

The original policies (one transfer per UY, no banked or borrowed points may be transferred, transferred points cannot be banked or borrowed) were established to minimize and control the issues at play at this time. For the first few years, I expect that there were few transfers and MS was therefore able to make situational decisions in favor of those few members who had a unique need regarding a transfer. This expanded to a relaxation of the policies until the current state evolved and a few have taken tremendous advantage of that relaxed position. Until 2003 it seems that everyone's POS stated "one transfer per Use Year" and then in 2003 the limit of one was not in the statement (but, it still does NOT state that unlimited- or any finite number of transfers may be made). For those that suggest that this affects "EVERYONE'S flexibility" - the policies published yesterday are merely a restatement of every POS prior to 2003- the vast majority of members weren't even aware of the removal of the "limit of one" phrase from the language in the POS.

By accepting the POS thru ownership of DVC we have already accepted the fact that DVC is allowed to make certain changes in the documents "from time-to-time" without prior knowledge of the members. Mostly these issues are designed to make the DVC programs more accessible to the membership in general - like limiting banking, borrowing, transfers, reallocation of point charts, etc. . The few issues that do require approval by the owners are also spelled out in the documents.

The email notice sent yesterday will have little affect on 98% of the owners IMO and I believe the changes will ultimately have more positive effects in the future than we may recognize at this time.

Stay tuned!

 

[JimMIA]

I think Doc is right. It's interesting to discuss, but this is going to be a non-event for 98% of us.

 

[castleri]

I think Doc is right. It's interesting to discuss, but this is going to be a non-event for 98% of us.

ITA

 

[bobbiwoz]

...

I think the concern is coming more from owners at BCV/VWL/BWV who have started to find difficulty making reservations at their home resorts during popular times MORE THAN 7 months in advance (thus created by other owners at thos resorts) and DVC's assessment of the situation is that renting and transferring has played a role in that issue. In this case, DVC's inability or unwillingness to close the "transfer loophole" that morphs VB, SSR, HH and OKW points into BCV or VWL points merely by transferring large numbers of points into a 50 point BCV or VWL contract has effectively "oversold" those resorts by creating more points than should actually be in the inventory. When this is coupled by the time extension gained when the transferred points gain a new Use Year the situation is aggravated even more.
...

In my mind, this was abuse. I hope this has been addressed by the recent events.

Bobbi

 

[Oreo Cookie]

I don't believe it has anything to do with SSR owners at 7 months. As for the guides using that as a sales tool- it is one of the features of the DVC program and IMO they would be remiss NOT to use that fact in the presentations.

I think the concern is coming more from owners at BCV/VWL/BWV who have started to find difficulty making reservations at their home resorts during popular times MORE THAN 7 months in advance (thus created by other owners at thos resorts) and DVC's assessment of the situation is that renting and transferring has played a role in that issue. In this case, DVC's inability or unwillingness to close the "transfer loophole" that morphs VB, SSR, HH and OKW points into BCV or VWL points merely by transferring large numbers of points into a 50 point BCV or VWL contract has effectively "oversold" those resorts by creating more points than should actually be in the inventory. When this is coupled by the time extension gained when the transferred points gain a new Use Year the situation is aggravated even more.

The original policies (one transfer per UY, no banked or borrowed points may be transferred, transferred points cannot be banked or borrowed) were established to minimize and control the issues at play at this time. For the first few years, I expect that there were few transfers and MS was therefore able to make situational decisions in favor of those few members who had a unique need regarding a transfer. This expanded to a relaxation of the policies until the current state evolved and a few have taken tremendous advantage of that relaxed position. Until 2003 it seems that everyone's POS stated "one transfer per Use Year" and then in 2003 the limit of one was not in the statement (but, it still does NOT state that unlimited- or any finite number of transfers may be made). For those that suggest that this affects "EVERYONE'S flexibility" - the policies published yesterday are merely a restatement of every POS prior to 2003- the vast majority of members weren't even aware of the removal of the "limit of one" phrase from the language in the POS.

By accepting the POS thru ownership of DVC we have already accepted the fact that DVC is allowed to make certain changes in the documents "from time-to-time" without prior knowledge of the members. Mostly these issues are designed to make the DVC programs more accessible to the membership in general - like limiting banking, borrowing, transfers, reallocation of point charts, etc. . The few issues that do require approval by the owners are also spelled out in the documents.

The email notice sent yesterday will have little affect on 98% of the owners IMO and I believe the changes will ultimately have more positive effects in the future than we may recognize at this time.

Stay tuned!

I agree with your. And I truly believe it will has positive effects in the future!

 

[RobDoc]

In my mind, this was abuse. I hope this has been addressed by the recent events.

Bobbi

Not entirely, since even one large transfer of points to the commercial renter's account will still result in the same thing by "laundering" the VB points into BCV points. They will just stop accepting small numbers of points in favor of 200+.

What has been changed is the ability to have multiple transfers of a small number of points into one account. Some have been constantly requesting "Transfer Wanted" and then accepting transfers of 8, 12, 20 and 200 points from multiple resorts and multiple owners. That practice is now effectively halted- except for the member who only needs 8, 12, 20 or 200 points since they will still be able to accept that number of points once per Use Year.

 

[greenban]

Slightly tangential question.

Will Disney, or has Disney contacted various sites that promote renting?

Will R/T subs become a thing of the past?

We can all point and state that such and such is an abuser, an eBay renter a commercial renter, but without easy access to points and rental requests, this degree of renting would never have become so common, IMHO.

So are R/T boards safe?

I mean look how the DCL put an end to significant DCL discounts throughout the ENTIRE travel industry recently!

-Tony

PS, it really could (concievablely) go beyond that. Many restaurant theads, fast pass threads, Special rate code threads, 'game' their respective subjects. With Fastpass machines selling out earlier in the day, and people telling eachother, that you can return outside of your return time (later, not earlier) might that be next? Sharing discount codes on-line, people using them who aren't really elligable, but getting the discount/break anyway!

Or, it could just be about the renting. So again why now?

I like Beca's, Crisi's and Rinkwides hypothesi so far, but I'm not clear which one is most correct..... (Of course, I have never been accused of being clear or being able to spell, in the first place!)

curiouser and curiouser