New SD banning abortion..

[beckmrk04]

No, I'm talking about the percentages of abortions, not rapes.

Right- 30,000 pregnancies out of 209,880 rapes = 7% of rapes end in pregnancy.

 

[VSL]

No I would not.

But how do you know? Have you ever been in such an awful position?

That's the point. As the website that AnaheimGirl linked to points out, it's all very well to be against it while you're not in the situation and to say 'oh I'd never have an abortion'... you only know what you would do once you're there.

And what if it was your daughter (if you have one) in one of those positions? You wouldn't support her if she wanted to live or not carry her rapists baby to full term?

 

[beckmrk04]

No I would not.

I am honestly not being sarcastic here, but I see that you are married and have children from your siggy, and you mean you would honestly rather die and leave your husband a widower and your children motherless than terminate a fetus's life to save your own?!

 

[cardaway]

Murder is murder, no matter the vocabulary!

And not murder in this case, learn you vocabulary.

 

[momo3hods]

There are laws that provide for exceptions, such as murder. If someone breaks into your house, you have a right to defend yourself and if you kill them it is murder but more than likely you were justified, as it would be considered self-defense. Thus the exception to the law.

If abortion were to be illegal in all of the U.S. I am sure there would be exceptions to the law, i.e. the mother's life was in danger or a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.

I guess what I'm getting at is it is too easy to just "get rid" of the "mistake". When are we as a society going to make everyone accountable for their own actions??? Why are some womens' mistakes the faults of their unborn children?

 

[eclectics]

LOL!

That's the whole point about being pro-choice! When abortion is legal, it is only that. Legal, not forced. So everyone gets to make their own decisions according to their own opinions and beliefs.

It's the pro-lifers who are trying to force everyone to conform to their beliefs, seemingly thinking that theirs is the opinion that doesn't stink.

Very well said. Nobody is forcing an abortion on anybody. It's one of several choices women have when facing an unwanted pregnancy. And I also agree with those that advocate more widespread birth control funding and education. It really does lower the number of teenage pregnancies. More education is never a bad thing!

 

[Galahad]

Right- 30,000 pregnancies out of 209,880 rapes = 7% of rapes end in pregnancy.

OK, I'll probably get banned for this post. If so, here's to my YAGE!

The numbers above are not demonstrably from the same reporting period or criteria and cannot be logically used together. But that's a minor point. Some folks are so blasted hysterical about this issue that they won't even read and digest what others post about it before going ballistic.

I brought up the low percentage of pregnancies from rape in another thread in order to illustrate that the objection to a health care facility not offering a particular service were being taken on specious grounds.

For the record, and before someone else fails to read a post and jumps ever so joyously to a conclusion.

My position on abortion is that it should be legal until viability and that after viability, localities should be allowed to restrict it as much as they like. But, my position was also that health care providers should not be compelled to perform or offer any particular services as a condition of their being allowed to provide services. My example was that the large majority of OB/GYN's will not do elective abortions. Most, including my wife, will do terminations for the life/physical health of the mother, non-viability of the baby, genetic malformations, delayed interval birth, etc. She will also help facilitate a patient seeking a termination in the case of rape. Her position on that is the majority position among her profession.

I also think that standard of care for rape victims, or even suspected rape victims is the "morning after pill". It should be standard procedure. But, that doesn't translate into "every facility better provide it or lose their license". The rape statistics were used to illustrate that few people seeking that intervention were rape victims so using that as a primary reason for forcing providers to do it is not a valid argument.

Even though I think that abortion should be legal, I feel strongly that arguments that try to justify a position (or more often, to try to belittle another's opinion) by denying the humanity of an unborn baby is just dishonest. I can argue in favor of legal abortion and not try to make the absurd claim that a fetus isn't a person. We have an entire field of medicine dedicated to treating the unborn. Many people on this board have had to use high risk OB/GYN's, whose specialty is called Perinatology (or in the vernacular Maternal-Fetal-Medicine it's not Maternal-blastocyst-Medicine). It's OK to make the case that abortion needs to be kept legal - it should. But adopting positions like this just make it just as much a case of religious zealotry as extreme positions on the other side.

Also, making the argument, as was done earlier, that the fact that the fetus is not aware of it's own existence somehow adds to the argument in favor of it's inhumanity and justifying abortion is no more reasonable that making the case that killing a 4 month old child should also be just fine since there is little or no evidence that they are aware of their own existence either.

I toyed with not posting at all. Then I concluded that most of my friends here are gone so if everyone left simply lumps me in with some evil they-want-to-control-our-bodies" group then so be it.

 

[cardaway]

I toyed with not posting at all. Then I concluded that most of my friends here are gone so if everyone left simply lumps me in with some evil they-want-to-control-our-bodies" group then so be it.

You had me till...

 

[Laura]

Does that mean what I think it means?

Actually, I don't know. What do you think it means? I've never been pregnant or anything myself, I was just saying what I thought when I considered my position on abortion to be pro-life. I'm now fervently pro-choice. It was all about applying my personal religious beliefs (Catholic) to laws. I finally realized not everyone believed as I did. Plus I also am no longer Catholic. It's been an interesting journey.

 

[froglady]

There are laws that provide for exceptions, such as murder. If someone breaks into your house, you have a right to defend yourself and if you kill them it is murder but more than likely you were justified, as it would be considered self-defense. Thus the exception to the law.

If abortion were to be illegal in all of the U.S. I am sure there would be exceptions to the law, i.e. the mother's life was in danger or a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.

I guess what I'm getting at is it is too easy to just "get rid" of the "mistake". When are we as a society going to make everyone accountable for their own actions??? Why are some womens' mistakes the faults of their unborn children?

The problem with the SD law is that abortion is NOT allowed for rape or incest, only if the LIFE, not health, of the mother is in danger.

I have repeatedly said that I'm not against (in favor of would be the wrong term, as I'm not in FAVOR of abortion at all) early abortion at all. I recognize it as an individual choice, and having had two children, I can't imagine going through a pregnancy against my will.

I start getting a little more uneasy when the 20 week mark is passed, and feel that in the last few weeks that in most (but not all) cases it would be more dangerous to abort, and an "abortion" would be more akin to a c-section or inducing labor early. Unless the doctor kills the fetus/baby it could very well live. I feel that there should be a good medical reason for doing so at this point; my definition of a good reason might vary from someone else's. But, I wouldn't go so far as to outlaw late term abortions, as I don't think there are so many women getting them just because they couldn't make up their minds that it warrants making it impossible (or extremely difficult) for those few who really have life threatening complications to get them.

So I'm willing to put up with late term abortions for all women to insure that those few who really are endangered can obtain them.

I don't feel that a health provider who believes that abortion is in the best interest for his/her patient, regardless of the reason, should be prevented from performing one by the government, any more than I believe that a provider who doesn't wish to perform or assist in one should be forced to do so, regardless of the reason.

 

[beckmrk04]

Galahad: I was simply posting those numbers becuase some people are trying to make it sound like this NEVER happens. But it does. And because it does, I do think that abortion needs to remain a legal viable option for those who find themselves in this situation.

That being said, I am fervently pro-choice for anyone in any situation when they encounter an unwanted pregnancy, simply because it's their life, not mine. I can't make their decisions for them. I am not going to raise that baby. I don't have to deal with their issues.

I was not trying in any way, shape or form to belittle someone's opinion, and if you'll read back further, you'll notice that I have taken care to not only be polite myself, but to remind others to be polite as well, as this is a very sensitive issue, which clearly- no one is going to change anyone's mind on. So, fine. You vote for your people and I'll vote for mine.

No one was going "ballistic."

AND- In January I recently left my job in a sexual assualt crisis center. And you are correct,the morning after pill IS the standard of care for rape victims, but they can only give the morning after pill to the victims WHO ACTUALLY COME TO THE HOSPITAL. Which is about 40%. 60% of women do not report their rapes. Or, they seek medical care too long after the rape to recieve the morning after pill, which must be administered within 72 hours.

I'm with you. I think abortion should be kept legal. What I really don't understand is why you care what the argument for it is. There needs to be options. I don't love abortion. I don't think all unwanted babies should be aborted. Far from it. I wish there were no reasons for abortions. I wish everyone was educated and had access to birth control. I wish everyone was financially well off and could handle any children they should happen to concieve. I wish every pregnancy was the result of a consentual loving relationship. I wish every pregnancy was healthy and no threat to the mother. I wishe condoms never broke and birth control never failed. I wish more people chose adoption. BUT. It's not a utopia that we live in. It's the real world. And real people need options, and I feel that safe, legal abortion is better than the alternative, which is unsafe back alley abortions.

And no one said everyone had to provide abortions- plenty of clinics are willing to do it. I understand that some doctors are not, and that is a very personal choice. I do think that they could direct people to places where it could be done.

 

[Laura]

If abortion were to be illegal in all of the U.S. I am sure there would be exceptions to the law, i.e. the mother's life was in danger or a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.

Not necessarily, at least if South Dakota is any example.

I guess what I'm getting at is it is too easy to just "get rid" of the "mistake". When are we as a society going to make everyone accountable for their own actions??? Why are some womens' mistakes the faults of their unborn children?

Do you think it's easy to get an abortion? You just walk into a clinic, hop on the table and POOF! it's all gone? Hardly. It's not like getting your nails done. And besides that, why should a woman be punished by enduring a pregnancy because of, say, having her pill fail or a condom break? She has to endure 9 months of hormonal changes, wardrobe expenses, extra doctor visits, the inability to drive a car if her belly gets too big, the possibility of bedrest, etc. Just because a condom broke or the pill she was faithfully taking didn't work? Really? What if she's been trying to find a doctor to sterilize her because she doesn't want a child? What if she is a teenager who has never been educated about sexual reproduction because her parents are trying to shelter her? I'm not trying to be harsh, but I think a lot of people don't consider these things. Pregnancy isn't easy for every woman. It can be a tough thing to go through, and I don't think women should have to go through it because someone else thinks they need to be made "accountable".

I understand your position, believe me. I really do. But you have to know that not everyone believes a fetus is a person, a baby. I believe in reincarnation, in karma. I trust that if there is a soul in that fetus that it will return to the mother at a better time, or to a different woman. And I trust that women who make the choice to abort typically do it with a lot of thought and care. I do not think it is any easier to decide than to continue with the pregnancy. There are thoughtless women out there who use abortion indiscriminately, sure, but I'd rather they abort than torture their children for the rest of their lives.

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

You know...for the longest time I was pro-life. But in the past year or so I have really done a complete turnaround on this issue. I won't go into detail but certain events in the past few months have made me really appreciate the fact that if I ever became unexpectedly pregnant, I would have the right to choose whether I kept the baby or not. When it comes down to it, I myself would probably not be able to go through with an abortion. But I do feel that every woman should have a right to decide whether she wants to go through with a pregnancy or not. And yes, it bothers me that there are some women out there who use this method as a form of birth control BUT at the same time I would never agree with making it illegal. I do think this would be a huge step backwards in women's rights, and I hope that an abortion ban is never put in place.

 

[beckmrk04]

You know...for the longest time I was pro-life. But in the past year or so I have really done a complete turnaround on this issue. I won't go into detail but certain events in the past few months have made me really appreciate the fact that if I ever became unexpectedly pregnant, I would have the right to choose whether I kept the baby or not. When it comes down to it, I myself would probably not be able to go through with an abortion. But I do feel that every woman should have a right to decide whether she wants to go through with a pregnancy or not. And yes, it bothers me that there are some women out there who use this method as a form of birth control BUT at the same time I would never agree with making it illegal. I do think this would be a huge step backwards in women's rights, and I hope that an abortion ban is never put in place.

I completely agree with you!

 

[Galahad]

You had me till...

Yeah, I know. Sorry. It just gets extremely frustrating and I really just shouldn't get invested in arguements.

 

[VSL]

Actually, I don't know. What do you think it means? I've never been pregnant or anything myself, I was just saying what I thought when I considered my position on abortion to be pro-life. I'm now fervently pro-choice. It was all about applying my personal religious beliefs (Catholic) to laws. I finally realized not everyone believed as I did. Plus I also am no longer Catholic. It's been an interesting journey.

OMG! I thought that you were hinting that something along the lines of having to terminate a pregnancy had happened to you!

I much prefer the truth

*feels silly!*

 

[AnaheimGirl]

Yeah, I know. Sorry. It just gets extremely frustrating and I really just shouldn't get invested in arguements.

Hey, that's OK. I don't enjoy getting lumped into the evil "they want to kill all unplanned children even if it's in the 8th month, just because it's inconvenient" category, either.

Regarding your comments: I'm one who rarely uses the word fetus WRT abortions. Not because I'm trying to dehumanize a fetus, but because the majority of abortions are performed on embryos, not fetuses, as that is what they are called before 8-10 weeks gestation (depending on what definition you're reading). I use the term zygote or blastocyst when discussing the morning-after pill or stem cell research because that is what they are called at that point.

My understanding (but someone can correct me if I'm wrong) is that Maternal-Fetal Medicine is not referred to that way because all unborn humans are considered fetuses, but because most pregnancy complications requiring MFM arise during the fetal stage of development, not before. It's interesting... I agree with almost every word of your post, but I think the opposite about the word choice. To me, it seems like pro-lifers use the terms fetus and embryo prematurely, in an effort to make the unborn seem more human.

 

[Laura]

OMG! I thought that you were hinting that something along the lines of having to terminate a pregnancy had happened to you!

I much prefer the truth

*feels silly!*

No, thank goodness! But you can never tell the history of an anonymous stranger on the internet, can you? So don't feel silly!

 

[Galahad]

My understanding (but someone can correct me if I'm wrong) is that Maternal-Fetal Medicine is not referred to that way because all unborn humans are considered fetuses, but because most pregnancy complications requiring MFM arise during the fetal stage of development, not before. It's interesting... I agree with almost every word of your post, but I think the opposite about the word choice. To me, it seems like pro-lifers use the terms fetus and embryo prematurely, in an effort to make the unborn seem more human.

MFM's often deal with pre-pregnancy as well, especially if the mom or dad have a genetic history. But by-and-large the MFM is the "go-to" OB. Expert in high risk (either for mom or babies), multiples, genetic or other issues. Also, DW does sugery on fetuses while they are still cooking. Last year she actually delivered more babies than any other OB in our state and all of them were high-risk issues.

 

[AnaheimGirl]

I would like to see conflicting results on the study I presented, so maybe 2 percent? That would be double, but still a very small number to base a whole platform on. My statement was merely about the fact that most abortions are due to the fact the child would be an inconvenience. My point was that why is it justifyable for that reason??? Murder is murder, no matter the vocabulary!

I wouldn't say that is what the whole pro-choice platform is based on. It is based on a woman's right to determine what happens with her own body, and that the only person equipped to make such a decision is the woman in question, along with her doctor, not you, nor I, nor a politician. If it was only about rape, it'd be easy to come to an agreement, as many pro-lifers have no problem with exceptions for rape.

The problem then becomes, how do you determine whether a woman was raped? Is it only when a stranger grabs a woman in a parking lot, drags her into the bushes and rapes her at gunpoint? What if it's a stranger at a party that forces her into a bathroom? What if it's an acquaintance at a party that a woman doesn't realize is a rapist and takes a walk outside with him, expecting just a chat? What if she is slipped a drug, or a guy makes her a drink much stronger than she expected? Is it no longer rape because she willingly had the drink? What if she just gets drunk of her own accord and is unable to say no? What if it's a shy 15yo girl who falls for her boyfriend's line "if you loved me you would", or is threatened by him in some way?

Usually when we say "rape", we think of the stranger jumping out of the bushes kind of rape, and thankfully, now society is recognizing date-rape as well. But there are lots of other circumstances in which sex may be not completely consensual, but the majority of women would hesitate to call it rape, and certainly wouldn't file a police report. I would guess that many abortions result from some of these gray areas. I think the only person whose opinion matters WRT whether the sex was non-consenual "enough" to justify an abortion, is the woman herself.

Anyway, I went off on a little tangent, there. I know you don't think rape is an acceptable reason for an abortion, and I can appreciate your opinion. If you truly believe that abortion is murder, then it shouldn't matter whether the embryo/fetus/baby/whatever you call it is the product of rape or incest, any more than that would matter once the person was born.