New MGM Ride in the Works?

[YoHo]

Add that to the fact that no resort anywhere, ever should realistically be expected to entertain anyone every year for 10 or 20+ years, and you get what you have with Baron.

And yet, there are people who were alive in 1955 who STILL make pilgrimages to Disney every year. It may not be realistic. It may be hard to comprehend, but it is FACT that people have been enthralled with the product Disney offers for almost 50 years. And that is why the sudden wave of "baronitis" is so concerning.

Did you religiously check the Spectro schedule or hours before trips prior to this board? See, we never checked anything. I didn't check anything because it was anecdotal. We couldn't do anything about it anyway. When we couldn't do something we wanted we switched gears and always had fun...Often we found something grand and different because of this happenstance.

At the risk of beating a Dead horse my good Pirate compadre, YOU know as well as I do that the commando Disney vacation is NOTHING new. it has been going on at least since Epcot. Reservations 60 days in advance, Luau reservations two years in advance. This stuff has been going on forever so while you and Scoop and quite Honestly myself may just sit back and soak, there is a contingent, a large contingent that does it the other way. To be blunt, nobody is asking how you vacation, because how you vacation is relevant only to you. Disney has to care about how most people vacation and given my experience with guidebooks and other references over the years, I think the vast majority are at least middle of the road or commando types.

Now then, to continue on this point which is really a subtopic, but I have something to say, you both have access to Hopemeax's little compilation of park hours. you know when and by how much those changes were made. I put it to you that based on that fact alone, there is compelling evidence that Disney's actions had a direct effect on the negativity on places like this. In other words, Disney's cuts in hours corrispond nicely with when the "negativity" started to flow. SO gentlemen, you have a nice chicken and egg situation. Did Disney's recent changes bring negativity to the boards or did negativity on the boards draw more attention to Disney's changes.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by crusader
Two questions here -

Does universal really give you more in terms of consumer value? There are two areas which categorically fall into this arena: ticket prices and accomodation rates. The hotels offer an entertainment rate which is the best deal going but that's basically it. The AP ticket prices however don't appear to be offerring more.

What would this entertainment be that it would lure a Disney loyalist to the competition? Showtimes doesn't add up here. It would have to include the attractions as well.

Sorry crusader. I don't mean to imply that Universal is a better value than Disney, or that Universal has better entertainment. While overall I think that Disney is the better value of the two, Disney may have cut back just enough to lower the Disney value enough (if even just a teensy bit, and not below Universal) to make me think about trying something different. That is the point of the entertainment part. Universal isn't providing better entertainment, just something different. IF I do opt to spend a few days at the competition it will simply be because Disney has made a cut that has made me do something now that would eventually happen even if Disney never made any cuts. Eventually, we will spend days at Universal and Sea World. Without the current Disney cuts we might not do it for years yet. With the cuts we may do it sooner. As everyone points out, visiting the competition is good for us as consumers and vacationers. However, it is not good for Disney - but they must live with the results of their decisions.

Then some disenfranchisement sets in and the first thing often said is "I'm giving my business to Universal because they've built new rides!"...Well, duh! IOA is a new park, they're relatively new in the business. People will certainly find a great time there their first time (maybe even second, third, fourth and fifth) visit. But over the long haul will Universal replace the "thing" that Disney has gven over the past many years?

I don't think visiting Universal equates with Disney shortcomings necessarily but it probably does indicate that the hype over 'Disney bads' and the hype over 'IOA goods' is being heard...And listening to hype & innuendo that fills these boards, without proper filtration is a dangerous thing,

Now, as members of this board we know everything, expect everything and like Howard Beal are "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".

Alot of this frustrated talk can snowball beyond how bad it really is. We all know we can all get so worked up that we miss the forest for the trees.

I can assure you that none of these statements applies to me. Some sudden realization of disenfranchisement has not made me jump the Universal bandwagon and had me start beating the Universal drum. Furthermore, my decisions are not all about 'Disney bads' (as bantered about on this board), and really have nothing to do with 'Universal goods'. Hype and innuendo is not what I make my decisions on.

I appreciate your and Matt's contention that you've maintained your objectivity despite the negativity, I just can't see how. Did you religiously check the Spectro schedule or hours before trips prior to this board? See, we never checked anything. I didn't check anything because it was anecdotal. We couldn't do anything about it anyway. When we couldn't do something we wanted we switched gears and always had fun...Often we found something grand and different because of this happenstance.

I really do believe that I have maintained my objectivity - and that ain't easy to do lately . To answer your question - yes, I did religiously check the Spectro schedule prior to this (the R&N) board. I am quite the planner - not to the point of militant touring once we get there, but I do know what is offered when so I generally know which days we will hit which parks. Entertainment info was available from Disney prior to my discovery of the DIS. I also found the rest of the DIS long before I found this little discussion group. Had I never found you guys and the discussions we have, I would have noted the fact that Spectro was barely being offered and been unhappy about it all on my own, without any discussion, hype, or innuendo from anyone else. Like you, I have always rolled with the punches and taken reduced hours and certain entertainment as an opportunity to discover new things. That will happen again on our May and December trips. Unfortunately for Disney, the reductions may be enough for one of those new things we discover to be outside of Disney. Again, that isn't all Disney's fault. My DD sees the commercials for Universal and asks about the place. Sea World has a lot to offer for young, fish and aquatic mammel loving, kids. These are things we will do eventually. Disney may just have moved up the timeline. And all of that would be true with or without the things I read around here.

Certainly things are not running smoothly at Disney, but even if they were we would have a contingent ready to jump on every mistep or perceived abnormality. Is this disputable?

Nope - can't dispute that. I like to think I can seperate the wheat from the chaff . IMHO, much of the criticism around here is unwarranted. However, you have to admit that some of it is deserved, and it doesn't take a board like this to see it. Wouldn't you agree with that?

 

[DisneyKidds]

(Armaggedon?)

The ride , or the complete and total destruction of Disney as anyone knows it . (Ooop - there goes that negative hype and innuendo again )

 

[crusader]

Disney has to care about how most people vacation and given my experience with guidebooks and other references over the years, I think the vast majority are at least middle of the road or commando types.

Sure - but the systematic approach is destined for failure especially when applied repetitously. I will agree that prior to 9/11 this country in particular placed far too much emphasis on superficial factors. What was important basically lacked substance.

We were all served up a healthy dose of reality my friend and what we did with that experience holds true to our approach in life today. If the average guest is really that kamakazi you describe than that may explain why the parks are so barren. There aren't as many of them as you think and I hope the company realizes that for most of us it isn't about the chicken or the egg. It's about rest, relaxation, good conversation, making a difference to someone, great times, great memories - wherever, whenever.

Disney offers that - for me, it offers a grand villa with a great balcony so I can bring down 25 people for the first time. It offers me a ride like ToT where I can pile in as many as can fit who have no idea what to expect and laugh and laugh at the choice photo op when we exit. It offers me a halloween event which promises to be a great night full of entertainment.

It really is what you make it and not what you expect it to be.

 

[DisneyKidds]

It really is what you make it and not what you expect it to be.

I do agree. However, everyone has a point where they stop trying to turn lemons into lemonade, and realize that there is a cool-aid stand on the next corner. Most will never give up lemonaide, but it would be better for Disney if they never allowed people to taste the cool-aid.

 

[crusader]

Most will never give up lemonaide, but it would be better for Disney if they never allowed people to taste the cool-aid.

But DK - they can't stop the cool-aid stand from setting up shop across the street no matter how hard they try and they can't imprison their base to the point where they keep them from enjoying something they may not be offering.

It's like a security blanket for the loyalist. You can never replace it but eventually it gets worn and you have to wean yourself from it. There are some great new attractions on the horizon at disneyworld and universal. Hopefully you will be able to allow yourself to experience both without feeling a sense of guilt or abandonment of tradition. This isn't going to hurt disney. Last time I checked the population was growing not shrinking.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by crusader
But DK - they can't stop the cool-aid stand from setting up shop across the street no matter how hard they try and they can't imprison their base to the point where they keep them from enjoying something they may not be offering.

Ahh, but I believe that Disney does have a larger measure of control than you think they do. My main point is this. Without some of the reductions that have been made (hours, entertainment, DC discounts), it is very possible - no, likely - that may family wouldn't have visited the Universal parks for at least another 3 or 4 years, if not longer. That was money in Disney's pocket. Now, if we go to Universal and love it we could very well spend a few days there each trip (two a year) for that 3 or 4 years, if not longer. Money right out of Disney's pocket and into someone elses.

It's like a security blanket for the loyalist. You can never replace it but eventually it gets worn and you have to wean yourself from it. There are some great new attractions on the horizon at disneyworld and universal. Hopefully you will be able to allow yourself to experience both without feeling a sense of guilt or abandonment of tradition. This isn't going to hurt disney. Last time I checked the population was growing not shrinking.

No pangs of guilt or feelings of abandonment here. Disney will survive without a couple of hundred dollars a year from me, from you , from , from, from...................However - they won't be as strong as if they had kept one or two of us (because you can't keep them all) exclusively on Disney property. The shame in it is that there is no reason for it to be this way. Disney is still full of wonder. If the blanket were properly cared for it would still be in like new condition. I don't have to wean myself at this point. On the contrary, just like my cats mother abandoned her and stopped nursing her sooner than she should have, Disney is making me look at other sources to drink from sooner than it had to be. I realize there is other great entertainement out there - and I know full well that we will experience it sooner or later. Wouldn't you agree that later would be better for Disney, even if sooner is a good thing for me?

 

[YoHo]

Sure - but the systematic approach is destined for failure especially when applied repetitously.

Why?
It's been perfectly acceptable and viable for over twenty years, why all of a sudden is it destine for failure?

 

[HB2K]

they can't stop the cool-aid stand from setting up shop across the street no matter how hard they try and they can't imprison their base to the point where they keep them from enjoying something they may not be offering.

While you can't stop the competition from opening up shop, maybe if Disney kept serving lemon aid instead of handing their customers lemons noone would look at the competition.

Sooner or later, the lemon aid inventory will run out and all you'll be left with are lemons.

I didn't check anything because it was anecdotal. We couldn't do anything about it anyway. When we couldn't do something we wanted we switched gears and always had fun...

If you go to an Outback steakhouse for a steak, and you find they're only serving hamburgers, do you leave with the same feelings about Outback as you came in with?

 

[raidermatt]

What I don't get is why place so much emphasis on food; bussing; viewing spots; schedules; how many boats were in fantasmic; whether you had to carry your gifts back to your room: etc.........etc..............etc. If this stuff really causes you to compromise your values then what are you vacationing for in the first place? Why go somewhere you refuse to allow yourself to settle into? Why not walk away.

Who's settling? Again, our family weighs our options and goes where we want to go. Disney parks/resorts remain one of our favorite options.

That should not preclude us, however, from pointing out negative trends.

If/when those trends take enough toll to make Disney NOT one of our favorite options, we simply won't go.

No values are compromised, nor will they be. Decisions are simply made.

When it comes to this board, we discuss the whys and hows, and debate the merit of Disney's philosophies/decisions.

Hey Matt, did you hear that the Llama was a big hitter?

Yup, LONG. Hit it right into this 10,000 foot crevice right at the base of this glacier.

 

[raidermatt]

Crusader, I understand what you are saying, but you are projecting your vacation wants/needs/philosophy onto everyone else. We all have different wants/needs from our vacation time. For some, that includes being able to see certain parades, ride certain rides, eat at certain restaurants, whatever. When things are removed or shortened, options are reduced.

Regardless of what one personally thinks about the importance of those options, there will always be others who feel differently. It the number that cares about hours, schedules, closed attractions and new attractions is miniscule, then I guess in the big picture, Disney will end-up no worse for the wear.

But if that number is significant, Disney is in for more trouble.

With regard to my personal habits as they relate to the Pirate's question... I've only been to WDW three times. Prior to that it was DL only. Our first trip to WDW involved very little planning. Zero advance PS's, not plans for any particular park on any given day. The only thing we planned was a tee time.

Did we have fun? Absolutely. But after finding we had difficulty getting in to eat at some restaurants, and missing shows/parades that we didn't realize had limited schedules, and so on, we made the determination that more planning would be beneficial to our trip.

So, I took that on and that is the whole reason I started visiting these boards, and looking at hours and schedules.

I did not start looking at those things because I came to this board, I came to this board because I was looking for those things.

Now, in the process, I became more interested in the business aspects of Disney, as well as its history.

But really, you can rest assured that my dissatisfaction with Disney's trends in its business practices is not a result of a pied piper effect. Its simply the result of how those trends affect what I want from my vacation at WDW, and how I believe they affects Disney's overall success as a business.


I don't know if its important, but I do want to point out that really, I am not a commando vacationer by nature. That explains why we did almost zero planning in advance of our first WDW trip. However, I also try to adapt to the circumstances and plan what I feel needs to be planned to make the vacation as relaxing and enjoyable as possible. That explains the increase in planning activity for WDW.

In some locations, I find completely winging it and doing only small amounts of advanced planning works just fine. At others, the number of structured activities that we want to experience is more conducive to advance planning, which allows us to relax while on the trip. For us, WDW falls into the latter. I know that for others it does not, and that's great. Whatever works for you. But if we are going to discuss this stuff beyond just how it relates to ME (not M.E.), we have to understand that moves that hurt other guests are no less important in the big picture just because they didn't hurt ME.

I made that mistake when EE was originally cut. Big deal, I said. Doesn't impact me, and Disney is simply cutting costs, as any other business does.

And really, from my personal vacation pov, it didn't matter, just as it doesn't matter that they brought it back. But beyond that, it most certainly DID matter, and was a mistake Disney paid for, because it WAS important to many other guests, regardless of what Disney origianally thought. More to the point, this was an example of a philosophy, one that involved looking for cuts and ways to increase margins, as opposed to one focused on the product being offered. I now realize that even though every facet of that philosophy may not impact me directly, the philosophy itself eventually takes something that hurts everyone, and is bad for Disney's long term health.

So there. Again.

 

[crusader]

Matt I try to stay with you man I really do and this time I may actually have reached a plateau of realization with respect to where you're coming from. That is if your saying that you are not being subjective in your analysis but simply taking an objective look at the management of the place and focusing on whether or not the trends are posing a negative threat to the future success of the organization as a whole.

Pretty tall order to fill without utilizing personal experience.

True I did digress a bit and intergect some subjective "ME" type analysis but no more than anyone who reflects on their own dealings here so I can't promise that I'll retract anything.

Why? It's been perfectly acceptable and viable for over twenty years, why all of a sudden is it destine for failure?

Two reasons:

1. There are variables beyond your control which disrupt your routine.

2. No two experiences are ever the same no matter how carefully planned and executed your trip is.

If you approach something with this many choices expecting to apply a diehard agenda year after year you're bound to have a negative experience. You begin to develop a level of expectation that has no flexibility.

Wouldn't you agree that later would be better for Disney, even if sooner is a good thing for me?

Absolutely. I'm still not convinced you're going yet but that's ok. For someone who invests so heavily into this entity, it is absolutely understandable that there should be some level of consideration given on the part of the company. They are not doing nearly enough to demonstrate they appreciate your business and your convictions are warranted.

 

[crusader]

Sooner or later, the lemon aid inventory will run out and all you'll be left with are lemons.

No way. It would be so far down the road if at all. As long as they continue to introduce new attractions, keep the shows fresh, the parks clean and hopefully market the place as being more affordable they will maintain customers.

 

[YoHo]

Of course there are variables. The point is, after 20+ years of doing buisness fairly consistantly, Disney changed. They introduced new heretofore unseen variables. THAT is Disruptive. THAT is not something I the guest should have just anticipated. WDW has been around for 30 fricken years and from 1972 until approximatly 1998 everything was the fricken same where hours and general scheduling was concerned. Then they change things and I'm supposed to simply expect that? That's just the breaks?

They 26 years of consistant policy out the window and I'm supposed to expect it?

 

[HB2K]

Originally posted by crusader
No way. It would be so far down the road if at all. As long as they continue to introduce new attractions, keep the shows fresh, the parks clean and hopefully market the place as being more affordable they will maintain customers.

Agreed....but are they doing any of those things in a meaningful manner?

 

[raidermatt]

Matt I try to stay with you man I really do..

There's one in every crowd!

That is if your saying that you are not being subjective in your analysis but simply taking an objective look at the management of the place and focusing on whether or not the trends are posing a negative threat to the future success of the organization as a whole.

Pretty tall order to fill without utilizing personal experience.

Yes, that's pretty much it, and yes, you're right that its pretty much impossible without utilizing personal experience. (It may take me awhile to get my point across, but I am pretty stubborn about it...)

I try to use the personal experience as a tool to judge what is good for customers vs. bad, but it only works if you can put yourself in the other guys shoes. We have to be able to take the leap past what it means to us, and instead look at what it means to others, to what extent and to how many. Its an inexact science, especially without any real data to use in most cases. But we can still identify trends and come up with educated theories.

That's why something like the near elimination of Mickey Head Butter can have virtually no impact on my personal vacation, but I still see it as another link in a bad chain that is being forged by a bad philosophy. And my opinion is it equals bad business for Disney.

 

[crusader]

YoHo............(and WWFH who prompted this)

Of course there are variables. The point is, after 20+ years of doing buisness fairly consistantly, Disney changed. They introduced new heretofore unseen variables. THAT is Disruptive. THAT is not something I the guest should have just anticipated.

Maybe you aren't expected to anticipate a change in park hours or scheduling because for 20+ years they remained relatively consistent but you cannot approach your vacation thinking your experience should mimic the past.

I am speaking on a personal level here in response to someone's frustration with their trip because things they have come to rely on have changed. Usually once something is received it becomes expected rather than appreciated. Change is a fundamental and invariably happens in so many facets you cannot possibly be so regimented to the point of inflexibility. This approach is destined for failure.

Your looking at it from the opposite spectrum in terms of the company. Your right - they should not be in the business of changing what has become precedent to their base. I am certainly not trying to aid in their defense. It may seem monumental in terms of the direction of the theme parks but we all know it can turn on a dime if the numbers go up.

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Maybe you aren't expected to anticipate a change in park hours or scheduling because for 20+ years they remained relatively consistent but you cannot approach your vacation thinking your experience should mimic the past.

It just doesn't appear that you understand what some of the root issues are.

If we cannot discuss Disney without making our own vacations the benchmarks for everyone else, fine: here's the benchmark I'm talking about.

I am not upset with Disney because the hours are different than they were 30 years ago, I am upset with Disney because within two weeks of arriving for our paid-for vacation, Disney told us that meals for which we had confirmed PSes had been cancelled, park hours at three separate parks had been shortened, and several scheduled showings of parades, fireworks, and Fantasmic had been dropped.

The comparison between the 1970's and the 2000's is between the way Disney treated its customers, it is not a counting game. You will never understand that if you keep wallowing in the examples people mention to illustrate their points, rather than probing the nature of the points, themselves.

Usually once something is received it becomes expected rather than appreciated

You keep leaving out the part where the receiver is paying good money for this. This is not about some people being ungrateful for what they receive from Disney, this is about some people deciding to not give Disney money anymore, for what they have been receiving.

That's what business is all about. I really don't understand what point you are ultimately trying to make. I agree, my expectations of Disney were too high, so I'm not going back, because I want my expectations met when I enter into a business agreement. Heap condescension on my expectations if that's all you can come up with, but that same condescending attitude towards its customers is precisely why Disney is failing.

Those nuts in Car #3 should be heroes to Disney... lifelong fans who aren't buying anymore yet are willing to step up and say why; to explain how to regain their patronage. Respond with "I don't care what you want, you will buy this and you should damn well appreciate and enjoy it" at the peril of your business.

And Disney has.

-WFH
www.jjewell.com

 

[crusader]

You keep leaving out the part where the receiver is paying good money for this.

Probably because we are not talking about the time disney kept increasing its prices while maintaining the same level of standards. Look back over the arguments which imply the consumer was always willing to pay top buck for this experience because of its uniqueness and "value" in terms of product. Then look back over the pricing strategy for this vacation - right down to the fee for a preferred campsite and you will see how the curtain worked.

Prices kept going up but heck the economy was booming everybody was content and nobody paid very much attention to the subtle change in your drink fee or your occupancy tax or the number of days on a park hopper.

Now, when these little increases have supersaturated themselves you are forced to feel the other side of the equation - cutbacks, setbacks, and takeaways. Welcome to the recession!

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Probably because we are not talking about the time disney kept increasing its prices while maintaining the same level of standards

Perhaps we should talk about that time... that was when Disney could get customers, something they're having a tough time doing employing the strategies you champion.

-WFH
www.jjewell.com