Need thoughts regarding violent behavior in kindergarten class

[Jey12]

This is going to be rather long, but I'll try my best to cut things short where I can.

I am at a loss with what to do or what I should do regarding another kid in DD5's kindergarten class. First some basic info. DD5 is in public school and goes to half day kindergarten. This is her teacher's first year and so far is just wonderful! DD has made many friends and until lately has loved her school days. She went to preschool last year so this isn't all new for her either. Her class originally started with only 12 kids and has jumped to 20 children in the last 2 weeks. One of these new students is causing quite a problem with the rest of the class. Last week after I picked DD up she informs me that "Joe" kicked her. I asked for details as to what was going on when he kicked her, where he kicked her and what she did after. She tells me they were in line at PE class and he was behind her and just kicked her in the behind. She told the teacher and the little boy had to spend the rest of the class time sitting off to the side. My reaction was first to tell DD she did the right thing by letting the teacher know, and that "Joe" had received his punishment and that the whole situation was over. My other thought was he's 5, he probably likes her, or it was an accident of an excited little kid in gym class, so I never brought this situation up after that afternoon.

The next week she tells me after school (an hour later of course) that "Joe" spit in her face. I asked if maybe he was just talking to her really close and did he spit then? No she said he walked up to her in line, and then she proceeded to demonstrate how he spit right into her face. Thankfully she didn't really spit in mine, I was able to understand without the water effects. Again I asked what her reaction was and she said she told the teacher and he had to go to the office. We again talked about how proud I was of her for knowing this behavior was wrong and letting the teacher know. Also proud of her for not physically going after this kid, I mean he did spit in her face. We then spent time talking about her good choices and the kid's not so good choices and that she was doing a good job. Then we enjoyed our weekend. Come Monday when I was picking up DD I see this kid and his mom talking to the teacher. Naturally I can't help but overhear the mom asking if he'd received a warning prior to being sent to the office for this spitting incident. Uh really? That's her main concern? The teacher tells her that yes, he'd spit in her face (the teacher's) earlier that day and he had to have quiet time, so when a student said he'd done the same thing it was an automatic trip to the office. She also went on to say that spitting is usually something kids should know not to do and they aren't normally going to get a warning for that. Mom's response? Oh ok as long as he had the warning. Again really? So I wait my turn, and talk to the teacher about my child being spit on. She confirms that DD's description of events was correct and she was very sorry about all of it, and that she and the school were doing what they could to keep this from happening. I'm a pretty easy going parent, so while I'm not thrilled that my kid was spit on, at least it's being dealt with. I then reinforce to DD what is expected out of her at school, her reply is why are you talking to me I'm not the one that spit on someone. I love 5 year olds. We then talked about how some kids don't always understand how to behave or make the good choices she does, etc....she did enjoy that part of the conversation a little more. I also enforced while I was very proud of her for talking to her teacher and then coming home and talking to DH and I about things, to make sure she wasn't telling the teacher everything "Joe" does. Meaning I didn't want her to run to the teacher everytime the kid picked up crayon. We then talked about on purpose vs. accidents and all of that good stuff. When her eyes started to glaze over we went to the park.

So today I pick DD up and she gets into the car and bursts out into tears. It seems "Joe" had grabbed her friend's arm and scratched her so bad she was bleeding and had to go to the nurse. I get back out of the car and we head right back into the school. I again talk with her teacher who looked like she wanted to cry her own self at this point and she again confirmed that DD's description of the events was correct. The kids were sitting in a group listening to a story and "Joe" out of nowhere grabs the girl's arm next to him and next thing she knows the girl is crying and bleeding. Joe was sent straight to the office and did not return to class. She said his foster mom would have to come pick him up so they could talk about everything. Well now that for me did change things a bit. On one hand the mother in me feels for this little boy. What has he been through that has made him this angry at 5 years old? Obviously something that led to him being removed from his home. The other mother in me, and this is the voice I listen the most to, isn't happy at all that my child is in class with this child. The teacher once again praised Jordyn for being concerned over her friend being hurt and telling me what had happened.

My question is has anyone else been through this in kindergarten? I know that with privacy laws, and other rules there's only so much the school can do about this. I can't know exactly what happened to Joe in regards to punishment or what steps are being taken with him, especially in the cases where the harm doesn't directly involve my child. Even though mental harm is obviously being done when she breaks into tears after school and asks not to go back. I plan on talking with the principal and expressing that I think the teacher is doing a great job, but what steps are being taken to protect my child? Does anyone have any other suggestions?

I understand that the foster mom is limited on what actions she can take at home. Then again I still don't agree with her main concern over the spitting issue being that he'd gotten a warning first. It seems to me this little boy might need a different placement, but I also know that's way easier said than done! DD is an only child and this is our first experience with all of this. Sadly I'm sure it's not our last. I'm glad she's confident enough to identify what kind of behavior needs to be reported and isn't afraid to come home and talk about it. I also fear if this continues and in her mind nothing is being done, she'll stop doing that.

Ok I'll stop for now. Thoughts?

 

[bearloch]

You have done well so far It may still get worse depending on what the real story is with the boy. I would talk to dd5 and kinda" explain" that he is scared and may still act out and that she should still report to teacher and you. And if he treatens her verbally at all or her friends at all to tell teacher right away.. Its very hard to get kids that are in trouble/ at risk the right help in school at a young age.. Hope its get better soon for everyone.. also if your daughter is still upset about school you can request that she be keep away from the boy at all time.. goodluck!

 

[tlh0726]

DS went through this in his headstart preschool class.
We were told that they had to gather enough documentation to be able to have him removed from the class for evaluation and he would not return until he had a full time aide with him.
They could not go into details for privacy issues, but we were told that if he hurt another child he would be immediately removed. If he was hitting the teachers, they had to "take" it. Meanwhile the rest of the class just got to sit there and witness the behavior.
I made several call into management expressing my concern over this and even told them about my own child's behavior change at home.
Finally the kid was removed.

You need to talk to the principal immediately and voice your concerns for your child's safety and mental health.
If they do not want to do anything, then go to the next level.
This teacher needs assistance. If she is the only one in the classroom, the class is not learning while she is trying to control this child.

 

[mpls_mm]

I get confused sometimes about why the school does things a certain way liek hiring aides to follow these problem kids. There is a violent girl in DD's class, she is known for biting. That's how we refer to her, the biter. She acts out, steals, and is a general nuisance. She gets suspended and comes back and nothing happens. Her parents stage a "santa crime scene" in their front yard every year with santa being slaughtered so I guess they aren't a good influence. Oh and she is 13, and this is 7th grade.

Now they hired a full time aide to go everywhere with her. Why do they do that? My DS has 3 students in his class that have aides. I think there are more aides than teachers some days.

 

[jaceraden]

All kids need access to school and even 'problem' kids have to go somewhere but it must be hard when your child is being affected. I know around here kids with any sort of issues being mainstream have to have a 1:1 aide. My sister's foster sons are not allowed in classes if their aide is sick or whatnot and actually were not allowed into the mainstream until the aides, action plan, etc. were in place.

I hope this situation works out for all involved but it does sound like the matter needs to be taken higher up.

 

[pls5286]

My step-son is bipolar and autistic, so I am coming to you as a parent from the other side. I will be the first to admit that he is no angel. When his dad and I first met, he was mainstreamed in the local school system, and was the problem child. He would act out, hit, cuss, bite, kick, throw desks, and had to have a one--to-one aid. His outbursts got to the point that he was put in the homebound program until they could get him enrolled in a school that is run by our mental health agency in our area and specializes in children with behavior problems.

This is DSSs third year in this school, and his first full school year since he has been living with his dad and I full time and on our routine. We have set rules for him and he is doing well. His behavior problems have went down greatly, but he still will have a bad day here and there.

People who say that these kids don't belong in school have never been on this side. I have. My child deserves and education just like yours, and my DF and I fight for that right daily for him. You are ready to pull your hair out trying to come up with ideas to get him to behave. We adjusted meds, we took away privileges, we went to school and sat with him. Sometimes, it is not as easy as it sounds.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone my child's behavior, and I am more than willing to discipline him for his bad behavior, and we do, but until you know the full story, give the child (and parents a break)

 

[scrapquitler]

I get confused sometimes about why the school does things a certain way liek hiring aides to follow these problem kids. There is a violent girl in DD's class, she is known for biting. That's how we refer to her, the biter. She acts out, steals, and is a general nuisance. She gets suspended and comes back and nothing happens. Her parents stage a "santa crime scene" in their front yard every year with santa being slaughtered so I guess they aren't a good influence. Oh and she is 13, and this is 7th grade.

Now they hired a full time aide to go everywhere with her. Why do they do that? My DS has 3 students in his class that have aides. I think there are more aides than teachers some days.

Why do they do it? Because legally every child is supposed to be placed in a manner where they are taught in the 'least restrictive' environment.

Now if i remember correctly from my Special Ed classes, if the child exhibits behaviors (such as biting, kicking, spitting, loud outbursts, etc) that are directly attributed to their disability, they CANNOT be disciplined for them. For example: a child with Tourettes syndrome...and that manifests as kicking in that child. If the child kicks another child, she can't be expelled for doing so becuase it was caused by her Tourettes.

 

[luvmy3]

OP, I never went through this situation but my neighbor did. The boy (also a neighbor) was violent at the bus stop, and at school. It started in K, and lasted through 1st grade when he attacked a teacher. After that he was no longer allowed in the school without a one on one aide until the end of that school year. The next, he was transferred to a school with a self contained special ed class. I know my neighbor had many many conversations with the teacher and principal. Unfortunately there isn't much more you can do except continuing to voice your concerns when something happens. Hopefully someone will listen and get that kid out of the mainstream class, he doesn't belong there if he can't control his violent tendencies. he may deserve an education, but that shouldn't come at the expense of other student's safety.

 

[brymolmom]

My step-son is bipolar and autistic, so I am coming to you as a parent from the other side. I will be the first to admit that he is no angel. When his dad and I first met, he was mainstreamed in the local school system, and was the problem child. He would act out, hit, cuss, bite, kick, throw desks, and had to have a one--to-one aid. His outbursts got to the point that he was put in the homebound program until they could get him enrolled in a school that is run by our mental health agency in our area and specializes in children with behavior problems.

This is DSSs third year in this school, and his first full school year since he has been living with his dad and I full time and on our routine. We have set rules for him and he is doing well. His behavior problems have went down greatly, but he still will have a bad day here and there.

People who say that these kids don't belong in school have never been on this side. I have. My child deserves and education just like yours, and my DF and I fight for that right daily for him. You are ready to pull your hair out trying to come up with ideas to get him to behave. We adjusted meds, we took away privileges, we went to school and sat with him. Sometimes, it is not as easy as it sounds.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone my child's behavior, and I am more than willing to discipline him for his bad behavior, and we do, but until you know the full story, give the child (and parents a break)

I commend you for going through everything you have to for your child. ANd for acknowledging his challenges. Keep up the good work!!!

Now, that said, no child's right to an education can/should interfere with any other child's right to that education. Yes, every child has the occasional misstep. Every other child in that room has the exact same right but it sounds based on the OP that the other kids' rights are being removed/hindered by this one child. Iif it ends up being a single child taking all the time and attention from what the actual goal of the classroom is - to learn things - then something needs to be done. Not every child belongs in every classroom. YOu found a good fit for your child and it sounds like perhaps for Joe in OP's situation - perhaps the classroom he is in is not a good fit - at least not if the other kids aren't getting the education they deserve because of him.

OP - My ds had 2 behavioral issues in his Kindergarten room. At the very first parent-teacher conference I discussed it with his teacher. She asked that I bring my concerns to the administration. She had an action plan in place already to get these kids into a different setup. One of them had a 1:1 aide by November or December and that greatly improved things. The aide could remove the child from the classroom frequently and allow the rest of the kids the full attention of the teacher. In your shoes I would make sure to speak to the principal about your concerns. And maybe even put in an official 'complaint' about the spitting incident. It may assist the teacher and administration to get the wheels in motion to get a better fit for this student.

 

[Jey12]

Thanks for all of the information and examples from everyone! I plan on setting up a time to speak with the principal about my concerns for my child's safety. The teacher is doing everything she can and so far I think the whole situation has been handled well.

I feel for this boy, I really do. I don't think anyone should be denied an education. I have a real concern that this child has only been in this class for less than 2 weeks. In less than a week his behavior has progressed from what I'd consider to be fairly harmless kicking from behind, to spitting into someone's face and now to a sudden outburst that drew blood on a student. Not to mention all of the other incidents that haven't been reported, and the regular actions he has that scare the other kids to the point of crying in class. While I do understand what the parent that has a child on the opposite side of this is saying and I cannot imagine the daily struggle you go through. As the parent of a child that we are blessed does not have those kind of conditions I have to say as much as any child has the right to an education, DD has equal rights to her education and not to fear being in the classroom. My personal thought is this little boy is 5, obviously he's not getting far academically if he's constantly acting out. It would seem to me the focus should be more on teaching him behavior in a social setting as opposed to mainstreaming him and hoping he absorbs something academically related in the process. Meanwhile the other kids in the classroom might not reach their full potential due to the constant disruptions and stress this one child is causing. I think the foster mom is probably doing all that she can, although personally I don't see where making sure he's getting a warning first with violent behavior is helpful. She seems to be a bit misguided here. To me all it's teaching this child is he gets a freebie warning before an consequence happens. If this involves talking out of turn, the basic pushing and line cutting common with this age group, yes a warning is totally appropriate. Drawing blood and other violent actions to me need to have a set consequence that is applied immediately with no warning. At the very least I do feel an apology is needed for these instances to the children affected.

Hopefully an aide for this child will be in the works soon. I would welcome this and teach my daughter to be welcoming to this student once his behaviors are different or he's making an effort to learn a different way to express himself. She's only starting her educational journey and has many more years of kids with different values and behaviors in her classes. My problem is the outright violence. We're not talking about a toddler in a daycare setting, this is a young child that is able to do some serious harm to another student. I'm not saying put him somewhere and toss away the key. He really needs proper direction and is at an age where if he doesn't get it now he could really have serious problems later in life. I just believe that until his violent behaviors are better controlled he does not need to be in a mainstream classroom.

 

[Jedana]

My step-son is bipolar and autistic, so I am coming to you as a parent from the other side. I will be the first to admit that he is no angel. When his dad and I first met, he was mainstreamed in the local school system, and was the problem child. He would act out, hit, cuss, bite, kick, throw desks, and had to have a one--to-one aid. His outbursts got to the point that he was put in the homebound program until they could get him enrolled in a school that is run by our mental health agency in our area and specializes in children with behavior problems.

This is DSSs third year in this school, and his first full school year since he has been living with his dad and I full time and on our routine. We have set rules for him and he is doing well. His behavior problems have went down greatly, but he still will have a bad day here and there.

People who say that these kids don't belong in school have never been on this side. I have. My child deserves and education just like yours, and my DF and I fight for that right daily for him. You are ready to pull your hair out trying to come up with ideas to get him to behave. We adjusted meds, we took away privileges, we went to school and sat with him. Sometimes, it is not as easy as it sounds.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone my child's behavior, and I am more than willing to discipline him for his bad behavior, and we do, but until you know the full story, give the child (and parents a break)

We had a child in DS's 1st grade class that was out of control. He screamed, spit at the teacher and other kids, hit, kicked, scratched, snatched things out of other kids hands, etc. I went to the teacher the first few go-rounds, and then to the principal for the next set. The school wouldn't do anything because he was special needs and in foster care and "we had to understand he didn't get it". He "got it" well enough when he was told he couldn't attend the pizza party unless he did his schoolwork for a week, or the ice cream social unless he didn't get "red carded" (behavior card) for a week--he did fine then.

I had to threaten legal action to get them to protect MY child.


If my child does not do his homework, he gets a zero on that paper. If the special needs student does not do his homework, he gets coached through it or is given a pass. I am fine with that. .

There is a point where your child's rights and needs cannot continue to infringe on my child's rights and needs. I feel for parents of special needs children, and I thank God daily that I only have to deal with "normal" behaviors from mine, I truly do. But my child should not have to be afraid to go to school because your child cannot stop himself

 

[Fjobe]

Now if i remember correctly from my Special Ed classes, if the child exhibits behaviors (such as biting, kicking, spitting, loud outbursts, etc) that are directly attributed to their disability, they CANNOT be disciplined for them. For example: a child with Tourettes syndrome...and that manifests as kicking in that child. If the child kicks another child, she can't be expelled for doing so becuase it was caused by her Tourettes.

This is correct - Honig vs. Doe is the case typically used as the example here.

 

[Jey12]

I get confused sometimes about why the school does things a certain way liek hiring aides to follow these problem kids. There is a violent girl in DD's class, she is known for biting. That's how we refer to her, the biter. She acts out, steals, and is a general nuisance. She gets suspended and comes back and nothing happens. Her parents stage a "santa crime scene" in their front yard every year with santa being slaughtered so I guess they aren't a good influence. Oh and she is 13, and this is 7th grade.

Now they hired a full time aide to go everywhere with her. Why do they do that? My DS has 3 students in his class that have aides. I think there are more aides than teachers some days.

I do understand why they do this. I would welcome an aide for this little boy. He's only 5 years old, has been removed from his home by the state and I have no idea how many other foster homes he's been in. I also don't want to imagine what he's been through for him to have this much anger at such a young age. If an aide could help him identify problems and how to properly react, while keeping the classroom going and keeping the students safe I'd be 110% behind it. I also can't agree with calling the girl you're speaking of "the biter" because kids tend to live up to those kind of expectations if she's being called that by other students and adults.

I have had a rather long talk with DD tonight, as much as you can consider a long talk with a 5 year old, about Joe. I have explained that I would like it if she tried to stay away from him as much as possible while he tries to figure out what is expected of him during school. I also spoke about if next week Joe hasn't made any bad choices and he'd like to play with her and her friends at recess or in the classroom that she should allow it. I used examples of how her older cousins sometimes ignore her and how she feels when they do that. I don't want her to think that someone is forever damaged goods just because of a few actions. If a month or so from now Joe has received some guidance and is doing well in the classroom, or if he's being placed back in the classroom if he's removed due to these incidents, he does deserve to be greeted and given another chance. Right now to me he's a lost, scared little boy that has no clue what he's supposed to do or act. At the same time as a parent I have to caution my child about being near him while he continues to act this way. He's went from kicking someone to flat out grabbing a girl's arm and digging into the skin until she was screaming and there was blood from the wound in a very short time. I do not feel comfortable at all waiting to see what the next incident is while the school tries to put paperwork together and figure out what exactly to do.

I do thank you for sharing your experience, and hopefully the young woman in your DD's class is kept from harming the other students and she herself finds a reason to change her behavior. I also totally agree with you in some instances it is the parental, or lack of parental involvement that is the root problem of these issues. Not always but sadly all too often.

 

[mpls_mm]

I totally get if there is a learning disability to have an aide, it's just a weird setup in my sons room to have three aides plus the teachers assistant and the teacher in a class with 15 kids. Most of the elementary is like that. Now when a kid is 13 and has an aide because she bites and has no learning issues, they should do something with that. The kids have to get tetanus shots after she bites them and it is disruptive. There is a actually a school here too for kids on a different learning track. There are foster kids, and kids who have outbursts, they have a good program and many times after a stint there, they get into the mainstream school again. The parents have to agree though so some never get in. We know of a girl in foster care who had outbursts and even hurt someone and she went there and is now in a class with my daughter and is doing great. She had no structure at home and after learning how to manage her time and follow rules, she is fine, I don't think having an aide following her would have been as effective as figuring out her issues and coming up with a plan and working through the plan.

 

[Jey12]

I totally get if there is a learning disability to have an aide, it's just a weird setup in my sons room to have three aides plus the teachers assistant and the teacher in a class with 15 kids. Most of the elementary is like that. Now when a kid is 13 and has an aide because she bites and has no learning issues, they should do something with that. The kids have to get tetanus shots after she bites them and it is disruptive. There is a actually a school here too for kids on a different learning track. There are foster kids, and kids who have outbursts, they have a good program and many times after a stint there, they get into the mainstream school again. The parents have to agree though so some never get in. We know of a girl in foster care who had outbursts and even hurt someone and she went there and is now in a class with my daughter and is doing great. She had no structure at home and after learning how to manage her time and follow rules, she is fine, I don't think having an aide following her would have been as effective as figuring out her issues and coming up with a plan and working through the plan.

Wow it sounds like your district has a good plan in place. Sorry if i misread your earlier post. Although almost having a 1:1 ratio of adults to kids is better than private school!

I plan to stop by the office tomorrow and see when would be a good time to talk to the principal about this issue. Fortunately the kids are all very young and very forgiving of certain actions. If this kid can get the help he needs soon I hope he'd find a class of new friends quickly.

 

[mpls_mm]

Wow it sounds like your district has a good plan in place. Sorry if i misread your earlier post. Although almost having a 1:1 ratio of adults to kids is better than private school!

I plan to stop by the office tomorrow and see when would be a good time to talk to the principal about this issue. Fortunately the kids are all very young and very forgiving of certain actions. If this kid can get the help he needs soon I hope he'd find a class of new friends quickly.

I hope the principal figures out a solution! Stitches and tetanus shots stink!! We've had to get both from a child bite. DD got bit in 1st grade.

 

[Feckless]

We've had parents in our school lobby the School Board for a one-on-one aid for a student they considered to be violent, even when the teachers didn't think he required one. I think an aid would be a good solution to this issue. If the child has violent tendencies, the first thing has to be to ensure that the other students are physically safe. You can't learn in a too chaotic environment.

The transition to school can be so difficult, especially for kids who haven't been in daycare or preschool. Hopefully they can put something in place for him in the meanwhile. My DS had some issues transitioning into full day school in Grade One, and we devised a reward system - if he got at least 4 out of 5 stickers for listening to his teacher and he got a 10 minute Lego break with a favourite teacher - one in the morning and one in the afternoon. He went from upset and somewhat disruptive to near model student inside of a week, and after two weeks the reward system was phased out. It was uncanny. Now he wasn't/isn't violent at all... But there are different things they can do without needing extra resources in the classroom. We used some techniques and reward systems from the special ed teacher, although my DS is not special needs. Whatever works!

 

[Kat&Dom]

OP, I think you are handling things very well and your daughter sounds like a very intelligent and loving young lady.

My son had similar experiences in Kindergarten last year. On his first day, 2 boys spit on him - not the way I wanted his first day to school to go. I sent a note to the teacher mentioning what had occured during recess. She had a conversation with the 2 boys about how inappropriate their actions were. She also talked to my son privately and told him that when situations like that occur, he needs to come and tell her immediately so that she can address them.

Several times during the year, my son would come home with stories of how these 2 boys had been mean and hurt someone. We would talk through his feelings about it. One of the boys had behavioural issues and had a full time aide - they discovered that he did better in the mornings so they had him just attend in the mornings - there were way less issues after they changed his schedule (My son was in full day Kindergarten).

The other boy was quite a bit taller than the other kids and I think that he just lacked social skills to interact with the smaller kids and he was a little rough so no one wanted to play with him so he would act out. I think that he really wanted to have friends and be liked but he kept hurting kids so everyone avoided him. I told my son that I thought the boy wanted to be his friend and to not hold grudges.

I feel sorry for these lost children who act out so badly and want so much to be loved but just lack the social skills to interact with their own age group. It is heartbreaking but I also want my son to have a safe, happy, positive experience in school. I guess as parents, all we can do is teach our children compassion and to show kindness to these lost children and hope that it makes a difference.

I am very proud of how my son handles himself. He is a very kind, compassionate and forgiving young man yet he is able to stand up for himself as your daughter does.

 

[Leajess99]

I get confused sometimes about why the school does things a certain way liek hiring aides to follow these problem kids. There is a violent girl in DD's class, she is known for biting. That's how we refer to her, the biter. She acts out, steals, and is a general nuisance. She gets suspended and comes back and nothing happens. Her parents stage a "santa crime scene" in their front yard every year with santa being slaughtered so I guess they aren't a good influence. Oh and she is 13, and this is 7th grade.

Now they hired a full time aide to go everywhere with her. Why do they do that? My DS has 3 students in his class that have aides. I think there are more aides than teachers some days.

I wish I could understand this as well especially when many children with special needs/disabilities cannot get an aid when they need one.

 

[Leajess99]

OP, when my daughter was in Kindergarten she had a boy in her class that was also in foster care and out of control. He only lasted in the school for about a month.

In this situation another parent contacted CPS becuase the school was doing nothing to protect the other kids in the class and her child was victimized. The child was moved to a better program to deal with his mental and behavioral needs.

My daughter and her other classmates were exposed to this child throwing a chair at the teacher and cursing up a storm. He also abused other students in the class. Sometimes you have to do what is necessary to protect your child as the mother who called CPS did.