Need advice... custody problems in Florida

[bunny]

Because child support is not tied to visitation, a lot of times dads are treated as nothing more than a pay check. My husband's ex told him a number of times that as far as she was concerned her husband was the boys' father. She even went so far as trying to change their last names. She moved a few times without telling us her new address. My husband went to the Child Support Office and begged them to tell him where the kids lived. The office knew. They were still taking the child support payments and sending them to her. They said legally they couldn't give that information out. We had to pay a lawyer to track her down.

Dads are more than pay checks. The child should not be given a choice about visitation. It is not right for the mom to allow him to do that.

 

[bunny]

Child support is 100% in the control of the parent. Visitation actually involves buy in from the child as well. Today's children are savvy enough to know that at a certain age a judge will side with them. Had my son's dad attempted to force the issue when things were tense he wouldn't be seeing him at ALL anymore because he'd have made the kid that angry.

Thank goodness my parents weren't divorced. My dad and I butted heads all the time when I was a teenager. He is religious and very strict. If I would have had somewhere else to live with less rules, I would have jumped at the chance. As it turns out, I learned a lot from my father who probably protected me more than I will ever know. Why should children of divorce be given the right to choose not to see their noncustodial parent just because they are angry with them?

 

[bunny]

It always amazes me when parents get divorced then are upset when the child doesn't want to play along with whatever rules are written out by a bunch of lawyers about their lives.

The parents broke the ultimate promise to their children by getting divorced. In my view, you pretty much lose parental moral authority at that point.

I agree, but my husband's ex left him for another man who was in the military. She blindsided him. She packed a few bags and took the kids to California. When he came home from work one day, they were gone. She cleaned out their bank accounts and bought 5 first class tickets from Pennsylvania to California for $7000. He begged her to come back but she was "in love". They fought it out in court and my husband lost everything he financially had as well as custody of his boys. While this was going on, his company went out of business, so he also lost his job. I guess that means he should have also lost his "parental moral authority", because that is what happened to him right about the time he had a nervous breakdown.

 

[Mama Who]

We weren't discussing custodial parents who were invested in the custodial parents visitation. We were discussing those who weren't. But you see, I'm NOT invested in their visitation. It has been best for EVERYONE since I decided it was not my battle to fight. I would simply become even less interested in Dad's rights and needs than I am now which is hardly at all.


But that wasn't the point I made. There are custodial parents, sadly quite a few - I didn't say the majority - who don't have a problem with their children not going to see the non-custodial parent. Unfortunately, the non-custodial parent doesn't have the option of not having their child spend time with the custodial parent who doesn't see their visitation as important.
I think it's sort of sad when my kid retaliates against his father by refusing to visit but I don't get worked up about it. The non-custodial has the option of bringing his happy self to where the kid is any time his visitation time rolls around. If kid won't go there, perhaps Dad should go to the kid. And it's not so much that visitation isn't important, just that it's for Dad's benefit, not mine. We're both parents and if the visit is to benefit the child and ONE parent, it's not the other parent's job to make it happen. Why should I fight to give up my kid? It doesn't make any sense.

Also, I said nothing about blackmailing a child. Child support isn't for me, it's for my kid. Threatening to cut off the money that supports him if he doesn't want to come visit is absolutely blackmail. What I said was that I wondered how much more interested the custodial parent would be in the visitation if they lost child support if the child didn't visit. So, actually, that would mean that the custodial parent would be the one putting money first since they didn't see the visitation as being important until child support was a part of it. Just a thought... Ah, so if I don't kowtow to the demands of the abent parent it's my own fault when he stops supporting his child? I guess i shouldn't have worn that dress, either...




You know, my child didn't always want to brush her teeth or come home at the time I prescribed or a lot of other things. As a parent, it was my responsibility to direct her in the way that was in her own best interest. Under no circumstances would I side with my child in going to court to keep from seeing her father (assuming that the parent is a good parent). I cannot for the life of me see how anybody can think it's not in a child's best interest to be involved with both parents. And again, you've totally taken dad's knees out with the idea that mom needs to do the parenting for him. If I'm the parent on duty, I get the teeth brushed. If he's the parent on duty, he gets the teeth brushed. My relationship with my kid is my problem to manage. HIS relationship with his kid... that's for him to manage. If he's a real parent with rights and loves the child and wants to see him, he gets to make that happen. As the person doing 99% of the parenting, I shamelessly abdicate to him the responsibility for his own relationship with his kid.

I understand your point, I just think you're wrong. You think that since Dad pays CS, Mom should be responsible for making the kid visit. You don't take into account the feelings of the child or the responsibility of Dad to parent in matters that impact him directly. I think that makes Dad seem like not really a parent or authority figure and does serious harm to his standing. If Dad needs Mom to tell the kid to visit then Mom becomes the sole authority and the sole parent. Do non-custodial dads really want that? Do they want to be a chore mom orders the kid to do? Do they want to be the guys who can only get obedience or cooperation when Mom backs them up?

Is dad a parent or not? And if he's a parent, why can't HE make the kid visit?

 

[torinsmom]

Exactly why I am against the custodial parent moving more than 50 miles away from the non - custodial parent. Not sure 50/50 split living is best for the child but at least non - custodial parent and children could spend more time together, be at school functions etc.

There is 50/50 custody without 50/50 living arrangements.

In this case, the non-custodial parent moved away from the custodial parent. Sounds like to me the child has always lived in FL.

When my cousin divorced, the judge came up with an idea I had never heard of. The kids stayed in their house and the parents took turns living there. They had a 2 bedroom apt. with locks on the bedroom doors and the one who wasn't with the kids stayed there. The kids didn't have to pack up, leave their friends, etc. This judge was ahead of the times, as this was close to 20 years ago. I think this is a great solution that doesn't punish the child(ren) for the parents' not getting along.

 

[Mama Who]

Thank goodness my parents weren't divorced. My dad and I butted heads all the time when I was a teenager. He is religious and very strict. If I would have had somewhere else to live with less rules, I would have jumped at the chance. As it turns out, I learned a lot from my father who probably protected me more than I will ever know. Why should children of divorce be given the right to choose not to see their noncustodial parent just because they are angry with them?

It's the one power they have. Flipped around, why should parents of divorce have the right to choose not to see their non-custodial children because they wish to move away/start a new family/have tickets to the ballgame/just don't care? But all those things happen and they are within the legal right of the parent. Dad had the right to leave the child behind, now he also has the right to summon him at will and at his convenience?

The child did not choose the bad marriage or the divorce or the distance between their parents. None of this was their fault. How much do they really have to pay for the mistakes of their parents?

 

[Mkrop]

I understand your point, I just think you're wrong. You think that since Dad pays CS, Mom should be responsible for making the kid visit. You don't take into account the feelings of the child or the responsibility of Dad to parent in matters that impact him directly. I think that makes Dad seem like not really a parent or authority figure and does serious harm to his standing. If Dad needs Mom to tell the kid to visit then Mom becomes the sole authority and the sole parent. Do non-custodial dads really want that? Do they want to be a chore mom orders the kid to do? Do they want to be the guys who can only get obedience or cooperation when Mom backs them up?

Is dad a parent or not? And if he's a parent, why can't HE make the kid visit?

And how is this particular dad suppose to do that if no one will answer the darn phone or respond to an email. If dad called you and asked to speak to Johnny/Susie, are you going to answer? Are you going to hand the child the phone? He cant make a child do anything or even work on a happy compromise to it all if no one will return his calls. Maybe dad would understand and be willing to work on it but no one is being the ADULT here and having the CHILD get on the phone.


There are so many times that both of my dear friends kids have not wanted to go to their fathers. But they both realize how important it is, that they are willing to put their own feeling aside and call the dad and say listen Susie has a bday party she really wants to go to, can you pick her up after.? Sometimes dad is willing to do it and other times not, but the key is that BOTH parents speak to one another, and trust me both wishes their ex would internally combust but since that not going to happen, they advocate FOR their child and suck it up and communicate.

 

[bumbershoot]

Good luck to the Dad, it sucks when parents use children to punish each other!

Having lived with a brother who had absolutely zero interest in seeing our dad, I would say that this 11 year old might very well know his own mind and it might not have anything to do with the mother.

Sure, the friend and the stepmom have come in and said things...but they have hearsay. They don't KNOW what's going on with the boy.

It wasn't that my son didn't love his father, he just didn't want to spend the summer in another state, away from his friends, missing camp, little league, yada yada.

Until I went to college, my mom's second husband suddenly divorced her, and she got the opportunity to re-meet and marry her childhood sweetheart who lived in Miami so she had to move the household, my brother and I spent every other weekend with our dad WHEN he deigned to show up for the meet-up. I think there were a few longer stays in there, but not enough for me to remember. I canNOT imagine spending an ENTIRE summer with our father. It would have been torture. And it's not like he had anything set up for when he had to work...he just took us with him (bus driver). OH what fun. Fun for an 8 year old, but NOT so much once you're getting a bit older...


When I went to college, my brother was 14. My mom had absolutely NO choice, she had very little money and would have ended up homeless, and there was the love of her life asking her to marry him...so she moved. From CA to FL.

My dad, who hadn't paid child support routinely throughout our whole lives, and stopped entirely when I was 15 because HE wanted the money to go to a college fund while my mom was still trying to just keep up with our growing feet in shoes, and hadn't shown up for maybe half of our scheduled visitations since they divorced when I was 4...pitched a fit and STILL whines about it. "what your mom did, it's NOW legal, but at that time it wasn't, she took my son away from me" UGH. Be quiet dad. Time with you was spent wtih you whining about "why don't any of my sons want to play baseball", fixing your stupid trucks, and SITTING THERE staring at each other, and those are the times we weren't on the Greyhound bus going back and forth from Santa Cruz to San Francisco...

My brother went cross-country once, when he was 15. He sat in the house the whole time, reading. No he didn't want to interact with our half-brothers, he has NEVER liked children not even when he was a child. No he didn't want to fix the truck. No he didn't want to play catch. No he didn't want to be manipulated yet again by dad complaining about how "your mother" moved cross-country when he'd barely seen him in the last year we lived one HOUR away from him.

That was it. Apart from my wedding, when my brother walked around the corner to hear our dad introducing our oldest half-brother (13 years younger than me, 11 years younger than my full brother) as his "oldest son"...my brother hasn't seen our father since.

Sometimes...it's on the dad's head! Only reason I see the man is because I'm infinitely forgiving and will twist myself into knots to please family, and yes I have daddy issues LOL, and this spring when I let loose on my dad while he was being his usual self at a family reunion, I was accused of "going crazy" by telling him my true, reasonable, normal emotions and reactions to what he was doing.

To have spent the whole summer with that man? Torment.

I can't imagine dragging an 11 year old to the airport and forcing them onto a plane. Would they even let a child who was screaming, flailing, etc. onto the plane?
...........
It sounds like they need another type of plan for the summer. Maybe the kid would like to spend 2 weeks with his dad instead of basically the whole summer. I hope someone is asking the child what the problem is and what he sees as a solution. I do think 11 is old enough to have some input.

I agree with all of that.

... by=god he would be comming to see me.

Ooh, any kid would have tons of fun with a parent with an attitude like that! I can imagine a summer of the father just staring at the kid, glaring at him for having the audacity to not want to visit him all summer...

Support has NOTHING to do with visitation. Nor should it. Support is the money (a portion of the money) that the non-custodial parent would have contributed to the child's upbringing if he or she were still in the home. Visitation is separate from that. If a married couple is dealing with a job loss, where one parent isn't bringing in the money they used to, the other parent doesn't keep the child from that parent...it's not together when a couple is married, and shouldn't be when you're divorced.

The only things the child doesn't quite like about being here are that we have some house rules that he doesn't have at home. Bedtime (he can stay up as late as he wants at home), only one snack between meals (and main meal has to be eaten to our satisfaction first), both older boys must read every day in the summer before playing (and our son is only 5), make their beds, TV time is limited and if I'm outside with the younger boys (we also have an 18 month old) he has to be too. No children in the house if all adults are outside. Or vice versa. I take everyone (or try to) for a walk everyday...sometimes to a nearby park. But his mother tells him, it's "his" summer vacation and he should be able to come and go and do as he pleases.

I definitely don't think you've spent enough time with an 11 year old, with those rules. You only see him on *vacation* times, right? So lighten up.

That "no kids in house/outside when parents are outside/in house" thing is the weirdest thing I've ever heard (OK, within reason there). An 11 year old can sign up for babysitting courses...they can be in charge of other kids...he should certainly be allowed to be apart from the rest of the family.

He should still follow all the other rules and have screen time limited, but kids do need some responsibility and privacy at this age. Also, even though every day doesn't need to be a party, I would consider getting him involved with a rec. program while he's with you so that he has an opportunity to make friends his own age. Our area has inexpensive summer rec programs in all kinds of sports and activities. Good Luck!

Yes.

I'm sorry, I don't spend 10 hours a day outside in the hot sun. I don't think it is a ridiculous requirement for an 11 year old to get outside in the fresh air and get some exercise and not be a hermit all summer. There are tons of kids his age in our neighborhood and he can't make friends sitting in the house and sulking.

11 year olds who are away from their home and friends are allowed to sulk. And it sounds like YOU are the one at home with him, not his father? I actually got along with my stepmom (until I was an adult,that is) but it's not my stepmom that I went to visit, it was my dad. And I actually love my half-sibs and liked spending time with them, but my full brother did NOT enjoy much time with them, especially one-on-one, and I can't imagine my full brother at 11 being forced to go along with everyone like a duckling.

Dads are more than pay checks. The child should not be given a choice about visitation. It is not right for the mom to allow him to do that.

And again, how exactly was this supposed to happen, if the 11 year old (who might still be kid-sized, or might be getting up to adult-sized...11 year old boys vary widely) really really did not want to go? Airlines won't take passengers who absolutely do not want to get on their planes!







I don't think there's a good answer here. Sounds like a problem from the beginning. The ex didn't understand that she would be moved around and didn't like it...but he didn't understand that he would be away for 6 months at a time (since that's a reason he didn't re-up, I'm assuming he didn't realize this), so neither of them understood what he'd signed up for, job-wise. He felt the marriage was over when she moved from one city in FL to another. He then took whatever job he could, though it was all the way up the coast. You guys have hearsay as to what is going on in his mom's house. You are setting waaaaay too restrictive rules, and I don't hear much talk of the time he gets to spend with his dad, just you (the stepmom that posted, not the OP of course). Lots of judging on what is actually quite normal for a pubescent child.

I don't think it's that much of a surprise that he didn't want to come, especially for such a long visit.

The dad and the mom need to talk about this like mature adults. I hope that can happen.

 

[minkydog]

This is true for me but b/c the ex and I live in the same state, he has an easier time doing the fighting when he needs to. I eel bad for this situation, but the mom did not move the child away from the dad. I know there was a job situation, but I have to be honest that I would NEVER move away from my child and I would do anything in my power to keep my ex from moving the child away if he had custody. And if that didn't work, I would move myself. I'd work at McD's if I had to. I know a lot of people do the long distance thing, but I couldn't deal with seeing my child 2 times/year. My ex has wanted to move to Nashville forever, but he doesn't b/c of the kids.

You make a great point. I just do not understand how a parent can just move away and start a new life, leaving their kids 2-3-4 states away? And they have the nerve to complain that they don't see their kids often enough?? It's hard to keep a long-distance romance alive, how much harder must it be when your dad or mom lives 1000 miles away with their new spouse and babies and you only get to see them a couple times a year? Sorry, but I just cannot wrap my head around this. I would move heaven and earth to stay near my kids.

Oh I agree, it can be a hassle for the kids. So is there no good solution for custody when parents divorce? What would you consider ideal in a divorce situation?

I have friends who chose to live within a couple miles of each other after the divorce. The divorce wasn't particularly amicable, but they both saw the importance of keepin both parents in their children's lives so they became amicable parents. Not to the point of spending big holidays with each other, but at least the kids get to see them and the parents get to participate in their daily lives. They take turns going to parent-teacher conferences, keeping the kids when they're sick, and yes, being the bad guy. I really have a lot of respect for them for doing it this way. It would have been very easy for the dad to just move away, but he refused. He is very committed to remaining in his kids' lives.

 

[Mama Who]

And how is this particular dad suppose to do that if no one will answer the darn phone or respond to an email. Well, if I couldn't get a hold of my kid I'd be on a plane. If dad called you and asked to speak to Johnny/Susie, are you going to answer? Are you going to hand the child the phone? He cant make a child do anything or even work on a happy compromise to it all if no one will return his calls. Maybe dad would understand and be willing to work on it but no one is being the ADULT here and having the CHILD get on the phone.In the OP's case, yes, as I've said, Mom should be getting the kid on the phone. My objection is to the generalization that it's Mom's job to make the kid go see Dad. I'd absolutely make my kid get on his phone and tell his Dad to pound sand his own self if that was his inclination. One of the rules of him having a cell phone is that he MUST answer calls from me, DH or his father. I pay, I make the rule. It dramatically decreases the amount I have to speak to the man.


There are so many times that both of my dear friends kids have not wanted to go to their fathers. But they both realize how important it is, that they are willing to put their own feeling aside and call the dad and say listen Susie has a bday party she really wants to go to, can you pick her up after.? Sometimes dad is willing to do it and other times not, but the key is that BOTH parents speak to one another, and trust me both wishes their ex would internally combust but since that not going to happen, they advocate FOR their child and suck it up and communicate.

At 11 my kid was old enough to have some self-determination. He could call Dad himself and negotiate a change in pick up or a reschedule of the visit. I see no reason for contentious parents to deal with each other in such a situation. Dad is a parent, right? Why does he need Mom for this? Mom should be advocating for... what, exactly? The parental advocacy needed is already covered. Dad is fully capable of advocating for his child's best interests.

FWIW, this thread prompted me to have an interesting conversation with my 13 year old. He's of the opinion that his relationship with his father has improved since I got out of the middle. It was hard at first, he says, but it's much better now. I have noticed that he's gone from referring to the man as "Peter" or "My biological father" to referring to him as "my father" or "my dad."

 

[angierae]

I think by 11 a kid might not want to spend a whole 10-12 whatever weeks out of state in the summer with their NCP. I also think that five minutes before he was about to get on a plane is NOT the time to drop the bomb on the NCP. If my kid waited until that point ot announce s/he didn't want to go to Dad's house for the summer, I'd say "Too bad, we're here now, we can talk about next summer."

But I don't think it's unreasonable for a kid to not want to be away that long. I don't blame Dad for moving away - the economy sucks and unfortunately we have to do what we have to do to support ourselves. There isn't always a job in the town or state you'd like to be in.

So I feel for the kid, but he should have brought this up to mom before then, and if he did, mom should have talked to Dad about it.

Also, I do think that the "he has to be outside when stepmom and the younger sibs are outside" rule is a bit stifling for an 11 year old and might be contributing to why he doesn't want to go. Also "one snack between meals if he ate satisfactorily?" A five year old might ruin his dinner by eating too much between meals but an 11 year old boy is heading into puberty and he might honestly be HUNGRY.