Need advice... custody problems in Florida

[fireflymedic]

First of all let me fix your post (teacher in me)


This thread is starting to p## me off. It does not matter if the kids *kid* wants to go, the father is keeping up his end of the bargen *bargain* paying child saport *support* every month *and* he has a court order saying his son will see him only one time a year by=god *take out the equal sign* he would be comming *coming* to see me. yes *Y* we could talk about how long he stays but I'v *I've* paid for the plain *plane* ticket and moma *momma* dont *doesn't* put him on the plane!

After that I can say that I am divorced, I have 3 kids, only one who wants to see his dad but I can tell you the judge told the kids and both my ex and myself that the KIDS make the decision on what they want to do. My wants/my ex's wants don't matter...........the kids and their decisions are the only thing we take into consideration. My kids are almost adults except my youngest who is almost 13 but in our agreement the kids make the decisions and we as ADULTS deal with their decisions. Making them go is NOT an option and one we know we don't have to deal with thanks to the judge!!!

Obviously you either are not divorced, don't have a child or don't have a child old enough to know you do NOT force them to go see a parent they don't want to go see. If you are a parent and your child doesn't want to leave and come and see you....it's time to put on your big boy/girl panties and deal with it. Make arrangements to see them how THEY want you to see them.

I am thankful my ex and I live in the same city/town/neighborhood and it's a non issue. If either of us were to move both of us have enough respect for our kids to let THEM decide what they want to do at the ages they are. I cannot imagine FORCING my child to go see their dad if they didn't want to and my ex feels the same way. I think the parents need to grow up and realize it isn't about them anymore.

I know there are more women than men hear so I never thought I would win a vote, but the poster did ask for help on how to get the dad and boy together, not what alot of you are saying to bad the boy does not want to go thats it.

I take it if the child does not want to go back to school this sept. that will be OK too, cant make a child do something they dont want to.

(ya and I dont need any one trying to teach me how to spell or proper grammer the school system (teachers) had 12 years and they couldnt do it, I doubt you can do it in one post) If I'm getting my thoughts across to you guess I accomplished what I was trying to do. If you are completly ignorant of what i'm trying to say just say that and I will use differnt words

 

[Tuffcookie]

It sounds like a modification to the visitation order might be in order. Now that your best friend's husbands son is 11 I can certainly understand him not wanting to spend his entire summer out of state, away from his friends. It has nothing to do with his relationship with his father and everything to do with his own personal, social life.

TC

 

[ClarabelleCowFan]

Been there done that with DH's ex. We learned that there is absolutely nothing you can do. The courts can issue a contempt order but that means nothing in the real world and the ex won't get any type of punishment for not sending the child. It will cost your friend thousands in legal fees for an attorney just to take this to court and in the long run it will do NO good.

The custodial parent has all the power in this situation. If the non-custodial parent tried not to return a child after visitation then all heck would break loose.

DH traveled 1500 miles to see his kids and the ex refused to let him see them. She has denied visitation about a dozen times and all she was told by the judge when we took her to court was "not to do that again". Guess what - it's summer and she has changed their visitation dates SEVEN times so far even though it is DH that is supposed to set the dates. At this point DH said he doubts we will see the kids at all this summer and there is not a thing we can do about it.

OP - I feel for your friend. He does need an attorney in FL to advise him of his rights and the course of action he should take. Good luck to him. Tell him to keep all of his phone records showing his attempted contact to the ex and the son as well.

 

[luvmythree]

I know there are more women than men hear so I never thought I would win a vote, but the poster did ask for help on how to get the dad and boy together, not what alot of you are saying to bad the boy does not want to go thats it.

I take it if the child does not want to go back to school this sept. that will be OK too, cant make a child do something they dont want to.

(ya and I dont need any one trying to teach me how to spell or proper grammer the school system (teachers) had 12 years and they couldnt do it, I doubt you can do it in one post) If I'm getting my thoughts across to you guess I accomplished what I was trying to do. If you are completly ignorant of what i'm trying to say just say that and I will use differnt words

It's not about winning a vote and if you think it is then I am sorry for you!!! It's about doing what a CHILD wants to do and if the parent can't understand that, they are really childish! I would NEVER make my child come and see me nor would I make my child go see their dad if they didn't want to go and thankfully, my ex feels the same way I do. I have a foster child as well and I deal with this issue constantly.....it's sad to me!

As for making kids go to school it's a LAW and one many people benefit from (sorry if you didn't) but honestly going to visit a parent is NOT a law written in stone unlike education. The parent may not like it but it is what it is.

I know my kids respect both my ex and myself for letting THEM make a decision of when they want to go and when they don't. I cannot imagine making my kids leave if they really don't want to go. To me it's stupid.

And as of 2 weeks ago I am no longer a teacher. I cannot deal with what education has become. I am sad to leave the children I taught but, I am not sad to leave the institution. I loved most of my job in education but....I love my job in the medical field more these days!

 

[MichelleVW]

It sounds like a modification to the visitation order might be in order. Now that your best friend's husbands son is 11 I can certainly understand him not wanting to spend his entire summer out of state, away from his friends. It has nothing to do with his relationship with his father and everything to do with his own personal, social life.

TC

Exactly, my girls hated going away all summer to see their dad. They liked seeing their dad, but not missing the entire summer at home.

 

[horseshowmom]

I used to work for a lawyer that did almost exclusively divorce/custody work and this is one of those things that comes up frequently, especially as children start to get older and involved with friends and activities.

The attorney I worked for would first recommend that the parents and the child try to work out a reasonable compromise. Since the child is 11 this is going to become an issue every year going forward, especially once the child starts working/driving and becoming more independent.

I agree. It's very common (and unfortunately, understandable) for things to play out that way.

The problem that I see here is that nobody bothered to really contact the dad - a text message doesn't cut it. He's the child's father, he bought a plane ticket, and the child just doesn't get on the plane. What kind of way is that to treat a responsible non-custodial parent. Talk about being made to feel totally unimportant...

The child is 11 so the mother should have been on the phone discussing the issue with the dad prior to plane time. The fact that she handled it this way makes the whole thing suspect in my opinion.

I can understand the child not wanting to go, but I would get on the phone as well to explain things. I would also not have my child cut off contact after that just because they did not want to go. I am sympathetic to the child but more of an explanation is owed the father by both child and the mother. It is called parenting!

Been there done that with DH's ex. We learned that there is absolutely nothing you can do. The courts can issue a contempt order but that means nothing in the real world and the ex won't get any type of punishment for not sending the child. It will cost your friend thousands in legal fees for an attorney just to take this to court and in the long run it will do NO good.

The custodial parent has all the power in this situation. If the non-custodial parent tried not to return a child after visitation then all heck would break loose.

Sadly, I think you're 100% correct.

 

[smitch425]

Something seems off here... if I had a child that was under the care of someone else and I was supposed to currently be with them, I would want to talk to the child immediately, as it seems the father has tried to do. Since the mother is not making any effort to contact the father, who's to say that the child is the one who really made the decision not to go? The mother could have easily taken the child's phone and sent that text. Seems fishy to me. I would be on the phone with every possible office that could even have the slightest chance of knowing how to resolve the issue.

OP, good luck to your friend. Please let us know how it all gets resolved.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Something seems off here... if I had a child that was under the care of someone else and I was supposed to currently be with them, I would want to talk to the child immediately, as it seems the father has tried to do. Since the mother is not making any effort to contact the father, who's to say that the child is the one who really made the decision not to go? The mother could have easily taken the child's phone and sent that text. Seems fishy to me. I would be on the phone with every possible office that could even have the slightest chance of knowing how to resolve the issue.

OP, good luck to your friend. Please let us know how it all gets resolved.

Smitch has put his/her finger on what has been bothering me about this. My DSIL's parents were foster parents for many years. You know how you hear on the news about a child who's been horribly abused and is now in foster care in an undisclosed location? Well, those foster parents are handpicked for the job. Years ago, DSIL's parents were those sort of foster parents and they got a LOT of really bad abused kids.

There was one case that made headlines in our neck of the woods. The parents divorced, Dad took a job somewhere else. He had his girls in the summer and on holidays. He saw his daughters at Christmas, spent a week with them, everything was good. After Christmas Momma's boyfriend moved in. In early February, one daughter was dead, the other one was covered in cigarette burns (even between her toes and to the soles of her feet and on her face) and had a lot of bruising and old welts and uhm. Yeah. Dad had been put off by Mom for a while from talking to his daughters.

So for me, thinking about that, if Mom won't return Dad's calls and he's tried to e-mail her, to text her, has tried to call people they might know in common and find out what's going on, I'd call the cops or Child Services and ask please, please, please could you do a wellness check on my kid? Explain he was supposed to visit, he's only 11 and the only thing you've heard is on the day the boy was supposed to visit you got a text from his phone.

You've tried hard to get into contact with your son, but haven't been able to and with all that goes on in this world, you don't want to jump to any nasty conclusions, but you just want to make sure the kid is okay, nothing else; even say you know you're probably being all helicoptery, but this is your kid you haven't seen and you just want to know your kid is safe and fine.

If the kid is fine and safe, then move forward with calling a lawyer in Florida and find out what your options are. But please, this just doesn't pass the sniff test to me. I would be worried; it's probably colored by years of teaching and seeing teenagers tossed out like garbage because they were a nuisance to the new boyfriend, but I would be worried.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I can completely understand an 11 year old boy not wanting to go away for the whole summer, but this simply isn't the way to handle it. The child and the mother have presumably known this visitation was coming for a long time, and had plenty of time to try and negotiate something alternative. They needed to do that before the tickets were purchased, and likely other plans were made. The kid could well be enrolled in camp in the Dad's area, or have other plans made that are contingent on him coming.

It seems like one of two things happened. One is that mom has known for a long time that he didn't want to go, and didn't let Dad know, that's not OK. The other is that this was a last minute decision on the part of the kid. In that case, I think he should have been made to go. My 11 year old wouldn't get to suddenly decide he's not going on a vacation I paid for, or to a sleepover camp I've paid for. He has plenty of input in advance, but he can't simply change his mind. In my opinion this is the same thing. I'd say "We can talk to you dad about you coming back early, but you're going".

Finally, if something does come up (let's say kid breaks his leg and genuinely can't go), then the mom needs to arrange it so he can at least talk to Dad. In this case Dad deserves the right to hear from the kid's own mouth what his hesitation is.

 

[dallastxcpa]

OP: Here is a Florida statute that may help your friend:

Chapter 787
KIDNAPPING; FALSE IMPRISONMENT; LURING OR ENTICING A CHILD; CUSTODY OFFENSES View Entire Chapter

787.03 Interference with custody.—(1) Whoever, without lawful authority, knowingly or recklessly takes or entices, or aids, abets, hires, or otherwise procures another to take or entice, any minor or any incompetent person from the custody of the minor’s or incompetent person’s parent, his or her guardian, a public agency having the lawful charge of the minor or incompetent person, or any other lawful custodian commits the offense of interference with custody and commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Here is the link:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0787/Sections/0787.03.html

Here in Texas the Attorney General takes this very seriously. No parent has the right to withhold visitation from the other. I hope for your friends sake that the Florida Attorney General is just as serious about it.

 

[aprilgail2]

It sounds like a modification to the visitation order might be in order. Now that your best friend's husbands son is 11 I can certainly understand him not wanting to spend his entire summer out of state, away from his friends. It has nothing to do with his relationship with his father and everything to do with his own personal, social life.

TC

I used to work for a lawyer that did almost exclusively divorce/custody work and this is one of those things that comes up frequently, especially as children start to get older and involved with friends and activities.

The attorney I worked for would first recommend that the parents and the child try to work out a reasonable compromise. Since the child is 11 this is going to become an issue every year going forward, especially once the child starts working/driving and becoming more independent.

.

My friend had this problem when his kids became about 11- and he only got them for the weekends but after going to school all week they wanted to spend the weekends relaxing and hanging out with their friends, not dad. He and the ex worked it out so he got them 2 days a week after school instead of the weekends and the kids were much happier with that and dad still got to see them. But then mom decided to move out of state against the divorce agreement and he ended up with full custody of the kids in the end.
If the child in the OP's post really does not want to go away to see his dad all summer long I don't know how they expect anyone to get an 11 year old on a plane that really doesn't want to go--drag them and lock them into the seat?? And I certainly would not want to be the parent that has to spend the whole summer with a child that didn't want to be there.

 

[torinsmom]

I have a feeling we're not getting anywhere near the whole story. The OP has not come back to comment, and she is not even personally involved. This is her friend's husband's child. I have a hard time believing that the child not getting on the plane was the first thing he heard of the problem. We all know Dr. Phil's saying "No matter how flat you make a pancake, it always has two sides."

We don't know how much communication there was before the planned departure date. Maybe mom told dad the son was fighting her about going weeks before, and the dad just said tough or yelled and screamed about it. We also don't know if the dad has been calling 6 times a day since that time or if he has been waiting for them to call him. The post just said there has been no communication for a week now. If he is repeatedly calling/texting/emailing and getting no answer, he should definitely call the police and have them go and check to make sure things are okay. When they call him back to report, he could ask them what recourse he has in getting visitation time with his child, given the court order.

I am sure there are plenty of instances where a pre-teen/teen does not want to leave there home/friends to spend an extended time with their NCP. It really is not a matter of not loving their NCP, it is about being a pre-teen/teen. Luckily, my ex understands that DS16 would like to spend some of his weekend at home. Instead of getting him Friday afternoon, I take DS over Saturday morning early. That gives him wind down time after school and a night with friends if he wants. Sometimes he even asks his dad if he can skip a visit b/c he has something else he wants to do(concert or party).

 

[livie1205]

OP: Here is a Florida statute that may help your friend:

Chapter 787
KIDNAPPING; FALSE IMPRISONMENT; LURING OR ENTICING A CHILD; CUSTODY OFFENSES View Entire Chapter

787.03 Interference with custody.—(1) Whoever, without lawful authority, knowingly or recklessly takes or entices, or aids, abets, hires, or otherwise procures another to take or entice, any minor or any incompetent person from the custody of the minor’s or incompetent person’s parent, his or her guardian, a public agency having the lawful charge of the minor or incompetent person, or any other lawful custodian commits the offense of interference with custody and commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Here is the link:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0787/Sections/0787.03.html

Here in Texas the Attorney General takes this very seriously. No parent has the right to withhold visitation from the other. I hope for your friends sake that the Florida Attorney General is just as serious about it.

This will NOT work for a NCP in Fl. He will have to go back to court (in Fl) to get it worked out...no way,no how will LE get involved UNLESS it is a NCP taking the child from the CP who has full custody,my ex was almost arrested for that when he tried to pick up my son from his school and he has NO custody.My dh is a cop in fl and he has to tell many many people that they had to go through the court.The dad should just file for contempt in moms county (he does not need a atty for this,very easy hearing) and go from there.She will not be arrested but the judge will tell her to follow the order or make them change it.I DID withhold visitation from my ex and was not charged with anything,i went to court and won.There could be reasons we do not know for child not wanting to go,we do not have the whole story.

 

[CinderellasSister]

Thanks everyone for your replies. My friend doesn't have an account but has read all the replies and asked me to put this:

My husband has been divorced since his son was two. We live in NJ and the child is in FL. I met him over a year after his divorce. A few months after the divorce was the first time his ex-wife refused visitation. Forcing the judge to send sheriffs with my husband to pick up the child. In 2006 after several more instances of not following the visitation order, the judge attached the visitation orders for parents living more than 280 miles apart.. This was to protect the relationship between parents and children when school calendars did not permit more frequent extended visits. My husband only sees his son for a week at spring break, during the summer, every other thanksgiving and a week at christmas. Originally, he asked his ex for 4 weeks (out of 12 weeks that his son's district gets for summer) to visit. I do not think that is outrageous for a father to ask to see a son that he loves and misses. His ex refused and required yet another court appearance. Since I met him we have put out over 10,000 in court and attorney fees for visitation alone. Because of her history of "frustration of visitation" and contempt of court, the judge ordered a strict adherence to the 280 mile rule guideline. He said it was important to to keep their relationship intact. You all must understand as well, that my husband attempts to contact his son several times a week via phone and email and may actually talk to him once a month. There is a legal term for this called parental alienation syndrome. This is not about "what the child wants." How would any of you feel if you were kept from your child?

Yes, there are two sides to a story, I lost my job during my maternity leave last year and my husband lost his early this year and has JUST this month returned to work. Instead of immediately calling the court and having child support reduced we stupidly put it on a credit card every other week. So now, my husband has no vacation or personal days and we have no savings, no emergency funds, no recourse...

One time in the past we tried one trip of my husband going to visit his son.. Plane ticket, hotel (with a separate bedroom because the child "needs privacy"), 3 meals per day and some kind of entertainment daily... is astronomical! We can't afford that. Who can? Even for a weekend which is what he did ended up costing over $2000.

There are also the false expectations put into the child by his mother, "your father should be taking you to Disney World," "why aren't you going to Hershey Park." The list goes on and on. She has the boy believing that visits here should be a constant week to week destination vacation. And then fills his head with what he is missing at home. Is this how a mother treats her own son?

Our lawyer DID tell us the "age of consent" in florida is 16. A child cannot refuse visitation until then. The problem is, we have no way to fight and she knows it. If a father tried this, he'd be in jail.

 

[Tuffcookie]

Well there are 2 possible solutions.

#1 File contempt charges against mom.

#2 Relocate to FL.

TC

 

[ClarabelleCowFan]

OP - tell your friend to get as much documentation as they can via phone records where they can show how many times that the Dad called and how many times he actually got to talk to his son. You will need that if you go to court to prove the parental alienation. Also write down everything in regards to any contact with the ex regarding communication (or lack of) or visitation that has gone against the court order. Arm yourself with information. There have been cases where the judge has reversed custody based on the actions of the current custodial parent.

Also tell your friend that they are not alone. I swear I could have written every single word of the reply you just posted - the denial of visitation, the talking up what they will miss, the expectations of constant entertainment, etc... If your friend wants a kindred spirit to vent to that has been there, done that and is still going through it then please PM me. Good luck to them. Don't give up.

 

[tomthebarncat]

wow, that is something when a parent holds their child emotionally hostage. You divorce spouses not children and this ex sounds like a major witch! Good luck, when the boy is older, he will see what has happened and this will cause mom problems. This is a great example of why I never dated divorced men who had kids, I did not want to have to deal with a nasty ex wife, as my tolerance for crap is not so high!

 

[snarlingcoyote]

OP - tell your friend to get as much documentation as they can via phone records where they can show how many times that the Dad called and how many times he actually got to talk to his son. You will need that if you go to court to prove the parental alienation. Also write down everything in regards to any contact with the ex regarding communication (or lack of) or visitation that has gone against the court order. Arm yourself with information. There have been cases where the judge has reversed custody based on the actions of the current custodial parent.

Also tell your friend that they are not alone. I swear I could have written every single word of the reply you just posted - the denial of visitation, the talking up what they will miss, the expectations of constant entertainment, etc... If your friend wants a kindred spirit to vent to that has been there, done that and is still going through it then please PM me. Good luck to them. Don't give up.

This is exactly what OP and her friend need to do. It amazes me how many blankety-blank-blank women do this to their kids' fathers when there are sooo many women out there who would trade places with them in a heartbeat because their child's father is a total deadbeat blankety who doesn't pay child support, doesn't visit, doesn't call. . .

And yeah, I've seen it happen several times, some in my own family, this will backfire on the momma. One of my dear nieces's momma was a total rhymes-with-witch. Accused my DB of all sorts of heinous things, tried to keep him from seeing her. Today, my niece works for her daddy and spends almost all her time with him. She grew up and could see for herself what had been going on.

 

[JCJRSmith]

wow, that is something when a parent holds their child emotionally hostage. You divorce spouses not children and this ex sounds like a major witch! Good luck, when the boy is older, he will see what has happened and this will cause mom problems. This is a great example of why I never dated divorced men who had kids, I did not want to have to deal with a nasty ex wife, as my tolerance for crap is not so high!

Sad, isn't it? This is precisely what my ex did to me. She cheated on me while I was at sea and left me for the the new "love of her life." He cheated on her after the divorce was finalized. I would call my daughter - ex would not let her come to the phone or tell me "she doesn't want to talk right now." She would cancel visitations at the last minute, then tell my daughter I did it. Letters I wrote went undelivered. All the while, she and her parents fed my dauther a steady diet of lies about what a horrible person I was, that I didn't love her, etc.

Now, she has kids of her own and we have a great relationship. DD holds up her own mother as a perfect example of what not to do. She figured out what her my ex was doing over the years. We missed out on so much, be we are making up for it now.

 

[torinsmom]

Well, I posted this morning and it went poof! somehow.

To the OP's friend: I am sorry for the way things are going. I really don't know what advice to give you and your DH. Custody/visitation issues get so much more difficult when parents live far apart. I am assuming there is no way for you guys to move closer?

I would just document all attempts at communication, when you call and how long(to show that you did not reach anyone), emails and the replies(or lack of them). I would also contact the ex's parents if you have that info. Have your DH be careful what he says when he calls/emails, as the ex may try to bait him into saying things she can use against him.

Did your DH see his son over spring break? How was that visit? If mom is poisoning him against his dad, that is horrible! I can't imagine doing that to a child. My ex might not be the best parent in the world, but as my mom says(her dad was an abusive alcoholic), "He was my dad and I couldn't go and order another one from the catalog". My ex is the only dad my son has and I would never interfere with him seeing his son. As I said in my earlier post, there are times he doesn't want to go, but I let him work that out with his dad.