*~* Muggles, Welcome to the Burrow! *~*

[piglet too]

Even though I may not have much to add, I am loving this thread. I spend a lot of time shaking my head in agreement, and even "wow! never thought of that."

 

[leighe]

Even though I may not have much to add, I am loving this thread. I spend a lot of time shaking my head in agreement, and even "wow! never thought of that."

I totally agree! I keep thinking, "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!"

 

[CobraBubbles]

I agree. Lily and Snape had some kind of relationship, but I just don't buy the romantic angle. I just can't see a tale of "the one who got away" meshing with Snape's personality. Very out of character for him.

I don't think that it was a romance...so to speak. More of a crush, or friendship (maybe only onesided at that). Maybe she was the only one who wasn't really mean to him, and he sort of latched on.

But everyone loves. I mean, the whole reason that some people become so mean and angry and bitter is because they aren't really loved back. JKR said love is a big theme, so I gotta figure that love factors into Snape's redemptive qualities.

 

[poohbear919]

Well I guess my thoughts on Snape and Lily Potter are this - there was some connection for the two... That's obvious from Snapes memory that we witnessed. Was it love on his part? IMHO - probably not... Rowlings' just isn't writing him as being the one to love someone - he doesn't seem to let himself become so vulnerable as feel that love for someone else. Was there someone who loved him? Probably yes. My question is more rather could the relationship he had with Lily eventually been one of mutual respect for one another? Perhaps Snape owed Lily something and that's why he's doing for Harry what he is...

I've read that James and Lily's job(s) will possibly play a role in what had happened. Perhaps Lily was an auror and had the chance to capture Snape during his *Death Eater years*... Though because of a mutual respect and understanding of one another from years before Lily chose to let him *get away*, rather than going for the capture - on the condition that he affiliate himself to the side of the original Order of the Phoenix... By doing this Lily could have essentially saved his life, thereby leaving Snape to owe her a debt. He didn't follow through when he revealed the prophesy to Voldemort, thereby causing Lily and James death. In his own mind he's now paying that debt to Lily by protecting Harry.

Maybe it could be tied in that he was indeed at Godric's Hollow on the evening of their deaths and Lily was looking into his eyes at the moment of her death - that's why it's somewhat haunting to him the Harry has Lily's eyes and that's able to override the fact that he looks exactly like James!

I'm just theorizing here as I type... I'm sure I've missed something in one of the books that would disspell all I've just mentioned - please feel free to point out the obvious (or not so) things I might have missed!

 

[va32h]

Well I guess my thoughts on Snape and Lily Potter are this - there was some connection for the two... That's obvious from Snapes memory that we witnessed. Was it love on his part? IMHO - probably not... Rowlings' just isn't writing him as being the one to love someone - he doesn't seem to let himself become so vulnerable as feel that love for someone else. Was there someone who loved him? Probably yes. My question is more rather could the relationship he had with Lily eventually been one of mutual respect for one another? Perhaps Snape owed Lily something and that's why he's doing for Harry what he is...

I've read that James and Lily's job(s) will possibly play a role in what had happened. Perhaps Lily was an auror and had the chance to capture Snape during his *Death Eater years*... Though because of a mutual respect and understanding of one another from years before Lily chose to let him *get away*, rather than going for the capture - on the condition that he affiliate himself to the side of the original Order of the Phoenix... By doing this Lily could have essentially saved his life, thereby leaving Snape to owe her a debt. He didn't follow through when he revealed the prophesy to Voldemort, thereby causing Lily and James death. In his own mind he's now paying that debt to Lily by protecting Harry.

Maybe it could be tied in that he was indeed at Godric's Hollow on the evening of their deaths and Lily was looking into his eyes at the moment of her death - that's why it's somewhat haunting to him the Harry has Lily's eyes and that's able to override the fact that he looks exactly like James!

I'm just theorizing here as I type... I'm sure I've missed something in one of the books that would disspell all I've just mentioned - please feel free to point out the obvious (or not so) things I might have missed!

I can't think of anything from the books that would outright disspell this theory. We don't know what Lily's job was, so Auror is as good a guess as any.

The only thing I can think of is that Lily was 21 or 22 when she died, and I don't know if she would have had time to complete Auror training and start working as one, including the time off she would have taken to have Harry - assuming witches need maternity leave!

There is a theory that Lily worked in the Dept. of Mysteries, too. But that's really just a guess.

It would have been nice for the readers if Harry had ever expressed any curiosity about his parents. Why wouldn't he have asked things like; what were their jobs, where did they live before they went into hiding, why were they so rich, what were the three times they defied Voldemort, as the prophecy says? He says at the end of HBP that they are buried at Godric's Hollow - how does he know that?

 

[N&B'smom]

I totally agree! I keep thinking, "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!"

Me too! There's nothing I can come up with that hasn't already been said 27 different ways. What a great thread!!

And I laughed so hard about the Claire Danes comment.

Shelby

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

I can't think of anything from the books that would outright disspell this theory. We don't know what Lily's job was, so Auror is as good a guess as any.

The only thing I can think of is that Lily was 21 or 22 when she died, and I don't know if she would have had time to complete Auror training and start working as one, including the time off she would have taken to have Harry - assuming witches need maternity leave!

There is a theory that Lily worked in the Dept. of Mysteries, too. But that's really just a guess.

It would have been nice for the readers if Harry had ever expressed any curiosity about his parents. Why wouldn't he have asked things like; what were their jobs, where did they live before they went into hiding, why were they so rich, what were the three times they defied Voldemort, as the prophecy says? He says at the end of HBP that they are buried at Godric's Hollow - how does he know that?

As far as Harry not asking questions...maybe he has. But perhaps JKR didn't feel these details were necessary for us as readers to know. And if they are relevent we still have time to find out in Book 7.

I've heard the theory that Lily worked in the Department of Mysteries. They are called "unspeakables" right? I could see this being true but at the same time I wonder why we wouldn't know by now. That could definitely be a reason why Voldemort went after Lily and James personally. If she was involved in the department of mysteries, it's very possible she was in a position to "defy the dark lord three times." Because when you think about it, what she did for a living had to have been VERY important if Voldemort himself wanted to kill her. It wasn't just the fact that she was in the Order because there are a lot of other Order members who have not come face to face with Voldemort. And also, she defied him three times BEFORE Voldemort even found out about the prophecy. Or maybe the night she was killed was the third time?

Also, I've wondered about Voldemort giving Lily the chance to live. In the flashbacks we get of that night, Voldemort kills James outright, not even giving him a chance. But when he gets to Harry's room he tells Lily to move aside. He doesn't kill her right away, he gives her a chance to leave. But then she sacrifices herself for Harry and we know the rest. But why did he originally give her the choice to walk away? Did Snape have something to do with it? I think there's so much more to that night than we know so far and I am very interested to find out what it is.

 

[CobraBubbles]

Random thought:

In book 1, Snape asks Harry 3 questions...none of which Harry can answer, of course.

Snape's answer:

"For your information, Potter,
asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as
the Draught of Living Death. A bezoar is a stone taken from the stomach
of a goat and it will save you from most poisons. As for monkshood and
wolfsbane, they are the same plant, which also goes by the name of
aconite.

Anyhow. I was thinking. Two of the answers have been important in the story. Lupin was saved from his condition by the Wolfsbane, and obviously Ron was saved by the bezoar by giving the info.

Will the Draught of the Living Death be any significance? Sure, Harry made one with the help of the HBP, but that's not super significant other than showing us that Snape knew how to make it well, even when he was young.

Of course, the only thing I could think of would be an explaination that DD's not really dead, but of course, I'm not even sure if he's not. I always wondered if it had significance though. He did drink a mysterious drink before he died after all...just a point to ponder.

 

[UnderTheMistletoe]

a suggestion that we put the question of the moment in the first post, i'm not seeing the topic of the moment in its full form in the title.

Just a suggestion so everyone can know exactly what we are talking about at the time.

This is tough because it seems to wander a lot. Which is good! But, becuase it wanders, it's very difficult to nail down a specific question. At the moment, you will see the thread topic reads, "Snape it seems," because that's a large amount of the discussion and major theme. I'll try as best I can, but no guarentees. You can find the question prompts in the previous posts.

What I mean is that Harry could extract his own memory from his own head and look at it using Dumbledore's Pensieve. I assume that the Pensieve is not always full of Dumbledore's memories. It's a like a DVD player that plays whatever is put into it. Dumbledore loaned it to Snape, after all, so it's obvious that someone other than Dumbledore can use it.

Harry just needs to learn the magic required to remove a memory from his head.

I thought Snape had his own Pensieve. I don't know if I got that from an interview, inference, or another HP board.

I was sort of thinking along those lines too. JKR puts a lot of emphasis on the non-verbal spells in HBP. I was wondering if that's why Dumbledore insisted on getting to Snape. They had devised a plan that would enable Snape to perhaps use a non-verbal spell to counteract the Avada Kedavra curse? Perhaps that's why Hagrid overhead Snape & DD arguing. Maybe what they were planning to do was extremley risky or hadn't been tried before? Remember when Snape said in his little speech on the first day of class that "your defenses must therefore be as flexible and inventive as the arts you seek to undo". When DD spoke to Draco at the end he said that they had been aware all along of what Draco was up to so that would make you think that they had a plan to deal with Draco if tried to kill DD. It seemed that Snape didn't even give Draco a chance to do it...and DD was pleading with Snape. Snape could've given Draco the opportunity but he didn't. And if Snape was really loyal to LV, why didn't he capture HP and take him back to LV?

I am pretty sure, in the words of JKR, we were told that DD is dead and to get on with the grieving process. Someone noted that DD was said to have flown back into the air, which some would argue no one else has done under the AK. I think she was just detailing the death becuase DD is such a beloved and integral character.

OT..again. But in the sig pic of the Weasley twins of auroraborealis, the twin on the right.....doesnt that look like Claire Danes?

Sorry.....back to your regular programming....

You are soo right! I knew there was something, but just couldn't put my finger on it.

Totally OT- My brother is deploying to Iraq in the next several weeks. If you could please keep him (and out millions of military families) in your thoughts, prayers, whatever, we would be very, very grateful.

 

[va32h]

Random thought:

In book 1, Snape asks Harry 3 questions...none of which Harry can answer, of course.

Snape's answer:



Anyhow. I was thinking. Two of the answers have been important in the story. Lupin was saved from his condition by the Wolfsbane, and obviously Ron was saved by the bezoar by giving the info.

Will the Draught of the Living Death be any significance? Sure, Harry made one with the help of the HBP, but that's not super significant other than showing us that Snape knew how to make it well, even when he was young.

Of course, the only thing I could think of would be an explaination that DD's not really dead, but of course, I'm not even sure if he's not. I always wondered if it had significance though. He did drink a mysterious drink before he died after all...just a point to ponder.

Well, Dumbledore is really dead, because JK Rowling said so in an interview. There is a website, www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com that was devoted to various ways he couldn't be dead, and she specifically mentioned being sorry to disappoint the founder of that site (who, I believe, still insists that Dumbledore is not dead). But he really is.

And even if she hadn't said it, I would believe Dumbledore is dead because, well because JKR isn't cruel that way. She has had characters that were presumed dead turn out to be alive, but only characters that died offscreen. She hasn't outright lied to her audience. If we the reader saw somebody die (Cedric, Barty Crouch Sr., Sirius, Dumbledore) they are dead.

Now, could there still be a presumed dead person who turns up alive in Deathly Hallows? Absolutely. I would love for it to be Regulus Black - presuming he is RAB (which I do), that would be very convenient! I am trying to think of other characters that we think are dead, but didn't actually see die (besides the obvious, Harry's parents, whom we already know can't come back).

I thought Snape had his own Pensieve. I don't know if I got that from an interview, inference, or another HP board.

Our copy of OoTP literally fell apart and I haven't replaced it, but my recollection is that when Harry has his first Occlumency lesson, he notes that it is Dumbledore's pensieve. Of course, Harry could be wrong, perhaps they all look the same.

 

[poohbear919]

I've heard the theory that Lily worked in the Department of Mysteries. They are called "unspeakables" right? I could see this being true but at the same time I wonder why we wouldn't know by now. That could definitely be a reason why Voldemort went after Lily and James personally. If she was involved in the department of mysteries, it's very possible she was in a position to "defy the dark lord three times." Because when you think about it, what she did for a living had to have been VERY important if Voldemort himself wanted to kill her. It wasn't just the fact that she was in the Order because there are a lot of other Order members who have not come face to face with Voldemort. And also, she defied him three times BEFORE Voldemort even found out about the prophecy. Or maybe the night she was killed was the third time?

Also, I've wondered about Voldemort giving Lily the chance to live. In the flashbacks we get of that night, Voldemort kills James outright, not even giving him a chance. But when he gets to Harry's room he tells Lily to move aside. He doesn't kill her right away, he gives her a chance to leave. But then she sacrifices herself for Harry and we know the rest. But why did he originally give her the choice to walk away? Did Snape have something to do with it? I think there's so much more to that night than we know so far and I am very interested to find out what it is.

Interesting and well put! I forgot about the "unspeakables!" I can't wait to find out what will happen - but I love speculating until then!

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

Interesting and well put! I forgot about the "unspeakables!" I can't wait to find out what will happen - but I love speculating until then!

Thanks! And I know how you feel, it's a lot of fun to speculate about all the different theories. Especially since we don't know any details for certain. Makes the time pass quicker, that's for sure

 

[holycow]

I just read all 24 pages.

You've all insired me to read the books again.

Thanks for the great thoughts.
Holycow

 

[CobraBubbles]

I just read all 24 pages.

You've all insired me to read the books again.

Thanks for the great thoughts.
Holycow

I really need to read the books again. Especially book 5 with special interest. I need to start to get them done in time for book 7

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

After book 7 is out and after reading it, I am excited to read the whole series from beginning to end

 

[N&B'smom]

I really need to read the books again. Especially book 5 with special interest. I need to start to get them done in time for book 7

I just reread book 5 and finished it a few weeks ago. I started reading book 6 again too! I'm reading these posts and trying so hard to remember stuff and I can't!! So, I'm going to take my time and savor it so I can remember it all. It's not the easiest book for me to read, it only took me a weekend when it came out but now that I know what happens, it's not easy for me. (kind of like going on TOT after you've been on it, you know what's coming and that sort of makes it worse!)

Shelby

 

[UnderTheMistletoe]

Did Snape have something to do with it?

I tend to doubt it. I just don't see Snape revealing an insecurity or soft side to someone as brutal as LV. At the point Lily was killed, Snape was still very much serving LV and only LV.

Do we have any idea on the timeframe from when Snape heard Trelawney to the time the Potter's were killed?

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

I tend to doubt it. I just don't see Snape revealing an insecurity or soft side to someone as brutal as LV. At the point Lily was killed, Snape was still very much serving LV and only LV.

Do we have any idea on the timeframe from when Snape heard Trelawney to the time the Potter's were killed?

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I guess I'm just grasping at straws, trying to figure out why LV would give Lily the opportunity to walk away. He doesn't strike me as the "I'll give her a fair chance" kind of dark lord, you know what I mean? That was the only reason I could think of at this point, is that Snape may have had something to do with it. But obviously, I could be very very wrong.

About a time frame...I don't think we've been given one. JKR never mentions "Snape overheard the prohecy on this day" and then "the Potters were killed on this day." We never get that. I suppose we'll find that out in book 7.

 

[SueM in MN]

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. I guess I'm just grasping at straws, trying to figure out why LV would give Lily the opportunity to walk away. He doesn't strike me as the "I'll give her a fair chance" kind of dark lord, you know what I mean? That was the only reason I could think of at this point, is that Snape may have had something to do with it. But obviously, I could be very very wrong.

About a time frame...I don't think we've been given one. JKR never mentions "Snape overheard the prohecy on this day" and then "the Potters were killed on this day." We never get that. I suppose we'll find that out in book 7.

On the Harry Potter lexicon, they have a page about Trelawney that gives a year of 1979 for the prophesy being made to Trelawney. The timeline page about events in Harry Potter's life talks about how they came up with the date.

Here is the actual prophesy:
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...".

Snape only heard the first part.

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

On the Harry Potter lexicon, they have a page about Trelawney that gives a year of 1979 for the prophesy being made to Trelawney. The timeline page about events in Harry Potter's life talks about how they came up with the date.

Thanks for the links! I have HP Lexicon bookmarked on my laptop but I never saw that. Well that is interesting. I knew that Snape only heard the first part of the prophecy because they mention that in the book.

Ok, I get that DD trusted Snape and that he believed his regret. But Snape had to have known what LV was going to do with the information he was given. He had to know LV wasn't going to sit idly by and let the Potter's live. So why would he react in horror or give the impression of "well I didn't know he was going to do that, and I really regret it." He knew darn well what LV was capable of, so why wait until after Lily and James murder to repent? That's something I can't wrap my mind around.