*~* Muggles, Welcome to the Burrow! *~*

[HomeSweetDisney]

My first thought on Snape immediately upon reading the book was that he was always a double agent with a certain amount of loyalty to both sides and (unlike most of the Death Eaters) a realistic notion of Dumbledore's power. But in the "Spinner's End" chapter he realized "Oh crap, these two psycho killer drama queens are not going to get out of my house until I pick a side and stick with it, preferably theirs." I think I was just in so much shock I couldn't think straight.

But then the more I read other opinions, and went back and reread DD's death scene, its clear DDs death is part of a larger plan. When Harry was chasing after Snape and trying to hex him, Snape yelled out so many clues. He said that Harry couldn't use Unforgivables. He also brought up James twice, the second time to say that James also tried to turn Snape's own curses on him (hmmmmm). But most interestingly, as Snape kept blocking Harry's curses, he yelled "Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

So, the first was a reference to Harry's unblemished soul--that he lacks the necessary evil impulse to use Unforgivables. This says to me he won't be able to use Avada Kedavra on Voldemort. The reference to James seems to suggest a hypocrisy on the part of James, that James supposedly loathed people who used Dark Magic, but that James somehow got a hold of Snape's potion book at some point or other which contained some dark spells and tried them himself. Finally, I think Snape's comment about blocking Harry's spells foreshadows Harry taking up the study of Occlumency again.

Of course the biggest clue is how Snape insisted they leave Harry behind, and that he stopped another Death Eater from cursing him, and that he himself didn't grab Harry and drag him to Voldemort. That right there is the biggest clue of all that Snape hasn't turned.

But it seems so simple, and JKR is never simple. So there is more to it. I can hardly wait till Book 7 to find out!

I love the way you think

I agree with you completely. I think that Snape was definitely dropping some VERY heavy hints in that chase scene. And she wrote that whole bit with so much desperation in Snape's voice, he was practically screaming "You don't understand this now but you will eventually." I feel like he was so torn between the side of him that is very dark and was once a Death Eater, and the side of him that wants to be a part of bringing Voldemort down. He is a very tortured soul I think. Snape is a fascinating character study, that's for sure.

 

[Belle Amy]

Snape yelled out so many clues. He said that Harry couldn't use Unforgivables. He also brought up James twice, the second time to say that James also tried to turn Snape's own curses on him (hmmmmm). But most interestingly, as Snape kept blocking Harry's curses, he yelled "Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

This seems to me to be the biggest clue as well towards Snapes loyalty. If he had every intention of turning his back on the order and the protection of Harry, he could have easily caused the killing blow to Harry..instead he continued to give advice.

The other clue to me, or at least what I would like to believe is from DD's death scene when he looks at Snape and simply says "Severus, please." I would like to believe that DD would never beg for his life. He was never a man who was afraid of death, therefore would not have to plead Snape to spare him. Instead I feel it was DD asking Snape to follow through with the promise that was made, perhaps the unbreakable curse that was done to insure that Snape followed through with the one thing that he clearly did not want to do.

I just hope that July comes fast, if that really is the release date for book 7...that's one thing JKR does the best, surprising us with things that we should have known long before...the thing I love about her books is that each one leads to the next and any item or character, no matter how random in a previous book, could become an important part of the next book.

 

[JunieJay]

I love the way you think

I agree with you completely. I think that Snape was definitely dropping some VERY heavy hints in that chase scene. And she wrote that whole bit with so much desperation in Snape's voice, he was practically screaming "You don't understand this now but you will eventually." I feel like he was so torn between the side of him that is very dark and was once a Death Eater, and the side of him that wants to be a part of bringing Voldemort down. He is a very tortured soul I think. Snape is a fascinating character study, that's for sure.

I think Snape is very complex, just like most people in life. While Voldemort is pure evil, Snape is just mildly flawed. He represents the crappy people we know in life - bad teachers, bad bosses, bad friends -- but there is more to him than his flaws.

I agree there was a lot of desperation in Snape's voice. I had to go back and read that scene a few times to really get a feel for it.

 

[tink1978]

I love all things Harry Potter and am completely psyched about the newest movie!!!!

 

[Tazicket]

Do you think DD's general physical shape prodded him to make Snape kill him? His hand was messed up and had been for ages and he seemed pretty run down through a lot of HBP.

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

I think Snape is very complex, just like most people in life. While Voldemort is pure evil, Snape is just mildly flawed. He represents the crappy people we know in life - bad teachers, bad bosses, bad friends -- but there is more to him than his flaws.

That's very true! And I think book 7 will give us a chance to see some of his more redeeming qualities.

Do you think DD's general physical shape prodded him to make Snape kill him? His hand was messed up and had been for ages and he seemed pretty run down through a lot of HBP.

I think that may have contributed to his decision. But I really think there was a much bigger plan here and his reasons for having Snape kill him, if that is indeed what happened, were probably much more significant than just his health issues. But his declining physical state could have definitely helped to confirm his decision to go through with such a plan.

 

[VirtuallyMe]

yes I believe DD's illness could have a part to play in it too- no sense losing Snape as a spy to save a man who was going to die soon anyway.

Also DD had to die for the literary value of the story- he has always been there in some way- Harry has always depended on DD and with his death he will now have to stand on his own- something that wouldn't happen if DD had survived

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

Also DD had to die for the literary value of the story- he has always been there in some way- Harry has always depended on DD and with his death he will now have to stand on his own- something that wouldn't happen if DD had survived

Good point. I mean, Harry will still have help getting to where he needs to go. Rowling made that clear at the end of HBP when Ron and Hermione vowed to stick with him and help him do what needs to be done. But you're right, ultimately it comes down to Harry and Voldemort. DD wouldn't have been able to help and as much as he would like to fight this battle for Harry, he knows he cannot. The prophecy is an interesting concept. The fact that Voldemort MADE Harry important and marked him as his equal is the whole reason they are having to fight at all. I really think DD had some really important reason for dying other than just that though. Of course, it could be that simple. With J.K. Rowling you never know.

 

[Micheme]

Jumping on the band wagon here, i am a huge harry potter fan and love love love the books.

Now for the question on the table

So... Who's side is Snape on? The Order? Lord Voldermort's? I think Snape will ultimately be shown to be good, its hard to say yes he is with the order or no, i think it will more come to a choice he has to make and a sacrifice as well (hint hint.... i am so thinking he is going to sacrifice himself for harry).

What's up with Narcissa and Draco in "Spinner's End"?
Hmm going to have to reread that part? Can't remember any help?

And why does Dumbledore trust him explicitly? Why does Snape kill (gulp) Dumbledore- did occulemency and legilimens have anything to do with it?

I think that Snape has no choice but to kill Dumbledore, he has to save Draco, they both know this. I wonder if Snape told DD about the unbreakable vow???? But in the end I think DD sacrificed himself and Snape knew he had to do it.

And what are we renaming this thread people?!

HMMMMM we could call the thread - Griffindor Common Room or The Knight's Bus or hmmmmmm THE BURROW !!!!!

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

What's up with Narcissa and Draco in "Spinner's End"?
Hmm going to have to reread that part? Can't remember any help?


HMMMMM we could call the thread - Griffindor Common Room or The Knight's Bus or hmmmmmm THE BURROW !!!!!

I like The Burrow The way Rowling describes it makes me wish I lived there!

Anyway, the Spinner's End chapter was Ch. 2 I believe. It was the one where you see Narcissa and Bellatrix going to visit Snape. They discuss Voldemort's plan for Draco and Narcissa begs Snape to help her find some other way to carry out the plan that doesn't involved getting Draco hurt or killed. In the end of the chapter, Snape agrees to do the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, promising her that he will protect Draco, perform the task for him if it gets dangerous, and ultimately die for him if he has to.

 

[DisneyMomOK]

1111111111111

 

[va32h]

I think Snape is very complex, just like most people in life. While Voldemort is pure evil, Snape is just mildly flawed. He represents the crappy people we know in life - bad teachers, bad bosses, bad friends -- but there is more to him than his flaws.

I agree there was a lot of desperation in Snape's voice. I had to go back and read that scene a few times to really get a feel for it.

I think Snape is much more than mildly flawed. I think he is deeply flawed, at the least.

He is someone who has seen and explored the depths of his own evilness. To his credit at least, he was repulsed, whereas Voldemort was delighted.

Snape took a pleasure in physically torturing his students, particularly Harry, the son of his rival. This reveals not just a certain level of sadism, but a deep streak of pettiness. During the Occlumency lessons, Snape was abusively violent with Harry, not just "invading" his mind but literally banging him into the floor and the walls.

JKR has sad herself that Snape is more culpable than Voldemort - Snape at least had a mother who loved him.

When it comes to Sirius/James (and by extension Harry) Snape has a pronounced lack of self-awareness. He can't see that his personal loathing of these people affects his judgment. Or won't see.

But in other respects, I think Snape has come to terms with what his life his - which is impossible. He chose to be a double (possibly triple!) agent, and in doing so, had to accept that he would never be at home in either side, would end up being despised by both sides, and could be caught and killed at any moment. Killing Dumbledore was a microcosm of Snape's dilemma. If he does not kill Dumbledore, when given the chance, he is outed to Voldemort's side as a spy. If he does kill Dumbledore, the Order will never trust him again. Either way, somebody hates him and wants him dead.

Dumbledore was a man who always looked at the big picture. He would have wanted Snape to do what would ultimately do the most good - in this case continue to work for the Order from within Voldemort's ranks. After all, Dumbledore knows he (Dumbledore) can't kill Voldemort. He can afford to die.

We will probably find out why Snape made this choice in book 7, but I think it was motivated by self-loathing, and some kind of remorse. Not for the love of Lily Evans - but for some more philosophical reason.

I think Snape's character is meant to show us the power of redemption. That even the worst can be saved, if his regret is sincere. I think it will be Snape who brings Harry and Voldy together for their ultimate fight, possibly even saving Harry at some point, or assisting him in destroying the last Horcrux (before Harry has to kill V).

It is possible to be a basically good person but behave horribly (hello Sirius Black) and also possible to be a basically bad person but rise to the occasion and behave nobly - and this will be Snape.

 

[Tazicket]

I think Snape is much more than mildly flawed. I think he is deeply flawed, at the least.

He is someone who has seen and explored the depths of his own evilness. To his credit at least, he was repulsed, whereas Voldemort was delighted.

Snape took a pleasure in physically torturing his students, particularly Harry, the son of his rival. This reveals not just a certain level of sadism, but a deep streak of pettiness. During the Occlumency lessons, Snape was abusively violent with Harry, not just "invading" his mind but literally banging him into the floor and the walls.

JKR has sad herself that Snape is more culpable than Voldemort - Snape at least had a mother who loved him.

When it comes to Sirius/James (and by extension Harry) Snape has a pronounced lack of self-awareness. He can't see that his personal loathing of these people affects his judgment. Or won't see.

But in other respects, I think Snape has come to terms with what his life his - which is impossible. He chose to be a double (possibly triple!) agent, and in doing so, had to accept that he would never be at home in either side, would end up being despised by both sides, and could be caught and killed at any moment. Killing Dumbledore was a microcosm of Snape's dilemma. If he does not kill Dumbledore, when given the chance, he is outed to Voldemort's side as a spy. If he does kill Dumbledore, the Order will never trust him again. Either way, somebody hates him and wants him dead.

Dumbledore was a man who always looked at the big picture. He would have wanted Snape to do what would ultimately do the most good - in this case continue to work for the Order from within Voldemort's ranks. After all, Dumbledore knows he (Dumbledore) can't kill Voldemort. He can afford to die.

We will probably find out why Snape made this choice in book 7, but I think it was motivated by self-loathing, and some kind of remorse. Not for the love of Lily Evans - but for some more philosophical reason.

I think Snape's character is meant to show us the power of redemption. That even the worst can be saved, if his regret is sincere. I think it will be Snape who brings Harry and Voldy together for their ultimate fight, possibly even saving Harry at some point, or assisting him in destroying the last Horcrux (before Harry has to kill V).

It is possible to be a basically good person but behave horribly (hello Sirius Black) and also possible to be a basically bad person but rise to the occasion and behave nobly - and this will be Snape.

What a great post! You really gave me a lot to think about!

 

[JunieJay]

I think Snape is much more than mildly flawed. I think he is deeply flawed, at the least.

Humanly flawed might have been better choice of words on my part. At his core, he is not evil. He has the potential for good, as we have seen over and over again when he saves Harry from harm. I think the final scene will come down to good versus evil with Snape playing a major part on the side of good.

 

[Tazicket]

He has the potential for good, as we have seen over and over again when he saves Harry from harm.

Each time he has saved Harry, it's seemed like it was done VERY grudgingly. Like he didn't want to at all. Do you think he was forced into it by DD, playing a part to show Voldemort's supporters how disdainful he is of Harry, because he's essentially good at heart, or something else? I kind of think it's some combination of the three (even though it bugs me to think of Snape as "good" when I've been disliking his character for so long).

 

[UnderTheMistletoe]

I, too, am in the Snape-put-himself-in-one-heck-of-a-predicament-but-is-not-a-ruthless-killer camp. As I said to DH after reading GoF- "Snape is always there to save Harry. It's as though he's protecting him in some way."

I reread that last scene as Snape giving Harry advice, and a whole lot clicked. I always read DD as begging SS to keep a promise (unbreakable vow even) to kill him. I think something is mentioned about eye contact- "they met eyes"- which was beated over our heads for the occulmency and legilimens to work. Perhaps DD gave SS a "final" message, if you will.

I'm still so baffled by Snape's Worst Memory though. And, contrary to what some here believe, I do not that think was actually Snape's book. A theory has been suggested elsewhere that perhaps Snape and Lily sat together. Although the didn't share a book, they wrote notes back-and-forth in it. It makes sense if you look at, "Fantastical Beasts and Where to Find Them," from the Comic Relief JKR publications. Ron, Harry, and Hermione all write notes to eachother and to the book in it. It's a bit too much like, "Shove a beazor down his throat," to miss. If you haven't picked the Hogwarts Library books up, do so! They should be in the children's section right in with the other HP books as they are written by JKR.

 

[UnderTheMistletoe]

Alright, folks, check out our new main page (post 1). Whatdoyathink?

 

[Tazicket]

Alright, folks, check out our new main page (post 1). Whatdoyathink?

Looks great!!

 

[U2_rocks!]

My first thought on Snape immediately upon reading the book was that he was always a double agent with a certain amount of loyalty to both sides and (unlike most of the Death Eaters) a realistic notion of Dumbledore's power. But in the "Spinner's End" chapter he realized "Oh crap, these two psycho killer drama queens are not going to get out of my house until I pick a side and stick with it, preferably theirs." I think I was just in so much shock I couldn't think straight.

But then the more I read other opinions, and went back and reread DD's death scene, its clear DDs death is part of a larger plan. When Harry was chasing after Snape and trying to hex him, Snape yelled out so many clues. He said that Harry couldn't use Unforgivables. He also brought up James twice, the second time to say that James also tried to turn Snape's own curses on him (hmmmmm). But most interestingly, as Snape kept blocking Harry's curses, he yelled "Blocked again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

So, the first was a reference to Harry's unblemished soul--that he lacks the necessary evil impulse to use Unforgivables. This says to me he won't be able to use Avada Kedavra on Voldemort. The reference to James seems to suggest a hypocrisy on the part of James, that James supposedly loathed people who used Dark Magic, but that James somehow got a hold of Snape's potion book at some point or other which contained some dark spells and tried them himself. Finally, I think Snape's comment about blocking Harry's spells foreshadows Harry taking up the study of Occlumency again.

Of course the biggest clue is how Snape insisted they leave Harry behind, and that he stopped another Death Eater from cursing him, and that he himself didn't grab Harry and drag him to Voldemort. That right there is the biggest clue of all that Snape hasn't turned.

But it seems so simple, and JKR is never simple. So there is more to it. I can hardly wait till Book 7 to find out!

I agree with these points - they are a big part of why I see Snape on the side of "good", even though he can be a miserable SOB (I don't think he knows any other way to be - he's had a hard life, and it has made him very cynical and crusty, and downright mean).

I am also a big HP fan, though a little late! I only got into this in the last couple of years! I own all the books and have read them twice (planning to read book 6 again before book 7 comes out), and I own all the movies and have watched them countless times! I love the movies - they don't entirely follow the storylines, and I really wish they did sometimes, but I am a visual person, so I love to see an approved (by JKR) interpretation of Hogwarts, the magical world and the characters. I love having a real picture in my head when I read the books - I'm not that good at creating my own pictures - I tend to read and get into the plot more than I do the descriptions of everything.

 

[Micheme]

AWESOME !!!!!

May i suggest for our next topic we discuss who will kick the bucket in the next book, i'm sure it will be an interesting one.