Much to your chagrin...

[space42]

Wow, what a great thread! Thanks again to the moderators for putting up wtih this

One point from Bstanley..

was not at EPCOT until '91 (the first year I visited a Disney park). I was basically regurgitating a section of the book "Prince of the Magic Kingdom" referring to the fact that half of the attractions in FutureWorld weren't open when the park opened, and that most of the World Showcase didn't have any attractions at all (still don't actually).

The EPCOT of '91 was not really that different than the EPCOT of '83. Lets see.. The Living Seas were built in 1989 as was the Wonders of Life. The rest was basicly the same as '83 (the reason I keep using '83 was that two of the big FW attractions opened a year after the park opened in '82 JII and Horizons) World Showcase also added Norway in 1988.

One more point about AK. I really do love AK, I just wish there was more of it.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Ok, where is Baron to say 'Ah Ha! Exactly!! You've got it!! It is popular so it makes them money, and all Disney wants to do is make money as opposed to give us new and original entertainment'. Am I doing better Baron?

Much! Before long you’ll be riding shotgun with me!!!

p.s. Baron, you can hardly say these rides were an increase the bottom line decision. Perhaps a cheap way to add something, but they added something to enhance the experience of a slice of the visiting public, not make more money.

It’s one in the same. They found that the numbers weren’t right for AK. So they sent out their minions to do some customer surveys. And do you know what the surveys said? That’s right! NOT ENOUGH TO DO!!! Especially for the kids. So how do we keep people from HATING the AK experience? Give them something more to do, of course!!! So they dusted off the plans for Beastly Kingdom and even drew up an Australian and South American section…. Oh! No! Wait! That was in the dream I had!! What they really did was give us Dino-rama!! What innovators!!! Now that’s the kind of magic Walt provided!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

It seems that no matter what car anyone is in, they agree Dino Rama was a mistake. Even this devoted Car #1 fan. But can we stop obsessing over that particular mistake? And you know what, even though it was a mistake it can still be enjoyable. Some day we will get Beastly Kingdom (it is hard to be patient, especially when we should have had it to begin with), but in the mean time can we stop bashing everything that comes out that isn't BK .

p.s. Was Aladdin added because the MK numbers weren't 'right'?

 

[Captain Crook]

I like Dino-Rama just fine. PW has been the most requested ride by my kids over the last two visits & they both (9 &13) agree it's a lot of fun. The 13 yo, btw, also has been to IOA and likes the coasters', so there is no exclusivity or favoritism factor for her. She just thinks the ride is a blast & thinks we're 'geeks' for worrying about it. These are memories in the making that will be every bit as memorable as Mad Tea Cups for example and the Disney tie in is the movie Dinosaur, which again, the Kids really enjoy...

That said would I have liked more? Heck yeah. I'm on record as being mad at Scoop for reminding me that they could have put this ride inside and really 'wowed' it up a notch or two...But this is what we received and the fact is it was given because the smaller kids needed more to do. It does that and in a bright, colorful & fanciful way.

Oh Landbaron...

so how do we keep people from HATING the AK experience?

Who really hates AK? They feel it's incomplete and not exciting enough, but mostly thats because we're becoming a hand-held society who has no time, inclination or predisposition to stop and smell the roses. AK offers so much and in such a unique way that I am truely sadened at the inability of people to accept it without a triple loop roller coaster. The quality of what was given is exceptional and the 'show' aspect of the Park is just...Disney.

In fact with the addition of D-R I no longer hope for a full scale, excitement oriented BK. I still want it (BK) and the proposed multiple launch coaster (inside & themed) would be my perfect dream come true...But I'll tell you what, if as AV has alluded to is corect, and what AK actually receives is a new land (Australia) with a Soarin' clone and native Austraian theming & wildlife I'll be quite happy with the state of AK...

 

[DisneyKidds]

Don't worry 'Crook, we're on the same page . I like DinoRama too, for what it offers, but agree it could have been done 'better' had Disney gone for the WOW factor. So to clarify, I guess I would say the manner in which they chose to implement DinoRama could be considered a mistake, but DinoRama itself isn't. Did that make the mud any clearer?

 

[Galahad]

Who really hates AK?

We are having a big family rerunion this week and having the whole crew in to OKW. None have been to WDW. DW is usually solidly in Car #1 with me said "we don't want to take them to AK, that's the worst park". This was incredible to me because we love AK ourselves. So there is even the perception among those who like AK that everyone else doesn't (kind of like "the schools are terrible but our school is OK").

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

It seems that no matter what car anyone is in, they agree Dino Rama was a mistake. Even this devoted Car #1 fan. But can we stop obsessing over that particular mistake?

No. Not really. Why? Because it is so easily recognizable and a tangible example of the Ei$ner’s “Disney®” philosophy. It is the perfect example!!!

Oh Landbaron...

so how do we keep people from HATING the AK experience?

Who really hates AK?

Captain!!! I’ve missed you!!!!! But you still read only part of my posts. Go ahead. Re-read it. There! Do you see your mistake. I didn’t say anyone hated AK! I said that they may hate the AK experience. You know, feeling ripped off because there wasn’t enough to do (their surveys, not mine).

They feel it's incomplete and not exciting enough, but mostly that’s because we're becoming a hand-held society who has no time, inclination or predisposition to stop and smell the roses.

Exactly!! So do you think Disney will be able to change society? I don’t. I think they better start tapping into their psyche. Like some old guy did way back in 1955.

AK offers so much and in such a unique way that I am truly saddened at the inability of people to accept it without a triple loop roller coaster.

Me too. (SEE ABOVE)

 

[DisneyKidds]

Baron, you seem to think Eisner's philosophy is 'Give them quick, cheap garbage, they will eat it up and it will be good enough'. Yes? That is the downfall of Disney, is it not?

They feel it's incomplete and not exciting enough, but mostly thats because we're becoming a hand-held society who has no time, inclination or predisposition to stop and smell the roses.

Exactly!! So do you think Disney will be able to change society? I don’t. I think they better start tapping into their psyche.

You seem are implying that the Eisner regime shouldn't have given the public what they did in AK because it wasn't what the public wanted, right?

I have to ask, would that be the quick, cheap garbage the public wanted because they had no time, inclination or predisposition to stop and smell the roses? As I discussed in another thread (or was it this one ) the "roses" (speaking metaphorically) are what help to complete the magic. Are you saying you can have a Magical WDW without the "roses"?

Like some old guy did way back in 1955.

You have impressed me with your knowledge of WDW and Walt himself, but this may be uncharacteristic. I will read up and let you know for sure. However, didn't Walt do more than 'tap into psyche' and 'give the public what they wanted'? It seems to me he had a way of giving the public something they didn't even know they wanted. In a way he did want to, and was successful in, changing society. Why shouldn't current management shoot for the same? As such, I don't by that AK is a failure because they gave so many "roses" that the public didn't want.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Baron, you seem to think Eisner's philosophy is 'Give them quick, cheap garbage, they will eat it up and it will be good enough'. Yes? That is the downfall of Disney, is it not?

Yes! You have the essence of it. It is the difference between “Walt’s Disney” and Disney®.

You seem are implying that the Eisner regime shouldn't have given the public what they did in AK because it wasn't what the public wanted, right?

(Hmmm. Why do I feel like I’m being led down the proverbial garden path!?)

Well… Your honor… I have no clear memory of it at this time! (That’s the Chicago way!!)

Seriously though, yes and no. I think if they wanted to present us with that ‘different’ experience that AK is, then it is incumbent upon them to present it in a way that the public will accept. In other words, you can’t let the people leave feeling rip-off. If they truly wanted to bring us this new experience then a Beastly Kingdom is an absolute must!! (or at least something like it.) The public, after experiencing the instant gratification can then go back and experience the WOW(!!) that goes into the exploration of the nooks and crannies. That was the principle upon which (witch) EPCOT was founded. After 20+ years of exploration, I’m still finding little things I never noticed before, especially in World Showcase.

In a way, it’s kind of like giving us EPCOT with only World Showcase and a vague promise that Future World will come. Even though WS is by far my favorite place in all of WDW, I would have been sorely disappointed had it opened alone. Ripped off would have been putting it mildly. And I probably wouldn’t have returned, and therefore have missed all those little things that for me at least, make up so much of the ‘Magic’!!

However, didn't Walt do more than 'tap into psyche' and 'give the public what they wanted'? It seems to me he had a way of giving the public something they didn't even know they wanted.

WOW!!! There’s hope for you yet!!! That is a perfect statement!! And very well put. I’m impressed!!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Ah, but my good Baron, I assume the 'hope' you see is that I will someday be riding with you in Car #3. I hope the day never comes because that would truely be a sad commentary on our beloved WDW. I know your true hope if for everyone to be consolidated into a bus #1. Scratch that - a monorail #1. Scratch that - a next gen WDW transportation vehicle #1 ......

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Ah, but my good Baron, I assume the 'hope' you see is that I will someday be riding with you in Car #3.

My hope is that Disney will wake up and smell the coffee. There is nothing more that I’d rather do than to join you in car #1, happily riding to my beloved DVC for the next forty or so years.

I think you’re thinking of it in the wrong terms. Any old timer on these boards will tell you I’m the original schizophrenic when it comes to Disney. And they will further tell you that it took quite a while, and a whole bunch of education (in Disney) to form my present stance. And once my current viewpoint was solidified it surprised me how easy it was to disregard the ‘business philosophy’ and not let it interfere with the Magic. I think that is what holds a lot of people in car #1. (just a guess, mind you. But I really do believe it. It’s like what AV says about brand loyalty).

Now I said it’s easy and I mean it. If you think of it as a parent thinks of a kid. No matter what the kid does, they still love him (i.e. feel the magic). And for most behavior a parent gladly looks the other way (not my kid!!). And this is what I feel a lot of #1 people do here. Or they make excuses, "Oh! We ran out of Ritalin today!!" or “Really. He’s just tired. He usually doesn’t use language like that!!”

But sometimes. Just sometimes, Father Flanagan is proven wrong and the parent has to resort to “tough love”. That, in a nutshell, is my take on things. There is no way to stop the spiral downhill, given the current management personnel (in parenting terms, behavior modification is absolutely mandatory!!). However, I still love the kid (feel the magic). But it’s time for some changes or he’ll wind up an irrefutable juvenal delinquent!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

In todays society we are way too quick to put kids on Ritalin or other meds. ADHD and the like are the diagnoses du jour. There are differing levels of behavior modification as well. Sounds like the debate board now .

Is the child (WDW) going thru some terrible two's? Perhaps the child (WDW) is going through some pre-pubescent hormonal thing. Maybe the child (WDW) just had a tiff with a best friend or broke up with a boy/girl friend. Maybe the kid (WDW) doesn't know how to responsibly spend all that money he is making from that new paper route. There are lots of issues kids (WDW) might have that don't lead down the road to juvenile delinquency.

Timing, refurbishment, makeovers, the age of the parks, financial management, business relationships, new endeavors - none of these are easy to manage. However, just like it is best to try and help kids through their problems and give them some time before you go great guns with the meds and serious behavioral mod, so too should we allow WDW to grow, mature, make mistakes, learn....... I agreed once before, WDW is akin to a problem child, however, we must keep the problems in perspective. And remember, when dealing with children you must praise the positive as well. If you don't do this you do more damage than you can imagine. Continually, and only, harping on the negative can be damaging to the child and can get in the way of finding effective solutions to the issues. Before you say it, I will - you recognize when WDW does something good, it just isn't very often lately. I happen to disagree and believe that Disney today doesn't get enough credit for much of what they do.