Much to your chagrin...

[DisneyKidds]

Space - I don' t think Scoop's claim is that crazy. However, he and I are in the same car . Thanks for the insight .

 

[DisDuck]

space.. Studios a 1/2 day park then what is Epcot. Not everyone wants to travel thru the World Showcase unless you are a shopper. Only Mexico & Norway have true rides. FutureWorld can be done by 1pm. So I guess only MK is a full-day park.

 

[space42]

Originally posted by DisDuck
space.. Studios a 1/2 day park then what is Epcot. Not everyone wants to travel thru the World Showcase unless you are a shopper. Only Mexico & Norway have true rides. FutureWorld can be done by 1pm. So I guess only MK is a full-day park.

It is now that they took all of the 15 minute long audio animatronic extravaganza type attractions out of Future World.

 

[HB2K]

'Daddy, take us back to Disney World' (GAWD - she is soooooo cute )

Bet she wasn't saying "Daddy take me back to DinoRama". Or Aladdin, or the Hat.

Magic faded? I don't think so. It was overflowing.. so much so, that the wave of magic didn't crest until the mid 1990's

Yeah, the time before Eisner took over was a boffo time for the Disney company. The magic was so abundant the company almost got sold off and broken into pieces....Disney didn't catch it's second wind until the "Disney Decade"...

 

[DisneyKidds]

Well actually, she has asked specifically about Triceratops and Aladdin. While these rides may not appeal to everyone and may not be E-ticket, they do have appeal. Blame it all on Damnbo. Who cares if they are cheap and somewhat unoriginal, they do provide excitement for the toddler and under set. I don't think Disney added these to appeal to the masses. You would be correct in saying they should add more that appeals to the masses (better than PW), but these rides aren't failures and don't lead me to rue the day the evil Eisner and his gang took over.

 

[HB2K]

Well actually, she has asked specifically about Triceratops and Aladdin

So you think 20-30 years from now she'll daydream about the time Daddy took her to ride the spinning Dinosaurs?

 

[space42]

Yeah, the time before Eisner took over was a boffo time for the Disney company. The magic was so abundant the company almost got sold off and broken into pieces....Disney didn't catch it's second wind until the "Disney Decade"...

Well, I must admit.. I am ignorant to what Disney management was going through in the early 80's (besides what I have read here). However terrible things were then, you certainly could not see it in the theme park(s) at WDW (unlike now were the companys problems slap you right in the face as you enter Dinorama). As mentioned in my 1980 wayback machine post, the early 80's was a very exciting time to be at WDW. 3 major E-Tickets added to the MK, EPCOT getting built, Monorail expansion, etc.. Perhaps the parks would have been better off if Disney was split in pieces? I really don't know the answer, but could things really be worse than they are right now?

 

[Bstanley]

The time between the death of Roy Senior (1971) and the Roy Junior/Bass Brothers financed take over of Disney (1984) that installed the big ME and FW was not a successful time for Disney. And indeed it ended up with several 'greenmail/takeover' attempts that would have probably broken up (destroyed) the company if they had been successful...

And there were some parallels in the creation of new rides and parks. When EPCOT opened it would have been viewed as a 1/2 day park - and what it did have required sponsor's money. Big Thunder Mesa (Name?) got pushed out and then forgotten. A half-length Pirates got built. The 'Thai' resort got forgotten (What's that big square of land for daddy? - where the Grand FLoridian is now). Tokyo Disneyland had to be funded by the OLC. etc. etc.

The movies of the Seventies and early Eighties were mostly yawners also.

So since we seem to be having a major case of Deja-vu 20 years later, where are we going to find our FW/big ME team today? And perhaps more importantly, where are the Bass brother equivalents?

 

[space42]

The time between the death of Roy Senior (1971) and the Roy Junior/Bass Brothers financed take over of Disney (1984) that installed the big ME and FW was not a successful time for Disney.

I know this has been stated before.. but I still disagree that this was not a successful time for Disney. Perhaps miss-managed, but not unsuccessful.

And there were some parallels in the creation of new rides and parks. When EPCOT opened it would have been viewed as a 1/2 day park

I suppose this is personal preference again. However, can you compare the EPCOT of 1983 (after the opening of JII and Horizons) with AK of 1999 (after Asia opened)? Futureworld alone took me 4-5 hours to see! Each pavilion in FW was AT LEAST a one hour experience (even if you had minimal waits.. thank Walt for omnimover rides)! FW alone had double the amount of rides that AK has! Not counting the shows/movies/rides in World Showcase. Again, personal preference if you wanted to see each of these.. but you cannot deny the numbers.

Big Thunder Mesa (Name?) got pushed out and then forgotten.

True, but we did still get an E-Ticket out of the idea (Big Thunder Mountain). This would be like getting the dragon coaster at AK without the rest of BK. The public (at least myself and friends/family) had no idea that Big Thunder was part of a bigger plan. There were NO signs of budget cuts or that it was a part of something bigger. Unlike AK (hey, whats that dragon doing in the logo?)

A half-length Pirates got built

Again, transparent to most of the public. No signs of budget cuts or a second rate attraction. Even though shorter, it still is a first rate E-Ticket all the way! I admit until I saw video on the internet of Pirates in Disneyland, I had no idea that our version was shorter than the original(missing about 5 minutes of caves and darkness). I wouldn't call it 1/2 length though.

The movies of the Seventies and early Eighties were mostly yawners also.

Agreed! Except for Tron!

So since we seem to be having a major case of Deja-vu 20 years later, where are we going to find our FW/big ME team today? And perhaps more importantly, where are the Bass brother equivalents?

If those are the things that were so bad in the 70's / early 80's than the current situation is MUCH worse than it appears!

 

[Another Voice]

Yet during these dark ages, all of the other movie studios in Hollywood either went bankrupted or were bought out. Only Disney survived untouched. Maybe there was something good going on there to some degree. Of course most people consider the Bass Brothers as the corporate raiders that succeeded were all the others had failed. They got in, took their money, and left while the hired help runs off with the silverware.

EPCOT Center was seen as many things when it first opened, but NONE of them were “a half day park”. How many people here actually saw the place in 1982 and does anyone have any quote that this was a prevailing opinion? Or is this just some sorry attempt to make Animal Kingdom look better?

Yep, the Thai resort got forgotten, along with Persian. But I have yet to see Michael’s Disney Decade (and publicly announced) Magic Kingdom Suites, The Mediterranean, or Buffalo Junction Resort listed for reservations. If we want to start bashing each regime for unbuilt plans you’re in for a mightily long list.

Half scale Pirates; yes that was a big mistake. They knew it at the time and went ahead anyway – the first clear sign that Card and Ron didn’t really get it. But in hind sight, I’d much rather have half-scaled single attractions rather than half-scale parks. And even the stupid people managed to turn out ‘Space Mountain’, ‘Splash Mountain’ and all the attractions in EPCOT Center. Funny, there’s not a single decorated traveling carnival ride in the bunch.

The Tokyo Disneyland deal, I suppose you’re talking about what the financial arrangement that Michael now calls “the blueprint for all future parks”? The deal for Disneyland Hong Kong, the deal they tried to swing with Lego for Legoland WDW, the fact that Disney controls less of Disneyland Paris than the Saudi Royal Family does, or all those leased and sold operations that funded California Adventure? Gee, wasn’t all of Dinosaurland in Animal Kingdom bought and paid for by McDonalds?

I could go on because history really can be fun. But I’m tired from a long flight and I’ll stop. But ask yourself the following question.

Look at the resource the “bad old days” people had and what they built. Now look at the resources available the current “bright shinning wonder” guys.

Which crowd gave the public the most?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Hold the phone a minute, partner!! Let’s take a real good look at exactly what you posted there. First off:

The time between the death of Roy Senior (1971) and the Roy Junior/Bass Brothers financed take over of Disney (1984) that installed the big ME and FW was not a successful time for Disney.

Not a successful time? All the way from 1971 to 1984? Are you sure about that time frame? I don’t know about that. I would think that it was a tremendous time for the company! Especially the parks! 1971 saw WDW open to rave reviews. Within a few years they were literally closing the gates many, many times during the summer months because they had reached capacity. They even extended normal summer hours from midnight to 1:00 in the morning (Main Street closing at two). Their resorts were booked solid two (or more) years into the future. And 1981 saw the opening of EPCOT Center. And those ten years (out of the 13 you mentioned) were not successful? I don’t know how you measure success, but it’s apparently way, way different than mine!!!

Now if you tell me that the Walker/Miller era didn’t quite understand the assets that they had, or that they could have/should have charged more, built more, maybe I’ll go along with that. Were they a little too conservative? Yes, I might have to agree with you. But not successful? No way!!

And indeed it ended up with several 'greenmail/takeover' attempts that would have probably broken up (destroyed) the company if they had been successful...

My good friend, they were successful! Don’t kid yourself, they were most definitely taken over. They were taken over from within. And from that very first day, way back in 1984, the philosophical business model of Disney changed! Radically! And we are now seeing the fruits of that philosophy. And I for one, am disappointed at the outcome. Aren’t you?

When EPCOT opened it would have been viewed as a 1/2 day park

OH MY GOD!!! Were you there back in 1981/’82? Did you see it for yourself? I don’t think anyone has ever postulated that EPCOT could have been a half-day park. In fact, I use EPCOT as an example of the way a park should open! Full. Complete. So much to do and see that you couldn’t possibly do it in just one day! Sure they added on since, but that just makes it a two day park (of course that was before they started paring down and replacing long immersive attractions for relatively short rides).

The 'Thai' resort got forgotten (What's that big square of land for daddy? - where the Grand Floridian is now).

Well, the actual plan called for a Venetian, Asian, and Persian. Somewhere along the line a Mediterranean was introduced. And I hold Card Walker and Ron Miller responsible for not building anything. I blame Ei$ner for not building things correctly! He should be held much more accountable. When the decision was made to build, and all the political ramification considered and dealt with, he should have installed the original plan. But of course he didn’t! Instead we were introduced to the non-Disney caste system of resorts, which pulls in a lot of money, but so blurred the Disney standard that it is almost unrecognizable today!!

So Mikey!! Mr. Big Cheese! Now that Bstanley has brought it up I have a question for you!! What happened to the Persian, Asian, and Venetian/Mediterranean? Why all western hemisphere concepts? Were the old plans scraped simply because they were thought of under the old regime? One has to wonder!!!!

Tokyo Disneyland had to be funded by the OLC. etc. etc

Had to be funded? Had to be funded? It was a choice!! Plain and simple! There was no “had to” involved!

The movies of the Seventies and early Eighties were mostly yawners also.

Well!! Something we can agree on!!

So since we seem to be having a major case of Deja-vu 20 years later, where are we going to find our FW/big ME team today?

Oh heaven help us, I hope we can’t!!! Instead I’d much rather get someone who “gets it”! That’d be nice for a change!! Don’t you think so?

 

[airlarry!]

I was there just after the opening of Epcot.

I know a half-day park. And senator, Epcot was no half-day park.

Epcot center was in fact a two-day park for the normal family of two adults and two kids on their first trip to Disney. It extended the resort visit effectively to four days...one at MK, two at Epcot, and one last at MK to finish up.

Epcot was two days because of the length of the shows, the interactive nature of the exhibits in some of the pavilians, and mainly, for the sheer *size* of the place. Remember, think about this park from the perspective of a newcomer. As a newcomer, one could cover MGM in about 3/4 of a day when it first opened, (not as a repeat visitor looking for every nook and cranny) and the same for AK.

Take it from personal experience, Epcot was a wear-you-down, make-the-kids-fussy, spin-around-and-marvel-how-big-this-concrete-and-asphalt-park-was, two day park.

 

[space42]

Take it from personal experience, Epcot was a wear-you-down, make-the-kids-fussy, spin-around-and-marvel-how-big-this-concrete-and-asphalt-park-was, two day park

I'm glad someone else backed me up on the EPCOT 1/2 day park thing. I agree, it was more like a two day park.

In fact, a popular saying at that time was that EPCOT stood for "Every Person Comes Out Tired".

We definitly dont have that problem with Animal Kingdom...

 

[PKS44]

Did EPCOT in March 1984 as a college commando-from opening to closing and barely got to thru the main things we wanted to do-the idea that it was a 1/2 day park is completely false, misleading-wrong. That was the last full park Disney built-by Eisner's own assessment--his "new" plan is to underbuild in the beginning-and grow...but the public is not buying it and the attendence at his little Nahtazoo keeps falling...

Paul

 

[DisneyKidds]

I am going to try and refrain from quoting too much here. Suffice to say, I agree with Bstanley. He is trying to make one of the same points I have been (without much success on my part I might add). 20 years ago there were folks who thought that the Disney management team was doing everything right, some everything wrong, some in between. Even as we look back on it today there are people who fit each category. Fast forward to today and the same thing is happening. 20 years ago there were Car #3 people who worried that in 20 years Disney might be gone, yet here we are. Even the Car #3 folks today that think the '71 to '84 period was successful point out that various things were not followed through on, not implemented as originally planned, and mistakes were made. My, what the Car #3 people at the time must have been saying. I'm sure the 'questionable' decisions back then weren't transparent to everyone.

I know this has been stated before.. but I still disagree that this was not a successful time for Disney. Perhaps miss-managed, but not unsuccessful.

Ok, I had to quote, but this is a great sentence. Fast forward to 2022. I'd place any wager that an awful lot of people will be looking back then saying this about the 'Ei$ner' regime.

I am going to attempt to bow out of the AK, Epcot, half day park revolving door - I can just see it going round and round (but I suspect I will be sucked back in). All I will say is this. There will be people that can make good arguments that AK is a half day park FOR THEM. There will be people that can make good arguments that Epcot is a half day park FOR THEM. I don't believe anyone can make a good argument that either is a half day park FOR EVERYONE. So long as there is one person who chooses to see and do everything in the AK and spends at least a day there (and it really would be more like a day and a half to do it all) it is not a half day park. You can make all the arguments you want that it is a business failure, but that doesn't make it a half day park.

HB2K....

So you think 20-30 years from now she'll daydream about the time Daddy took her to ride the spinning Dinosaurs?

As much as she does about the flying Elephants, and you know how people feel about them - not everyone mind you, but it has become a Disney classic.

 

[airlarry!]

M. DisneyKidds,

I appreciate your efforts. I really do. But the arguments in favor of Epcot being a 1/2 day park and relating that to other parks will not work.

They fly in the face of recent announcements by the Disney management. Read Eisner's biography, "Work in Progre$$." Read some of those articles in earlier posts that the new Disney model is to intentionally build them small and add to them later (I have an addendum to this...build them small, and only add to them later if needed--if Disneyland Hong Kong is successful, it may be years--I mean *years*--before they get any of the biggies.)

Here is the difference. Ei$ner questions why anyone would build an Epcot anymore. Why build something that big and make it hard to return profits, when he thinks you can build a DCA or an AK for less and sit back and count de monet.

Please don't think I'm knocking AK here. I love Animal Kingdom. But Epcot was a complete park that needed tune-ups and the occassional addition to keep the park fresh.

 

[HB2K]

As much as she does about the flying Elephants, and you know how people feel about them - not everyone mind you, but it has become a Disney classic.

The difference is Dumbo has a story & purpose. You get to fly in the flying elephant. I was unaware of the fairy tale which dinosaurs fly.

And that being said, how does she differenciate between all of the spinners?

 

[Bstanley]

LOL!

Sorry boys and girls - obviously we have a bunch of EPCOT lovers here... Well I love it too, so

Ok a few facts to set the record straight:

I was not at EPCOT until '91 (the first year I visited a Disney park). I was basically regurgitating a section of the book "Prince of the Magic Kingdom" referring to the fact that half of the attractions in FutureWorld weren't open when the park opened, and that most of the World Showcase didn't have any attractions at all (still don't actually).

And as to whether it was 'mis-managed' or 'unsuccessful' or what, the facts were that profits were thin, the stock was seriously undervalued, the financial sharks smelled the blood and started to attack and if Roy Jr and FW (yes that's right, according to the books Roy's lawyer brought FW into it first) hadn't interested the Bass boys in the potential and mounted a friendly(?) takeover bid Saul Steinberg would probably have bought it and 'dismembered it' (his words). I for one don't want to get back into the "are we better now than then, blah, blah, blah?".

Also - I wasn't trying to build up the big ME (although I find it amusing that any discussion here always manages to drag him in - kinda like Clinton he's easy to demonize . I just see similar parallels in the situation of 'the Company' now as then and I repeat:

So since we seem to be having a major case of Deja-vu 20 years later, where are we going to find our FW/big ME team today? And perhaps more importantly, where are the Bass brother equivalents?

 

[DisneyKidds]

airlarry....

But the arguments in favor of Epcot being a 1/2 day park and relating that to other parks will not work.

Of course not. Epcot is not a half day park and I wouldn't be foolish enough to argue as such. But I still maintain that no park within WDW is a half day park if you do anything close to everything offered. Perhaps we have to stop saying half day park and talk about it in terms that Epcot is a more complete park, or AK is not as complete a park as the others. You might get much fewer arguments there. But half day parks? Please.

HB2K....

The difference is Dumbo has a story & purpose. You get to fly in the flying elephant. I was unaware of the fairy tale which dinosaurs fly.

I know, I know (and knew someone would go there). Dumbo ties into the movie and therefore has a purpose. However, while that makes it special, it isn't the only reason it it is popular. Our DD has yet to see the movie, but she is as taken with Dumbo as anyone else. Go ahead, pick on the dinosaurs, it is the place you can make a point. But you lumped Triceratops and Aladdin together and I assume you continue to speak regarding both as you further your point. Aladdin has just as much a story and purpose as Dumbo, but it is criticized because it is cheap, carny and unoriginal. You know what, only the unoriginal part can't be said about Dumbo. I don't see anything wrong with giving people more of something that has proven to be so popular.

Ok, where is Baron to say 'Ah Ha! Exactly!! You've got it!! It is popular so it makes them money, and all Disney wants to do is make money as opposed to give us new and original entertainment'. Am I doing better Baron?

I, for one, enjoy having a few more rides that my young children can enjoy. I think that additions like those are a good thing, so long as they aren't the only additions. Unless, that is, they are minor additions to an already 'complete' park - then it might be ok to be the only addition. Yes, Triceratops was reaching and has no tie in, other than to Dino Land. However, we enjoy having the ride available. What theme would you have had them used if they made a decision that a spinner would be a nice addition to provide another ride and some more entertainment value for the kiddies?

p.s. Baron, you can hardly say these rides were an increase the bottom line decision. Perhaps a cheap way to add something, but they added something to enhance the experience of a slice of the visiting public, not make more money.

 

[DisneyFanGuy]

Just a quickie. I visited Epcot in 1982 with two 21 year old friends. We spent two days there and didn't see or do everything. 1/2 day? It's maybe a 1/2 day if you "drink your way around the world showcase" and need to nap. I have done that too, but that's another story............