Monorail Operating Costs and Reliability

[sachilles]

Google earth shows a barge with crane on the other side of the canal. Poly bungalows are in a state of construction at the time of the sat photos. Can only hope they put it off for a construction phase. Can't imagine that water show has a lot longer to live either. Seems like it would be a quick hit. However if there are other plans for that real estate, I can see why they've put it off.

 

[rteetz]

Google earth shows a barge with crane on the other side of the canal. Poly bungalows are in a state of construction at the time of the sat photos. Can only hope they put it off for a construction phase. Can't imagine that water show has a lot longer to live either. Seems like it would be a quick hit. However if there are other plans for that real estate, I can see why they've put it off.

The water pageant has lived since the beginning. It was originally temporary. It was built to entertain the guests staying at the contemporary and poly for the opening of WDW because the big name guests were staying at those two resorts. Disney found that during that opening people were stopping and watching it so its stayed ever since.

 

[manning]

Too bad this wasn't around when Disney World was built. Would be very flexible. Stations built on station spurs. This would not interrupt flow. Just think you get on at Boardwalk and go to any location and not have to make transfers.

 

[KYMickey]

Google earth shows a barge with crane on the other side of the canal. Poly bungalows are in a state of construction at the time of the sat photos. Can only hope they put it off for a construction phase. Can't imagine that water show has a lot longer to live either. Seems like it would be a quick hit. However if there are other plans for that real estate, I can see why they've put it off.

that barge was there for the construction of the bungalows and for a couple of other things around the lagoon. It was also gone recently according to reports by several other people. It also really wouldn't take a barge to build a bridge across the canal.

 

[DDLand]

There's only one reason Spaceship Earth won't go away, and it's not because of a strong devotion. Even if Disney wanted to get rid of it they couldn't.

Whether it was intended or not when Epcot was built Disney put themselves in a pickle with Spaceship Earth - it overhangs the only realistic way in or out for the masses. Yes folks can exit by the Beach Club, but the whole park can't exit through there. If you shut down Spaceship Earth with plans of a massive overhaul or structural change - basically anything that requires blocking off the area - then you've blocked the main entrance and exit. If there was a dangerous situation I'm sure folks could be escorted through a maze of side pathways near The Living Seas or Universe of Energy, but it would be far from efficient and nothing that Disney could do on a daily basis.

Disney, whether they like it or not, is stuck with it and the limited options they have with changes.

I'm talking more specifically about the ride inside. There's never been any talk as far as I know to pull down the entire structure. Basically they wanted to gut the thing and rebuild a thrill ride inside of it. It was only do to the cheapness of Disney and because Siemens saw its value that it's still here. Siemens refused to change it, and saved the classic. That's when it underwent the Judy Dench renovation.

The point around the use of the bus line between the three resorts was to illustrate that the monorail isn't needed anymore should Joe and Jane Family staying at the Grand Floridian decide on a Chef Mickey's character breakfast. They now have an option other than the monorail to get there. I don't think it was ever intended to service folks at the TTC. Further, someone else in this thread pointed out that there has to be a group of buses on reserve so to speak should the monorail be unavailable, so the infrastructure is more or less already in place. Don't think in millions of guests to be shuttled - think of how many per day need to be shuttled. Again I don't think it's that massive. Keep in mind that in the last year or two Disney expanded the bus terminal at the Magic Kingdom. There's plenty of space there to expand further. Lots of bus space at the TTC too, and a nice little corner for expansion if needed.

Once again, nothing is sacred. If there isn't a reasonable rate of return financially I'm sure its future is questioned.

Then why do they have an express line? The only two stops are TTC and MK. If it's not intended to service TTC they have a funny way of showing it. I use the TTC parking lot frequently to get to the Magic Kingdom and I see more people board Monorails there then anywhere else beside MK itself. It's intended to serve primarily those guests. I'm not convinced that on the 4th or labor day it could honestly handle the demands that are being made on the system. Those bus stops fill up pretty quick just with Resort guests. I don't want to think about all the the single day guests too. I also can only imagine the complaints. You park out in the hinterlands of TTC parking and then you board a tram. Then once you get off the tram you board a bus. Monorails are okay because people like them. There would be massive backlash.

 

[DDLand]

Too bad this wasn't around when Disney World was built. Would be very flexible. Stations built on station spurs. This would not interrupt flow. Just think you get on at Boardwalk and go to any location and not have to make transfers.

I like it. My personnel favorite is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULTra_(rapid_transit)#Heathrow_Terminal_5

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140910-hands-off-with-heathrows-pods

There are some great options.

 

[wallrock]

Then why do they have an express line? The only two stops are TTC and MK. If it's not intended to service TTC they have a funny way of showing it. I use the TTC parking lot frequently to get to the Magic Kingdom and I see more people board Monorails there then anywhere else beside MK itself. It's intended to serve primarily those guests. I'm not convinced that on the 4th or labor day it could honestly handle the demands that are being made on the system. Those bus stops fill up pretty quick just with Resort guests. I don't want to think about all the the single day guests too. I also can only imagine the complaints. You park out in the hinterlands of TTC parking and then you board a tram. Then once you get off the tram you board a bus. Monorails are okay because people like them. There would be massive backlash.

The route I was referring to in this case was the resort loop, not the express. I should have made that clear.

The backlash concern...we're always going in circles with this. The only backlash that Disney would concern themselves with is people closing their pocketbooks. That won't happen in Orlando.

 

[BlackMagicWoman]

I'm in the middle of this debate. IMO Disney isn't closing the monorail. It's beyond iconic. It is a reason why people pick 7 seas lagoons resorts. It would damage their brand to get rid of it. It isn't the skyway.

That being said, it won't be expanded either. I could actually see it becoming restricted to certain times to reduce cost. Busses are the wave of the future. There will be more buses

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I'm not even disagreeing with this point..

But I don't think it effects booking or travel except in unique circumstances.

$8000 for a week and tickets at poly with the monorails?
No problem

$8000 for a week and tickets at poly with only buses and boats?
DEAL BREAKER!!! no way!

???

I don't see it.

You can certainly point out the monorail is an experience...

But it is a fleeting/ passing one if you're honest with yourselves.

Well your entitled to your opinion, I see it making a difference with a lot of guests, especially those new to WDW OR don't visit all that often.

AKK

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Well your entitled to your opinion, I see it making a difference with a lot of guests, especially those new to WDW OR don't visit all that often.

AKK

I just don't see how you believe that the monorail would matter to those that have never been there...it's not like they use if as a selling point in this day and age

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I just don't see how you believe that the monorail would matter to those that have never been there...it's not like they use if as a selling point in this day and age

Just the point, it is a Disney Icon, people love it as most people only get to ride a Monorail at Disney. It the Monorail is under going maintainece, guests howl about it.....howl disappointed they are....post after post, goes on and on.

Logic, you visit very often, about the interest in the monorail has worn off for you....but not for most guests.

We will just have top agree to disagree......but I feel my proof stands.

AKK

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I just think you're overestimating "icons" in this day and age.

I go for the food... What's left of it...and the jogging scenery...

Most...go for the parks...

Few... Go for the monorails.

I think icons are becoming less of an issue... Except the PRECIOUS...of course.

Only time well tell...new trains, beam replacements, then the monorail isn't going anywhere...

Anything less? Killshot

Don't discount this "north parking lot" talk either.
We don't know what that could be...but it seems to be a little fire and not just smoke.
What if you no longer needed to get on at the TTC and cross the lagoon in a circuitous route?

The story hasn't been completely written yet.

 

[BlackMagicWoman]

New people are interested in the monorail. I'm going with like 10 newbies this time around. We are staying at the poly rather than the yacht club because they all want to be near the monorail. It baffles me because they are all from NYC. Let's take the subway in NYC and then take the subway in Florida.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

New people are interested in the monorail. I'm going with like 10 newbies this time around. We are staying at the poly rather than the yacht club because they all want to be near the monorail. It baffles me because they are all from NYC. Let's take the subway in NYC and then take the subway in Florida.

I can certainly see that...the question is how many on the whole? Is it statistically significant?

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I just think you're overestimating "icons" in this day and age.

I go for the food... What's left of it...and the jogging scenery...

Most...go for the parks...

Few... Go for the monorails.

I think icons are becoming less of an issue... Except the PRECIOUS...of course.

Only time well tell...new trains, beam replacements, then the monorail isn't going anywhere...

Anything less? Killshot

Don't discount this "north parking lot" talk either.
We don't know what that could be...but it seems to be a little fire and not just smoke.
What if you no longer needed to get on at the TTC and cross the lagoon in a circuitous route?

The story hasn't been completely written yet.

My friend it is fair to say of course the park, but they go for the monorails as well, for all the reasons I put forth. Newguests, regular guests, its a attraction in its own right

AKK

 

[George4]

After extensive looking through my books and materials, I can quote the following "Facts" about the monorail, which was the original intention of the post:

-The max capacity for the current Mark VI monorail train is 372 people.

-The trains run at various intervals, but about 5 minutes between trains is average, yield approximately 4,500 passengers per hour per train.

-There are typically 2 or 3 trains running on each loop (there are 3 loops) at a time during busy times of year. This yields an average capacity per loop of about 11,000-12,000 passengers per hour (lots of rounding here). There is at most two staff assigned to each monorail.

-Buses hold approximately 55 people (we've all been on some with more), and run every 15-20 minutes, with a complete loop taking close to 30 minutes for a bus. However, with approximately 374 buses available for service, the hourly capacity of the buses is a whopping 40,000 passengers per hour, but requiring 374 staff driving and an additional 10-20 staff to deal with routing buses to next locations.

-There are no costs directly tied to monorail in any of Disney's public reports. Those costs are buried in transportation, attraction and hotel costs (portions of monorail costs are in all 3 portions of their accounting policies).

-Construction cost in 1971 was $1 million per mile. Recent monorail projects in Las Vegas and Brazil (both licensed Disney technology and trains) ran closer to $100 million per mile on average. Disney doesn't have some of the same issues that these two places would, but it is safe to guess that the cost is well over $1 million per mile. Inflation alone would have the cost now at $6 million per mile, and that is probably grossly under cost.

-If you guess, and say that the cost is only $25 million per mile, and 2 loops around the property just to resorts would run around 50 miles, your cost is $1.25 billion, plus operations. At approximately $350,000 per bus, you would have to buy 3,500 buses to break even on the up front costs. Operations will save you some money.

As I look at those numbers, if those costs are for real, then the construction cost would have to come down by a factor of 10 to make it even a little bit worth considering. Disney just doesn't replace buses often enough to justify that cost differential. I hate that I am saying it, but I don't think it makes sense to expand the monorail on the property, much less to the airport and back from a purely financial perspective.

Would it be REALLY cool? Yes. Unless those construction costs can be lowered it just won't happen.

Dang. I really love the monorail.

 

[George4]

I should also add in that many resorts and parks already have monorail Right-of-ways allotted to them as a "just in case", but the costs seem fairly prohibitive.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

The Las Vegas and Brazil projects were political nightmares. They were also poorly designed involving massive urban problems and costs like many many stations.

Now that said, Today it will not be cheap. The advantages is Disney owns the land, rights of way, resorts and parks that the trains would go to. They can build as they want at each station and not dealing to any great amount with governments Not to mention plans and designs already done and manufacturers already having a jump on parts etc. The overall routes are not long and few stations.

All these factors keep the costs down.

Now that said....................do I think its likely the Monorail would be extended to the 2 remaining parks and all the resorts........................no, its still expensive!........I still believe a pod or light rail system is the way WDW will go. As I have supported before guests consisted Disney transportation as part of th show and the new pods and light rails will be great.

The bus system is overloaded now and will not be able to handle the future crowds.

 

[George4]

I don't disagree with you, I was trying to provide some facts from the original post. The ROW alone in Las Vegas especially was ridiculous and costly. Brazil has too many unknowns to really know how that cost boils down. The political and government structure alone probably drove a lot of the costs.

I do wonder if Disney could expand their trains to 7 or 8 cars, what the cost would be? I know there would be limitations in the Contemporary, but could other stations be expanded to handle the extra cars? that would increase capacity to almost 500 per train, almost a 25% improvement. Over the course of a day, that is a lot of additional passengers getting moved, with an incrementally small up front cost.

 

[BlackMagicWoman]

Obviously it's totally anecdotal evidence.

I personally would love to see a trolley/lightrail type of system. But we won't get that, we will get more buses, longer buses, maybe even double decker buses.