Mom on Trial - Leaves child in Car for minutes

this is stupid...cops can make a judgement call when it comes to this sort of thing,in this issue the cop could have talked to her, wrote her a ticket,wrote a notice to appear or just nothing...or in this case arrest (which was silly) my dh is a cop and would have given her a good talking to but not made her life hell by arresting her,SHE WAS DONATING MONEY TO POOR PEOPLE how much of a criminal is she? she should have checked her history to make sure she had no priors and no complaints of child abuse and if not let her go. JMO my dh has been to homes where there is dog poop molding on the floor with kids eating cases of vienna saugages and kids with bruises covering them....this is what people need to look at...oh and that idiot principal that left her baby in the car but remembered the donuts!she needs to go to prison..
 
We tempt fate everyday by driving our cars on a street with other cars. Or walking through a parking lot. Or leaving them with strangers at school.

Why isn't it the same? Why are theya automatically safer in a home? People break into homes and kidnap children. Children can wake up and wander out of the house.


Because its your home its not a car out in a public parking lot. You cant leave yoru kids alone for long periods of time either in most states, going out to get the mail is not leaving them alone, its a reaching and silly example.

I agree this should never have happened IF the facts are as they are reported, im trying to find an article on the entire incident and cant, I have read the police report is not being released either. She was charged with more than just child endangerment, something else went on here.
 
this is stupid...cops can make a judgement call when it comes to this sort of thing,in this issue the cop could have talked to her, wrote her a ticket,wrote a notice to appear or just nothing...or in this case arrest (which was silly) my dh is a cop and would have given her a good talking to but not made her life hell by arresting her,SHE WAS DONATING MONEY TO POOR PEOPLE how much of a criminal is she? she should have checked her history to make sure she had no priors and no complaints of child abuse and if not let her go. JMO my dh has been to homes where there is dog poop molding on the floor with kids eating cases of vienna saugages and kids with bruises covering them....this is what people need to look at...oh and that idiot principal that left her baby in the car but remembered the donuts!she needs to go to prison..

Completely agree with you, thats why I say something else entered into play here that we are not getting
 
What I dont' get is it seems like the child ended up being locked in the car a lot longer because of the police holding her up and arresting her.
 

Enforce. With an "e".

Maybe it was one of those cops who don't know the laws, like the difference between "assault" and "battery"...you just never know sometimes.

Thanks for the spelling lesson

Again it takes more than one officer for a case to go as far as it did, many people had to sign off on it to get to the point it did, not sure why you are ignoring that fact

I know police are the worse they all abuse their power blah blah blah..the reporters said it so it has to be all true
 
Make sure you put the lawmakers in there that create the laws that the police and DAs office inforce. They are not making up laws as they go along because the feel like it.
I absolutely agree. If the law is on the books and an officer is called to the scene, he has to act on it. If the officer left the scene believing the mother's story about being nearby, then the baby dies later on because it was left alone, he'd get blamed for leaving the scene. Since this is a no-win situation for that officer, he must follow protocol for his own, and the department's, protection.

Unfortunately, this is where the arrogant phrase "Zero Tolerance" and our inability to use common sense has gotten us. You want the government to control others whom you think are doing bad things. But you fail to realize that this kind of control applies to ALL OF US, not just the people we accuse of being bad.

So when the public's righteous indignation and baying for blood over a toddler's death from being left in a car for 8 hours leads them to vehemently support and applaud (without reading the fine print) a new law that says "NO child will be left alone in a vehicle for any length of time; parents will be prosecuted", they shouldn't be blaming a police officer for arresting them for running into a gas station to pay, taking the cart back to the corral, or walking up to the school to pick up the other child while their other child(ren) are left alone in the car.
 
Because its your home its not a car out in a public parking lot. You cant leave yoru kids alone for long periods of time either in most states, going out to get the mail is not leaving them alone, its a reaching and silly example.
IF the car was locked and IF she was standing a few feet away, I don't see how it's any different than walking out to the mail box. How many people lock thier doors when going to the mailbox?
 
But there is also the other side of the slippery slope if you say that this is OK.
If ten minutes with the car running but locked and mom within sight of the car, how about 15 minutes? Half an hour? What is the "cut off"?
And if 10 with her in the direct line of sight is OK, what about 2 minutes not in the line of sight?
And does the weather have anything to do with it? Is it OK for 5 mintues when it is 90 degrees out but OK for 30 minutes when it is 70?
What about where this is happening? Is there a difference whether it is at school or at Wal-Mart?

Personally, I don't know. I do think the law should be written in a way as to allow reasonable judgment on the part of the officer, but it most likely is not. I do know that as a kid I waited in the car a lot for 5 or 10 minutes here or there, but I don't think a parent could do that now without worrying about being labeled a child abuser.
 
I absolutely agree. If the law is on the books and an officer is called to the scene, he has to act on it. If the officer left the scene believing the mother's story about being nearby, then the baby dies later on because it was left alone, he'd get blamed for leaving the scene. Since this is a no-win situation for that officer, he must follow protocol for his own, and the department's, protection.

Unfortunately, this is where the arrogant phrase "Zero Tolerance" and our inability to use common sense has gotten us. You want the government to control others whom you think are doing bad things. But you fail to realize that this kind of control applies to ALL OF US, not just the people we accuse of being bad.

So when the public's righteous indignation and baying for blood over a toddler's death from being left in a car for 8 hours leads them to vehemently support and applaud (without reading the fine print) a new law that says "NO child will be left alone in a vehicle for any length of time; parents will be prosecuted", they shouldn't be blaming a police officer for arresting them for running into a gas station to pay, taking the cart back to the corral, or walking up to the school to pick up the other child while their other child(ren) are left alone in the car.

And what state laws are written that way? Most have leeway in them, and officers can use discretion.

This officer didn't seem to like the fact that the women didn't kowtow to her.
 
IF the car was locked and IF she was standing a few feet away, I don't see how it's any different than walking out to the mail box. How many people lock thier doors when going to the mailbox?

Your home is diffrent than your motor vehicle in a public place. Thats just how it is. Could you get hit by a falling satilite when you walk out to get your mail, sure you could, does that mean you never go get the mail?

Its pushing the issue and silly, IMO its not proving any points , its mocking a real law in the state which is a child can not be left alone in a vehicle for more than 10 minutes unattended, being 10 feet away is unattended.

These are horribly uncomfortable and tough calls for service that police officers have to go on, sometimes the parents are neglectful, have had kids left in vehicles, in the heat while the mother just ran into an office building, just ran in 30 minutes ago, how do I know the time? Thats how long it took her to get back to the car while the fire department opened the vehicle and watched after the kids.

You cant just use your judgement on these calls, its so so tricky with liablility, you have to do something, I said early on since a third party was involved I would have taken her into the station with the kids and hopefully had the husband respond investigated and let her go. Aparently things because dicey somewhere in this for her to have additional charged added on.

Would I have handled this the way this officer did given the fact we get in the news story, no way. Untill the whole story comes out, Im not going to be quick to resorting to all kinds of badmouthing and name calling of the officer that was involved.
 
And what state laws are written that way? Most have leeway in them, and officers can use discretion.

This officer didn't seem to like the fact that the women didn't kowtow to her.

Do you have a link to the article when it states the wman did not kowtow to her, im looking for an article that explains the entire story and cant find one
 
But there is also the other side of the slippery slope if you say that this is OK.
If ten minutes with the car running but locked and mom within sight of the car, how about 15 minutes? Half an hour? What is the "cut off"?
And if 10 with her in the direct line of sight is OK, what about 2 minutes not in the line of sight?
And does the weather have anything to do with it? Is it OK for 5 mintues when it is 90 degrees out but OK for 30 minutes when it is 70?
What about where this is happening? Is there a difference whether it is at school or at Wal-Mart?

Personally, I don't know. I do think the law should be written in a way as to allow reasonable judgment on the part of the officer, but it most likely is not. I do know that as a kid I waited in the car a lot for 5 or 10 minutes here or there, but I don't think a parent could do that now without worrying about being labeled a child abuser.

If your child is in your sight, they are not unattended, first of all.

Also, should you be arrested for letting your 8 year old go outside and play?

THESE ARE RIDICULOUS LAWS! SHAME ON THE POLICE OFFICER!'
 
I absolutely agree. If the law is on the books and an officer is called to the scene, he has to act on it. If the officer left the scene believing the mother's story about being nearby, then the baby dies later on because it was left alone, he'd get blamed for leaving the scene. Since this is a no-win situation for that officer, he must follow protocol for his own, and the department's, protection.

Unfortunately, this is where the arrogant phrase "Zero Tolerance" and our inability to use common sense has gotten us. You want the government to control others whom you think are doing bad things. But you fail to realize that this kind of control applies to ALL OF US, not just the people we accuse of being bad.

So when the public's righteous indignation and baying for blood over a toddler's death from being left in a car for 8 hours leads them to vehemently support and applaud (without reading the fine print) a new law that says "NO child will be left alone in a vehicle for any length of time; parents will be prosecuted", they shouldn't be blaming a police officer for arresting them for running into a gas station to pay, taking the cart back to the corral, or walking up to the school to pick up the other child while their other child(ren) are left alone in the car.

I agree. The problem with writing new laws to meet a perceived need is being specific enough to avoid being ruled unconstitutional due to vagueness, and yet not so all-encompassing as to ensnarl the innocent.

For instance:

The problem: unattended children dying in automobiles.
The solution: pass a law prohibiting children from being left alone in automobiles.

But how should such a law be phrased? You could be ‘exact’, and state that a child shall be considered by law to be ‘unattended’ if said child is left unsupervised in an automobile for a duration of not less than 10 minutes.

Ah! But in some places, such as Texas, 10 minutes is long enough to kill a child, if the car is sitting in 110 degree heat with the windows rolled up. If the car is parked yet running, and has an exhaust problem, 3 minutes can be long enough for carbon monoxide poisoning. A good car thief can steal any make of car within a minute (remember the Nicolas Gage move, Gone in Sixty Seconds?). As such, a specific duration problem will not meet the need.

I bet that many State’s statutes simply neglect to specify the length of time a child has to be in a car before being considered unattended. The law probably states something simple: a child inside a motor vehicle shall be considered to be unattended if an adult is not within the vehicle.

It is hard to distinguish, in creating a law, between the type of behavior the law is meant to prohibit (such as an adult leaving a child in a care for long periods of time) and behavior that most of a community would regard as being responsible and so not unlawful (as possibly in this case).

Usually these laws pop up due to the outrageous behavior of a single person: for instance, a mother drives to a casino and leaves her children inside the car while she goes inside and plays for eight straight hours. The children die due to heat. People are outraged, and demand new laws to deal with this situation. However, you can’t write a law saying that “It shall be against the law for women to drive to casinos and leave their children in the car for hours while the mother plays the slots”. Hence you come up with the more vague, all-encompassing law.

I have no doubt this woman will escape going to jail, or even being slapped on the wrist. Judges do have some discretion in these matters, a discretion which police officers are not usually entitled. Heck, if nothing else, a jury will probably quickly acquit her. I can’t see the district attorney trying hard to win a conviction (or even trying this case).
 
I have no doubt this woman will escape going to jail, or even being slapped on the wrist. Judges do have some discretion in these matters, a discretion which police officers are not usually entitled. Heck, if nothing else, a jury will probably quickly acquit her. I can’t see the district attorney trying hard to win a conviction (or even trying this case).

Exactly
 
I agree. The problem with writing new laws to meet a perceived need is being specific enough to avoid being ruled unconstitutional due to vagueness, and yet not so all-encompassing as to ensnarl the innocent.

For instance:

The problem: unattended children dying in automobiles.
The solution: pass a law prohibiting children from being left alone in automobiles.

But how should such a law be phrased? You could be ‘exact’, and state that a child shall be considered by law to be ‘unattended’ if said child is left unsupervised in an automobile for a duration of not less than 10 minutes.

Ah! But in some places, such as Texas, 10 minutes is long enough to kill a child, if the car is sitting in 110 degree heat with the windows rolled up. If the car is parked yet running, and has an exhaust problem, 3 minutes can be long enough for carbon monoxide poisoning. A good car thief can steal any make of car within a minute (remember the Nicolas Gage move, Gone in Sixty Seconds?). As such, a specific duration problem will not meet the need.

I bet that many State’s statutes simply neglect to specify the length of time a child has to be in a car before being considered unattended. The law probably states something simple: a child inside a motor vehicle shall be considered to be unattended if an adult is not within the vehicle.

It is hard to distinguish, in creating a law, between the type of behavior the law is meant to prohibit (such as an adult leaving a child in a care for long periods of time) and behavior that most of a community would regard as being responsible and so not unlawful (as possibly in this case).

Usually these laws pop up due to the outrageous behavior of a single person: for instance, a mother drives to a casino and leaves her children inside the car while she goes inside and plays for eight straight hours. The children die due to heat. People are outraged, and demand new laws to deal with this situation. However, you can’t write a law saying that “It shall be against the law for women to drive to casinos and leave their children in the car for hours while the mother plays the slots”. Hence you come up with the more vague, all-encompassing law.

I have no doubt this woman will escape going to jail, or even being slapped on the wrist. Judges do have some discretion in these matters, a discretion which police officers are not usually entitled. Heck, if nothing else, a jury will probably quickly acquit her. I can’t see the district attorney trying hard to win a conviction (or even trying this case).

Most laws aren't written quite this vaguely. If they were, you'd be guilty every time you got out of the car to walk around and let the kids out of their car seats.

Here's a link to an "advocate" listing of every state's laws.

http://www.harrisonshope.org/m_nav/legislation.html
 
In June 2002, a rebuttable presumption was added to the statute that any person who leaves a child six years of age or younger, unattended in a motor vehicle for more than ten minutes has committed a Class A misdemeanor.10 The statute further defines "unattended" as either not accompanied by someone fourteen years or older, or if accompanied by someone older than fourteen years the child must be within sight of that person.11 This addition to the statute was timely enacted during rash of incidents, highlighted by the media, involving parents who left their children unattended in vehicles in dangerously high temperatures for an extended period of time.12

http://www.dcba.org/brief/janissue/2004/northern0104.htm

So according to this information, the officer would have to say that the child was left unattended (ie out of the parent's sight) for longer than 10 minutes for the "rebuttable presumption" to come into play. Otherwise it looks like actual endangerment must be shown.

According to the facts as I read them, there was no endangerment present - the child was warm and safe; and unless there was something blocking her view, the child was not "unattended." Further more it seems she was not gone longer than 10 minutes, so the child was not "unattended" according to the information about the statute sited above.

Denae

ETA - the rebuttable presumption noted above has since been declared unconstitutional per IL Supreme Court Case. So the state must prove that the child was acualtl endangered - I don't think the facts support that conclusion.
 
THESE ARE RIDICULOUS LAWS! SHAME ON THE POLICE OFFICER!'
Sorry, but the police officer didn't create the law. Overwrought, over-emotional, knee-jerk reactionary people thinking they can save the world with more laws but what's really happening is that they are mad that they can't personally hang the bad parent who left their children in a hot car to die; they created the law.

The police merely enforce the laws created by the public. The shame belongs to the person who tells the officer to do his job to the person you judge it should be done to, but not to you because you have a good reason/excuse for what you just did. The law is the law and must be applied to everyone regardless.

Don't like it? Then stop creating and/or supporting these stupid laws. It's as simple as that.
 
I believe this mother was in the wrong. how did the police officer now what she was doing all she saw was a baby left in the car, she should have waited in the car while the girls took the money or got the baby out of the car. If that baby woke up she could have put the car in gear that car could have rollled and hit someone. It takes two seconds to get that baby out and put her back in. Next time is this mom going to say well I run into the store for one second I could see the car. I don't believe that she should go to jail but I really hope this is a wake up lessons for her
 
According to the facts as I read them, there was no endangerment present - the child was warm and safe; and unless there was something blocking her view, the child was not "unattended." Further more it seems she was not gone longer than 10 minutes, so the child was not "unattended" according to the information about the statute sited above.

Denae
The child was unattended. It was in a locked vehicle some distance away from the mother's attention.

If it had started to choke on something, the mother could not even have known so as to attend to it. If the mother was attending to the other children pouring change into a SA kettle, her sight wasn't on the child. If she was busy snapping photos, her sight wasn't on the child. We don't actually know how long the child was unattended, we only have one newspaper's accounting of how long someone guesses the mother was gone.

But the child was unattended in this circumstance.
 
Sorry, but the police officer didn't create the law. Overwrought, over-emotional, knee-jerk reactionary people thinking they can save the world with more laws but what's really happening is that they are mad that they can't personally hang the bad parent who left their children in a hot car to die; they created the law.

The police merely enforce the laws created by the public. The shame belongs to the person who tells the officer to do his job to the person you judge it should be done to, but not to you because you have a good reason/excuse for what you just did. The law is the law and must be applied to everyone regardless.

Don't like it? Then stop creating and/or supporting these stupid laws. It's as simple as that.

I totally agree that these laws are knee-jerk reactions to tragedies.

But the police officer has discretion. For some reason, she chose to beat this woman up (a disclaimer: I'll assume the newspaper story is true, and isn't leaving out glaring facts, like the mom was actually in the store shopping.)
 








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