Modern Feminism

[ZellyB]

I'm a feminist and proud of it. Like any movement, there is a broad spectrum of attitudes and beliefs about what it means and we as women so easily fall into the trap of being critical of each other and tearing each other down rather than supporting each other's choices.

We've made great strides in gender-equality in this country, but we are a far cry from having full and equal treatment in so many aspects of our lives and that is why I fully embrace the title of feminist. I think far too many women think the fight is over and there is nothing left to achieve and that kind of complacency is dangerous.

The whole SAHM vs working-outside-the-home mom is so damaging to women in general. If we can't find a way to be supportive of each other's choices (and the right choice is the right choice for that individual), we'll continually struggle to advance our gender's equality and that's certainly not what I want for my daughters' future.

I have several friends who chose to stay home. I chose to work outside the home. Both are legitimate and reasonable choices. What I fight for now as a feminist is finding ways to create a domestic environment that can support those choices and allow for those choices to change as our families grow and evolve. Too often now, the choice a woman makes to stay home with her kids while they are young can become a huge detriment to any professional aspirations she may have. Alternately, those of us who may choose to work, feel we must sacrifice much of what we would like to experience with our young children in order that we don't derail our careers. We need to join together to find ways to allow women who make either choice to have options for viable careers for the years following child rearing. And frankly, those discussions should extend to fathers as well who may want to have the same choices to be SAHDs. But as long as we fight each other, you can bet we won't be successful in fighting the societal system that forces these difficult choices.

 

[Diet Dr Chill]

I also consider myself a feminist. I'm 28 and not fiercely independent, but I certainly have an independent streak in me.

On a larger level, I support women's rights to choose. This goes for abortions, breast feeding, voting, working vs staying home, etc. no matter what a woman ends up doing - even if she is a stay at home mother/housewife, the point is that it was her decision vs 60 years ago when it wasn't.

On a more personal level, I'm thankful my husband is very respectful of me and my beliefs. Previously we worked at the same company as meteorologists, and almost 2 years ago we moved south and he is the main 'breadwinner', while I am pursuing a photography goal. despite this, he doesn't expect me to do everything around the house. I usually cook dinner because I love to cook. However, if I'm busy with editing a job, he makes dinner. We split the household chores to do what we each prefer - he does the wash, and I fold the clothes. He cleans up the kitchen after I've cooked or vice versa.

Before my wedding last year, everyone kept sending me thugs addressed as "The future Mrs. ____". I had never put much thought into the name change, and figured after I was married that I would get more excited about it. I never did. It just seemed to be a weird tradition that I didn't understand much, so I never changed my name. My husband was a little disappointed at first because he was excited that I'd have his name, but he also understood my decision and let me know he wanted me to do whatever I wanted. I got more flack from the women in my family than from anyone else. They said it was a disrespect to him and his family. Huh?! Either way, I kept my maiden name. My mom always asks me where I got this feminist side from. I just think women are intelligent enough to make their own decisions, and I stand my ground for that.

Pretty much.

The only schools of feminist thought I reject are the school of biological essentialism (woman defined by her biological functions such as pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, etc) and man hating extremists.

The first one might be hard to understand, but think about all the women in some circles that are chastised and thought less of for not being able to get pregnant, give birth ******lly, or be able to breastfeed. Especially if they choose not to do any of these things, that somehow is a decision that needs to be strongly discouraged. You are a bad woman/mother if you opt not to breastfeed or schedule a c-section, regardless of reason. Women who opt out of childbearing altogether are told they are not normal and natural women. I flat out reject that a woman (or mother) should be defined by how well she performs particular biological functions.

There are not seriously many of the second kind. I found one by accident one day on YT. They had some vids of people committing suicide for medical reasons. One of the 'best' ones was by a French feminist. I looked up some short information about her on Wiki. Apparently she believed it was impossible for a woman to be happy with a man and if she did seem happy, she was faking. She didn't think it was natural for a woman to want to be with a man. Sorry lady, don't subscribe to your school of having to be a lesbian to be a feminist either.

 

[chobie]

For me personally, it was comments from long time friends/acquaintances, a couple of professors, and to a lesser degree family members. So I knew their affiliations and ideologies at least somewhat from regular interaction with them. Work friends were the most vocal; we were all in a male-dominated field and I got many, many comments about how "women like me" are the reason employers discriminate against women, because we just can't be counted on not to leave at the first sign of pregnancy hormones.

And of course there's the internet. Look back at any SAH vs working moms topic on any board, even this one, and there is no shortage of posts that openly or subtly put down women who stay at home as less valuable and/or weaker than women who work.

Yes, but not all working moms who put down SAHMS are feminists. In fact I bet most would not consider themselves such. IMO, working moms who put down SAHMS on these boards are just women who are angry that they have husbands who either can't or won't support them being SAHMS, and they take it out on SAHMS.

Since I have been both, I have joined in on those threads, and I don't recall any of the criticism being about feminism. It's more about who does more work, who has it easier etc.

 

[Princess Dolly]

For me personally, it was comments from long time friends/acquaintances, a couple of professors, and to a lesser degree family members. So I knew their affiliations and ideologies at least somewhat from regular interaction with them. Work friends were the most vocal; we were all in a male-dominated field and I got many, many comments about how "women like me" are the reason employers discriminate against women, because we just can't be counted on not to leave at the first sign of pregnancy hormones.

And of course there's the internet. Look back at any SAH vs working moms topic on any board, even this one, and there is no shortage of posts that openly or subtly put down women who stay at home as less valuable and/or weaker than women who work.

Actually it works both ways on those threads. There have been stay at home moms coming down on working mom saying they are missing important milestones in their child's life, etc. I read those threads as a neutral third party observer since I have no children of my own. I really dislike the putdowns from both sides.

Yes, but not all working moms who put down SAHMS are feminists. In fact I bet most would not consider themselves such. IMO, working moms who put down SAHMS on these boards are just women who are angry that they have husbands who either can't or won't support them being SAHMS, and they take it out on SAHMS.

Since I have been both, I have joined in on those threads, and I don't recall any of the criticism being about feminism. It's more about who does more work, who has it easier etc.

I agree. I don't think feminism has anything to do with what goes on those threads.

 

[Mkrop]

Well, this feminist stayed home with her kids, and this feminists would like to see feminism embrace that choice as well. However, despite it's imperfections, the overall good feminism has brought to our society is one I am proud of and stand behind

I am happy you feel that way, like I said it is about choices and I do not feel the rhetoric that I hear from the current woman's lib group jives with my beliefs, if your do, I am happy for you.

Ok, you actually are apparently dismissing second-wave. New one on me, but have at it.

However, people you know saying something to you? Is not in any way a reflection on 'feminism and what it's become.'

Maybe I am misinformed of this second wave...I am not so sure what you are referring to, what I do know is that I read a lot of political stuff and the woman who claim to be feminist these days, and my personal experiences have me NOT identifying with these woman, why is that so hard to comprehend??? I think if we were allowed to get into nitty gritty details on politics you would know why I feel the way I do. I would love to even go deeper into the pro-life thing but I feel that would venture into an area we are not suppose to.

 

[Princess Dolly]

I'm a feminist and proud of it. Like any movement, there is a broad spectrum of attitudes and beliefs about what it means and we as women so easily fall into the trap of being critical of each other and tearing each other down rather than supporting each other's choices.

We've made great strides in gender-equality in this country, but we are a far cry from having full and equal treatment in so many aspects of our lives and that is why I fully embrace the title of feminist. I think far too many women think the fight is over and there is nothing left to achieve and that kind of complacency is dangerous.

The whole SAHM vs working-outside-the-home mom is so damaging to women in general. If we can't find a way to be supportive of each other's choices (and the right choice is the right choice for that individual), we'll continually struggle to advance our gender's equality and that's certainly not what I want for my daughters' future.

I have several friends who chose to stay home. I chose to work outside the home. Both are legitimate and reasonable choices. What I fight for now as a feminist is finding ways to create a domestic environment that can support those choices and allow for those choices to change as our families grow and evolve. Too often now, the choice a woman makes to stay home with her kids while they are young can become a huge detriment to any professional aspirations she may have. Alternately, those of us who may choose to work, feel we must sacrifice much of what we would like to experience with our young children in order that we don't derail our careers. We need to join together to find ways to allow women who make either choice to have options for viable careers for the years following child rearing. And frankly, those discussions should extend to fathers as well who may want to have the same choices to be SAHDs. But as long as we fight each other, you can bet we won't be successful in fighting the societal system that forces these difficult choices.

Excellent post.

 

[luvmy3]

I'm a feminist and proud of it. Like any movement, there is a broad spectrum of attitudes and beliefs about what it means and we as women so easily fall into the trap of being critical of each other and tearing each other down rather than supporting each other's choices.

We've made great strides in gender-equality in this country, but we are a far cry from having full and equal treatment in so many aspects of our lives and that is why I fully embrace the title of feminist. I think far too many women think the fight is over and there is nothing left to achieve and that kind of complacency is dangerous.

Just curious if you could give some example of the unequal treatment and those many aspects.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

As a mid-30s man, I agree with a lot of what newt2 was saying.

I believe that men and women should have equal rights. At this point, most of that has been fixed. But like racial civil rights, there are still little things here and there that need to be worked on. I think that about sums it up. There is too much baggage, though, associated with the term "feminist", which is why I think a lot of people shy away from the term.

I think a movement like feminism, thought, should try to be as much of an umbrella organization as possible. There should be some core beliefs that are easily acceptable by everyone, while avoid more controversial issues.

 

[MoonFaerie]

You know, I do have something to say about that. My mother worked for social services for a long time, and my family is full of cops. We have all sadly seen out share of domestic abuse and rape cases, but we also know the other side of it. These cases DO happen to men, a lot more often than is reported, and even those who report it are often told sorry, can't do anything. My brother was involved in a relationship where there was a LOT of domestic abuse. But it was never him hitting her. She would beat him mercilessly, stabbed him once, and constantly threw heavy things (plates, bowls, etc.) at him. We finally called the cops on her, and we were told "good luck." The cop tried, but there wasn't much chance of getting anything done. The second time we had to call, they arrested her, but let her loose within 24 hours. Because it was a guy being beaten, there wasn't much recourse. How is that equal?

You're saying all of that to me like I'm ok with it. You do realize feminism =/= man-hating, right? I'm not ok with victims being powerless, whether they're female, male, trans, etc. And you're right, it isn't equal. Which is the entire problem. You know why it's under-reported and ignored when it happens to men? Because women are still considered the weaker, lesser sex, with a bit of homophobia thrown in for extra fun. "A real man wouldn't let some little woman beat him up. He must be a *insert homophobic slur*"

 

[ZellyB]

Just curious if you could give some example of the unequal treatment and those many aspects.

Sure. Not a lot of time though, so I have to be brief.

On average, women are still significantly underpaid for performing the same job duties as men. This is even with similar levels of education and experience.

Glass ceilings in most companies (particularly in those careers that lead to the highest paying salaries) women are woefully represented. Just do some looking at the numbers of CEO positions held in large companies and see the disparity in gender representation. The good ole boy network is alive and well in this country.

Government representation. Again take a quick look at the make-up government representation and there's a distinct disconnect between the population gender mix versus that of our government officials.

Benefit packages that take into account gender needs of women versus men. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned birth control (which is an easy one to tackle for opponents of equal treatment due to the religious/political polarization), but other types of care like screening mammography versus PSA testing or coverage provided for tubal ligation versus vasectomy and the costs of those procedures.

I'm not an expert nor do I claim to be one, but I do live and work in a field that is dominated by women in the workforce. Yet our leadership is over 80% male dominated. It's not hard to figure out that it's not just about luck of the draw on that, but rather societal barriers that make it difficult often for women to advance versus men.

 

[MoonFaerie]

But you are stopping the history lesson...you need to continue on to where the feminist movement took on leaders who didnt represent all women, the ones who burn their bras etc. The feminist movement was a great thing, and as I said before I am eternally grateful for all those who pioneered before me to afford me certain things, but somewhere along the line they lost their focus and leaned more towards radical ideas. I wouldnt want to touch NOW with a 10 ft pole, they do not represent who I am as a person today. Many on here have given examples of how we were put down for our choices, the choices that I believe those early pioneers fought so hard to get for us. Somewhere along this history lesson, the woman who believe a certain way and would tear other woman down for their choices, have taken over the feminist movement so where it now has a negative conotation

And then you'd have to continue past that wave of feminism to the current one. You're talking about second-wave feminism, which was decades ago. Bra-burning feminism is NOT modern feminism and hasn't been for a long time.

 

[laura.anne]

Since NOW has been brought up a decent amount in this post, I thought I would share the link to their "key issues" page. http://www.now.org/issues/

For those of y'all that are interested in their take on SAHM vs. WOHM, you can click on "Mothers/Caregivers Economic Rights" on that page. I think some of you may (?) be pleasantly surprised.

ETA: I know at least one person in this thread has said that they feel NOW doesn't support them because one of their listed issues is "fighting the right." I think that's ok for you (whoever it was, I can't remember) to feel that way, and I'm not saying NOW is representative of all women's views, but I just wanted to share that link in case anyone who hasn't looked into what NOW believes was interested. I really don't want to start a political debate or anything.

 

[chobie]

You're saying all of that to me like I'm ok with it. You do realize feminism =/= man-hating, right? I'm not ok with victims being powerless, whether they're female, male, trans, etc. And you're right, it isn't equal. Which is the entire problem. You know why it's under-reported and ignored when it happens to men? Because women are still considered the weaker, lesser sex, with a bit of homophobia thrown in for extra fun. "A real man wouldn't let some little woman beat him up. He must be a *insert homophobic slur*"

Exactly. Any under reporting of female on male violence is not a result of feminism.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

And I have had tons of people in my real life chastise choices I make, maybe you have never personally done it but it does happen all the time. I have been told by people I thought were good friends that I wasted my college degree, and have had them directly say I am shame to all women!

And all you have to do is hang out on these boards enough to see how woman are put down by other woman for their choices every time
a SAHM vs working mom thread comes up. I have listened to NOW and I do not identify with many of the things they stand for, I have listened to the liberal agenda which is where I believe modern feminisim has evolved to and I dont agree with much of it. I am pro life, and I believe that little clump of cells is life from day one, but in many feminist eyes, I am agaisnt woman, yet for me the issue is actually much more complicated and I am not truly black and white on the issue but I have been told once again that my viewpoint is dead wrong and I am setting woman back by not allowing them a choice.

I think you are ignorant as to what NOW is all about. A quick glance came up with this gem:

We the undersigned believe the time is long overdue for our nation to recognize the economic contribution of mothers and all those who perform unpaid care work -- and to acknowledge the value and importance of caregiving to the stability and growth of our economy and our quality of life.

We urge you to support legislation to increase work/life balance, such as proportional benefits for part-time workers, and to reduce the economic risks for those who take time out of the paid workforce to raise a child or care for a loved one.


Additionally they are working on bringing a spotlight on sexual crimes against women in the US military.

For anyone who was made to feel inferior by another women - THAT IS NOT FEMINISM. Real feminists today believe in equal rights for all -and that includes the wonderful idea that people can make their OWN decisions.

 

[luvmy3]

Sure. Not a lot of time though, so I have to be brief.

On average, women are still significantly underpaid for performing the same job duties as men. This is even with similar levels of education and experience.

Glass ceilings in most companies (particularly in those careers that lead to the highest paying salaries) women are woefully represented. Just do some looking at the numbers of CEO positions held in large companies and see the disparity in gender representation. The good ole boy network is alive and well in this country.

Government representation. Again take a quick look at the make-up government representation and there's a distinct disconnect between the population gender mix versus that of our government officials.

Benefit packages that take into account gender needs of women versus men. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned birth control (which is an easy one to tackle for opponents of equal treatment due to the religious/political polarization), but other types of care like screening mammography versus PSA testing or coverage provided for tubal ligation versus vasectomy and the costs of those procedures.

I'm not an expert nor do I claim to be one, but I do live and work in a field that is dominated by women in the workforce. Yet our leadership is over 80% male dominated. It's not hard to figure out that it's not just about luck of the draw on that, but rather societal barriers that make it difficult often for women to advance versus men.

Okay, see this is where the feminist movement loses me. We woman have the choice, right and ability to do whatever we want, and while those societal barriers may make things "difficult", they are not forced upon us, we are not disallowed to do something just because we are women.

 

[Mkrop]

And then you'd have to continue past that wave of feminism to the current one. You're talking about second-wave feminism, which was decades ago. Bra-burning feminism is NOT modern feminism and hasn't been for a long time.

Then where should one look for a modern day representation....where should I be reading.



Then I believe modern feminism needs better PR, bc you all claim it is about choice, when many of us have said that we feel it isnt about choice, it is about us choosing THEIR choice.

All I can say is that in MY experience as a white suburban SAHM to two boys, is that what has been represented to ME as feminism is the radical extreme, the ones who tell us over and over again what a disservice we are doing to our fellow woman if we vote a certain way. Every time a strong female conservative runs for office she is torn to shreds for her ideals, but when someone on the left, who is supposedly super pro woman runs, then we should be racing each other to the polls to vote her in.

 

[Robinrs]

So because we disagree with you, it's because we were "trained" to give up our power? Uhm, nope, sorry. I completely disagree. I rarely label myself as a feminist, I see myself as an equalist. Feminism does have a negative connotation with it, because personally, I've encountered more radicals than normal people who label themselves so. These women have told me that when I was considering nursing as a career, that I was doing an "injustice to my sex" by not becoming a doctor. These women also over heard me mention that eventually I would like to be a SAHM for a year or two, and said I was weakening what they fought for. So no, I do not want to use their name of feminist. I want to use equality, because that's what matters. The fight isn't over, but the feminist movement has changed in to something I don't like, so I choose not associate with it. This doesn't discredit or mean I'm ignoring the past at all, just that I disagree with the current take on it.

Did you see the word SOME or do you just want to ignore it?

Every single thought and premise has a mild, moderate and extremist view, everything from the Mommy wars to corporate management to religion and politics. Heck, I call myself a Christian, but NO I do not burn down abortion centers nor agree with Chick Fil A. I call myself a liberal but I'm radically conservative on crime. We have many levels of thought in every ideal, it doesn't take away the title.

 

[CandyMandy]

An unanticipated outcome of one of the major benefits of feminism --growth in opportunity for women -- has been a massive decline in our birth rate. And that is NOT good.

Bear with me for a moment in a short lesson in demography, specifically about something called the fertility rate:

The fertility rate is the average number of chlidren an adult woman in a given country has during her lifetime. And the math around it is simple:

• For the population to stay level, a country must have a feritility rate of 2.1
• If the rate gets above 2.1, the population will grow.
• If the rate falls below 2.1, the population will decline.

Right now in the U.S., our fertlity rate is at 2.06 - just below "replacement" rate. However, that represents an ongoing, significant decline since the mid 1960s, and projections show that we will be well below replacement rate within a decade. Or put more bluntly, sometime around 2040 our population will start shrinking.

And no, immigration will not "make up the deficit." The birth rates among domestic Hispanics and Asians are also dropping (new arrivals adopt the values and behaviors of the locals). And it is extremely unlikely that America is going to move towards accepting the level of immigration that would be required to keep us at replacement rate; one demographer characterized those rates as being equivalent to "populating a new New York City every 8 months for 20 years".

But back to feminism and how it relates to the drop in our fertlity rate. In addition to the development and widespread use of birth control, one of the things feminism has wrought is increased educational attainment for women. And she more educated a woman is, the less likely she is to have children and the fewer children she will have if she eventually conceives.

And here's the last part of the school lesson.

A declining population is defacto an aging population.

An aging population is defacto a less productive population.

Which is why no society with a declining population has ever prospered.

NONE.

 

[chobie]

Then where should one look for a modern day representation....where should I be reading.

Then I believe modern feminism needs better PR, bc you all claim it is about choice, when many of us have said that we feel it isnt about choice, it is about us choosing THEIR choice.

All I can say is that in MY experience as a white suburban SAHM to two boys, is that what has been represented to ME as feminism is the radical extreme, the ones who tell us over and over again what a disservice we are doing to our fellow woman if we vote a certain way. Every time a strong female conservative runs for office she is torn to shreds for her ideals, but when someone on the left, who is supposedly super pro woman runs, then we should be racing each other to the polls to vote her in.

Yes, if a woman runs on a platform that would take away choices for other women then the fact she is trying to hold back other women would negate the "atta girl" she should be getting for being a strong woman trying to get ahead in a still mostly male dominated profession (politics),

 

[Colleen27]

Okay, see this is where the feminist movement loses me. We woman have the choice, right and ability to do whatever we want, and while those societal barriers may make things "difficult", they are not forced upon us, we are not disallowed to do something just because we are women.

Frankly, I'm not convinced that it is primarily societal barriers stopping women from holding more positions of power. I think it is that very often women make choices that preclude those positions. Getting to the highest levels, whether in industry or in politics, takes a single-minded focus and in my experience that is far more the domain of men. Women tend to be more concerned with work-life balance, more of a "work to live" mindset rather than "live to work", and that way of thinking isn't conducive to climbing the corporate ladder.

Now, it could be argued that if society's views on men as primary caregiver were different women would be more free to focus on career in the way men traditionally have, secure in the knowledge of a spouse at home caring for the children and household. But I'm not sure even that makes much difference. A number of women in my family and circle of friends have/had a stay-at-home husband for all or part of their child-rearing years and still weren't interested in long hours or aggressive advancement.