Modern Feminism

[MoonFaerie]

Still, feminism is not the problem. The problem what two posters above me stayed, corporate culture that does support having more kids, e.g, lack of living wage jobs, healthcare, maternity/paternity leaves, affordable child are, affordable college etc.

Let's start there and maybe educated men and women would choose to bring more children into this world.

In the meantime, let's be open to more immigrants as well.

Or what is it you suggest? Because only a small percent of the population can afford to have a family of five sons while the mom stays at he.

And let's not forget about the high divorce rates. The poverty rates for single moms are much higher, even more so for non-white single mother families.

 

[pat fan]

Maybe I am misinformed of this second wave...I am not so sure what you are referring to, what I do know is that I read a lot of political stuff and the woman who claim to be feminist these days, and my personal experiences have me NOT identifying with these woman, why is that so hard to comprehend???
What women are you talking about specifically? Who? Like what feminist writers are you reading?

Maybe your replies to this OP and others can give you a glimpse as to why some people stay away from the "feminist" label. Why can't she/I not want to be associated with that movement? Why do we have to agree with you? There have been a lot of posts here that sound a little outraged that some of us don't want to be associated with the "movement". Why? If we are free to choose, why does it bother you (general you) so much?

 

[luvmy3]

Again. To quote myself -



These are not 'well, so what, women CAN do those things,' any more than someone would say that if, in 1963, you'd showed them the token black student at a university and said 'see, black folk CAN go, there are just not many who do, so?' The vastly unbalanced representation has major effects, it also isn't happenstance.

Why are you talking about 1963, this is 2012. Take a walk around any college campus these days, its not a rarity to see women students. If women aren't enrolled in college it isn't because they aren't allowed, its because they choose not to go (for a variety of reasons). I'm okay with them making that choice, so that is why I will never refer to myself as a feminist.

ETA, I will quote myself "I'm an equalist" I believe in equal rights for men and women, including what they are paid. However the quote you took from me was specifically about societal barriers.

 

[CandyMandy]

Fertility rates have many factors.

Correct. Many you listed have to do with history (movement from agricultural to industrial society, etc.)

The only roll feminism plays in this is championing women's job equality.

That's a biggie, but not the only one. I referenced equality relative to educational attainment, because (a) it is still the best predictor of income (one of the big metrics many use to assess where we are on gender equality) and (b) has been conclusively proven to have an inverse relationship to fertility.

One could also argue that a philosophy of self actualization, which is the part of the narrative of some (some, not all) descriptions of modern feminism here has an impact. There is evidence out there that the more ardent the focus on "me," the less involvement one is likely to have in religion. And that plays into fertility, because as a society we are basicaly bifurcating in two segments:

• A secular segment that prefers small families or no families
• A religious segment that prefers larger families

(Small equates to two children or less, larger equates to more than two children).

As one observer put it, "nowadays, when you see a family with three or more kids, they are making a theological statement."

And please, enough of the mis-translation of what I am saying (the above is not a plea for everyone to go to church regularly and have five children). It is simply underlining what I said at the beginning of my particpation in this discussion: one of the big unintended outcomes of feminism is an impact on the fertility rate - and the latter has deep consequences for the future..

 

[SaraJayne]

No offense
In a nutshell the second part of that sentence. They lost all respect for themselves when they told men not to respect them. I know it's not a popular opinion, but there you have it. My opinion has nothing to do with the world, workforce, politics or anything like that. I am talking strictly about the relationship (generic) between men and women.

I'm still waiting for an answer to what the bolded means? Are you coyly referring to sex?

 

[chobie]

Why are you talking about 1963, this is 2012. Take a walk around any college campus these days, its not a rarity to see women students. If women aren't enrolled in college it isn't because they aren't allowed, its because they choose not to go (for a variety of reasons). I'm okay with them making that choice, so that is why I will never refer to myself as a feminist.

And again, your idea that feminism stands for all women MUST go to college comes from these random mystery feminists who made comments to you at some point in your life?

 

[luvmy3]

Maybe your replies to this OP and others can give you a glimpse as to why some people stay away from the "feminist" label. Why can't she/I not want to be associated with that movement? Why do we have to agree with you? There have been a lot of posts here that sound a little outraged that some of us don't want to be associated with the "movement". Why? If we are free to choose, why does it bother you (general you) so much?

Exactly

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

I am very interested in hearing both feminists' and non-feminists' opinions on Affirmative Action as it applies to women. Is that something that falls into the too political category, though? If so, please disregard as I do not wish to get this thread deleted.

 

[luvmy3]

And again, your idea that feminism stands for all women MUST go to college comes from these random mystery feminists who made comments to you at some point in your life?

Do you have me confused with somebody else, or are you just taking my posts to a pp out of context to try to make some point?

 

[cornflake]

Maybe your replies to this OP and others can give you a glimpse as to why some people stay away from the "feminist" label. Why can't she/I not want to be associated with that movement? Why do we have to agree with you? There have been a lot of posts here that sound a little outraged that some of us don't want to be associated with the "movement". Why? If we are free to choose, why does it bother you (general you) so much?

She's free to be associated with whatever. She SAID she wasn't sure what I was referring to and that the feminists she's reading are saying some different things. Hence, I asked who those were. ??

Why are you talking about 1963, this is 2012. Take a walk around any college campus these days, its not a rarity to see women students. If women aren't enrolled in college it isn't because they aren't allowed, its because they choose not to go (for a variety of reasons). I'm okay with them making that choice, so that is why I will never refer to myself as a feminist.

Every one of those statistics was current to 2012. I was talking about 1963 because I was making an analogy to the Civil Rights Movement.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

Maybe your replies to this OP and others can give you a glimpse as to why some people stay away from the "feminist" label. Why can't she/I not want to be associated with that movement? Why do we have to agree with you? There have been a lot of posts here that sound a little outraged that some of us don't want to be associated with the "movement". Why? If we are free to choose, why does it bother you (general you) so much?

 

[MoonFaerie]

Maybe your replies to this OP and others can give you a glimpse as to why some people stay away from the "feminist" label. Why can't she/I not want to be associated with that movement? Why do we have to agree with you? There have been a lot of posts here that sound a little outraged that some of us don't want to be associated with the "movement". Why? If we are free to choose, why does it bother you (general you) so much?

You don't have to agree with us, but we're also free to defend ourselves against your false stereotypes.

Being a feminist is what I consider to be one of my defining characteristics. If I look at how I am, what I stand for, feminism sums up most of it. However, by the definitions that the anti-feminists are working with in this thread, I wouldn't be a feminist.

 

[luvmy3]

She's free to be associated with whatever. She SAID she wasn't sure what I was referring to and that the feminists she's reading are saying some different things. Hence, I asked who those were. ??



Every one of those statistics was current to 2012. I was talking about 1963 because I was making an analogy to the Civil Rights Movement.

Okay, but again, the quote you took from me was about societal barriers being a difficulty, not about civil rights.
While I'd love to continue I have to take my dses to their doctor, who happens to be a woman

 

[chobie]

Maybe your replies to this OP and others can give you a glimpse as to why some people stay away from the "feminist" label. Why can't she/I not want to be associated with that movement? Why do we have to agree with you? There have been a lot of posts here that sound a little outraged that some of us don't want to be associated with the "movement". Why? If we are free to choose, why does it bother you (general you) so much?

No we're just a little taken aback by ridiculous characterizations of feminists along with no one willing to give up any of the right/ opportunities feminism has provided but not wiling to give feminists credit where credit is due.

It seems like the anti-feminists are basing their ideas of what feminism stands for on outdated characterizations and hurt feelings from women they have known along the way, rather than what modern feminism actually stands for.

For example, feminism does not mean women can't shave their armpits, have to burn their bras, must go to college, must only have 2 kids or less, must work outside the home etc.

 

[CandyMandy]

As it is, despite declining fertility rates, the world's population is still exploding and we are on track for 9 billion by 2050. I am sorry, but I don't think the world needs any more people for any reason.

Fine - so how about agreeing to keep our population the size it is (e.g. replacement rate), instead of niavely assuming that by supporting the decline in our fertility rate (and population size) you are somehow "helping the globe?" Are you against us being at a fertilty rate of 2.1?

For the only thing you and others of the same mindset are accomplishing by wanting our population to decline (not stay level, decline) is condemning future generations here to living in a less viable, prosperous society. A country dominated by very elderly people is not the "peaceful, childless" nirvana some think.

Or put another way, if you really care about global population control, turn your efforts and attention to sub-Saharan Africa. Their fertility rates there are off the chart.

 

[chobie]

Do you have me confused with somebody else, or are you just taking my posts to a pp out of context to try to make some point?

Yes I did confuse you with some one else, sorry.

What does choosing or not choosing to go to college have to do with feminism?

 

[Mkrop]

She's free to be associated with whatever. She SAID she wasn't sure what I was referring to and that the feminists she's reading are saying some different things. Hence, I asked who those were. ??

Every one of those statistics was current to 2012. I was talking about 1963 because I was making an analogy to the Civil Rights Movement.

Once again I am going to apologize for my post(I went back and reread it) because I typed it too quick before I had to run out the door...I read lots of political stuff and watch lots of political shows, and the women they usually have on these shows, I dont have any names, who claim they are feminist, dont really represent who I am. I do not read any feminist blogs or books so if there was a something deemed "a second wave" I really have no reference point, which you still have not answered what that is.

Like I said I am really struggling diving into this thread much further bc of the banned topics, but another poster posted about the strong conservative woman being torn to shred bc they are anit- this or anti-that. This is where I have issue, just because you are pro something, does not mean you are anti other things. Just bc you are promarriage and family does not immediately mean you are antigay. (Iactually support gay marriage, this is more statement of the candidates) Like the example I gave of being pro life, that is who I am, and that is what I support, I dont see the law being repealed, and I am glad that woman who need it for medical reasons or rape have a safe place to have this done, but since I am against using it for a form of birth control, I am viewed as anti choice....I am not anti choice I am pro life, but many times I find certain people think this means I am anti woman, and I am not fighting for woman's rights or so I have been told by friends and the media, that I am not a feminist and that I am wrong. Many times my opinions are not valued by people who are on the liberal side of things and my friends who are on that side of the political coin feel strongly that they are feminist.

 

[DopeyDame]

I've read this whole thread and have been struggling to write a coherent response... not sure I accomplished it, but here it goes...
I am a woman, an engineer, and an adjunct prof in a science department, and occasionally toy with running for political office. I am acuately aware of the benefits the sufferage movement and the civil rights movement have afforded me. Also, it turns out I can't have kids, so keeping me barefoot and pregnant isn't really an option (DS is adopted, so I'm also a mom.)

All of that said... I definitely don't label myself a femanist. Because I disagree with a lot of what the current femanist movement advocates. For one, I'm pro-life, which for some reason seems to automatically place you on the 'outs' for most femanists groups (with the notable exception of femanists for life, of which I am a member.)
Of the nine bullets on NOW's frontpage, there are two (a Love your Body comapaign and a Violence Against Women campaign) that I think are appropriate for a femanist group and with which I agree. (Don't want to get into too many details, as obviously many of these are political.)
Given that I fundamentally disagree with the vast majority of topics that the largest femanist organization sees as front-page importance... I just don't see a place for myself in their movement.

I also tried to read Feminine Mystique a few years ago. I was really excited to read it. Ready to be revitalized and encouraged by the women who came before me. I litterally ended up in tears and with throwing the book across the room. I probably picked a bad time to read it - I was in the midst of struggling with infertility at the time - but it seemed that everything I desperately wanted: to be a soccor mom, to have a happy, healthy home with kids and a husband... those were precisely the things she was railing against. Intentionally or not, it seems that the femanist movement has gone from honoring and valuing women's unique qualities (including but not limited to baring and raising children) to wanting to mold women into something identical to men. Instead of focusing on changing society to value the contributions of women (better maternity leave, more flexible work and school options, better support for fathers when mom's are working, etc.) it seems that the current femanist movement has a razor-like focus on making sure women can fit into the male mold of society.

No thanks. That's just not for me.

 

[Mkrop]

No we're just a little taken aback by ridiculous characterizations of feminists along with no one willing to give up any of the right/ opportunities feminism has provided but not wiling to give feminists credit where credit is due.

It seems like the anti-feminists are basing their ideas of what feminism stands for on outdated characterizations and hurt feelings from women they have known along the way, rather than what modern feminism actually stands for.

For example, feminism does not mean women can't shave their armpits, have to burn their bras, must go to college, must only have 2 kids or less, must work outside the home etc.

I will say it again than I think Modern Feminism needs a new public relations blitz bc many of the stereotypes still exist. And personal stoires are relevant when those people claim to be fighting for woman's rights and they tell you to your face that bc you made a certain choice you are not furthering woman's rights.

 

[Mkrop]

I've read this whole thread and have been struggling to write a coherent response... not sure I accomplished it, but here it goes...
I am a woman, an engineer, and an adjunct prof in a science department, and occasionally toy with running for political office. I am acuately aware of the benefits the sufferage movement and the civil rights movement have afforded me. Also, it turns out I can't have kids, so keeping me barefoot and pregnant isn't really an option (DS is adopted, so I'm also a mom.)

All of that said... I definitely don't label myself a femanist. Because I disagree with a lot of what the current femanist movement advocates. For one, I'm pro-life, which for some reason seems to automatically place you on the 'outs' for most femanists groups (with the notable exception of femanists for life, of which I am a member.)
Of the nine bullets on NOW's frontpage, there are two (a Love your Body comapaign and a Violence Against Women campaign) that I think are appropriate for a femanist group and with which I agree. (Don't want to get into too many details, as obviously many of these are political.)
Given that I fundamentally disagree with the vast majority of topics that the largest femanist organization sees as front-page importance... I just don't see a place for myself in their movement.

I also tried to read Feminine Mystique a few years ago. I was really excited to read it. Ready to be revitalized and encouraged by the women who came before me. I litterally ended up in tears and with throwing the book across the room. I probably picked a bad time to read it - I was in the midst of struggling with infertility at the time - but it seemed that everything I desperately wanted: to be a soccor mom, to have a happy, healthy home with kids and a husband... those were precisely the things she was railing against. Intentionally or not, it seems that the femanist movement has gone from honoring and valuing women's unique qualities (including but not limited to baring and raising children) to wanting to mold women into something identical to men. Instead of focusing on changing society to value the contributions of women (better maternity leave, more flexible work and school options, better support for fathers when mom's are working, etc.) it seems that the current femanist movement has a razor-like focus on making sure women can fit into the male mold of society.

No thanks. That's just not for me.

Thanks you said it better than I did