Mission Accomplished

[Master Mason]

That's exactly why we went in.



It was victory - Mission Accomplished! Now, as you put it, let's get the hell out. We should have done it years ago.

Sorry I missed a word, it should have read, that wasn't victory, it was the reason we went in.

In WWII the reason we went in was to eliminate Hitler and the Current leadership of Japan because they had attacked us. Victory was the unconditional surrender. The reason to go in, and victory are not one and the same.

Trust me, I would like for us to be out every bit as much as you do. The problem is there isn't a clearly defined pathway, that's what we need, not just a wholesale evacuation.

 

[Master Mason]

"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." - George W. Bush (December 18, 2000)

The rest I'm ignoring because it isn't worth the effort to explain why I used to be proud of the U.S. but that doesn't mean I'm the one that needs to leave.

Dissent is patriotic, another thing that Bush apologists don't seem to understand.

I'm not appologizing for anything or anyone. But a flipant comment doesn't mean he was attempting to move us to a dictatorship either. It would be a lot easier for me too if I got to be the dictator.

And if your so unhappy being an american, then yes, your answer is to leave. My stance is I am Proud to be an American, where if I don't like the current president, I can say so publicly, state my reasons, and not fear that someone will come and take me away in the middle of the night. That I live somewhere were I can question the autority of my governement, where I can say that I think things are going to hell in a hand basket, all with out fear of reprisal. Those are the things that make me proud to be an American. The fact that the economy sucks, that parts of the world hate us etc, have absolutely nothing to do with me being proud.

 

[ChrisFL]

I'm not appologizing for anything or anyone. But a flipant comment doesn't mean he was attempting to move us to a dictatorship either. It would be a lot easier for me too if I got to be the dictator.

And if your so unhappy being an american, then yes, your answer is to leave.

There's a big difference between being "unhappy" as an American and not being proud of it. Being proud is the ability to go to other countries and say "I'm an American" and not feel at all bad about it. Foreign policy has not allowed us to do that as easily as we used to. Invading soverign countries can do that.

 

[duckfan78]

What exactly does "most free" mean? This is part of the problem with Americans these days, always shouting "we're the best" but other countries continue to surpass in key areas like education and health care. Yet, people here will still keep shouting it.

Compare 10 years ago to now, how we were in trade, the dollar, gas prices, budget surplus vs. deficit, trust from our allies, etc. and tell me we're still on the path to staying on top.

All economic and trade factors are pointing to a long era of uncertainty unless something major changes soon.

Do we need to spell it out...Most free means, we have more freedoms than any other country in the world, who also keeps us safe from oustide danger.

10 years ago from now? lets see..we had a pervert in the oval office, who cut our military, cut our intellegence and brought shame to the office of the president just by his actions. Our economy was starting on a decline. we had higher taxes.

If you want to talk about economic factors and who to blame that we should all be blaming ourselves. We contiune as a nation to purchase products bought from CHINA. The more we buy from CHINA, the more our dollar declines. If we have no manufacturing in the country, its only right to blame all americans. We all buy foreign made products because we want everything cheaper. We might as well have our babies made over in China also. Everything from China is cheap, but its also CR*P.

And for all that is going on in the world, the dow jone, s & p and Nasdaq are all higher now than they they were under any other president!

 

[transparant]

There's a big difference between being "unhappy" as an American and not being proud of it. Being proud is the ability to go to other countries and say "I'm an American" and not feel at all bad about it. Foreign policy has not allowed us to do that as easily as we used to. Invading soverign countries can do that.

I'll go anywhere in the world and say "I'm an American" and not feel bad about it at all. I'd be proud as hell to say it.

 

[duckfan78]

I'll go anywhere in the world and say "I'm an American" and not feel bad about it at all. I'd be proud as hell to say it.

Damn straight...me too! I am not an american or proud to be an american when it's Convenient!

 

[ChrisFL]

Do you also proclaim that you're proud of how President Bush handles foreign affairs?

 

[CPT Tripss]

I distinctly remember this line of "reasoning" during the Viet Nam war (of which I am a veteran).
"If we leave Nam, then Communism will domino through the Southeast Pacific and soon it will be in Hawaii!"

And we see how that turned out.

That's exactly what I flashed back to when I read that post. The cost of that experience in coffins should have taught us a lesson, except that a whole bunch of the civilians who plotted this current war dodged out of Nam, having better things to do then.

 

[lyeag]

Do I agree with everything our president, or any president does? Of course not. Am I ashamed? No.

Ask the same question in just about any country and you would most likely get similar answers.

 

[lyeag]

That's exactly what I flashed back to when I read that post. The cost of that experience in coffins should have taught us a lesson, except that a whole bunch of the civilians who plotted this current war dodged out of Nam, having better things to do then.

I don't fear anything taking over our homefront. My point was, what about the people we leave behind when we leave? I have read countless posts over the years about the deaths of innocents at our hands. Do the innocents only matter when we have caused them?

 

[CPT Tripss]

No, they change leadership, hence why we have a democracy and not a dictatorship (as much as Bush would love to have a dictatorship, he does have to leave by Jan 20th, 2009)

Unless there is some terrorist attack to disrupt 11/4 . . .

 

[Master Mason]

Do you also proclaim that you're proud of how President Bush handles foreign affairs?

As with the others, I would have no problem going anywhere in the world and proclaiming I am proud to be American.

And your statement above has nothing to do with one's personal pride. As I stated earlier, you can be totally against the current president, that's one of those rights that should make you proud.

Check out other counties and see what happens to their citizens when they disagree with the current regime. They tend to disappear pretty quickly.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Master Mason - What's your definition of "victory?"

We went in, deposed Saddam, saw that WMD were not there - what else was on the plate? If we wait "to be welcomed with open arms," Sen McCain's time frame will be way short.

You seem to be pushing the "stay there until..." approach. So, until what?

 

[Master Mason]

Master Mason - What's your definition of "victory?"

We went in, deposed Saddam, saw that WMD were not there - what else was on the plate? If we wait "to be welcomed with open arms," Sen McCain's time frame will be way short.

You seem to be pushing the "stay there until..." approach. So, until what?

Honestly I don't know, that is my point, Victory has not been diffined. We currently aren't winning or losing because we don't know what the endgame is supposed to be.

If the sole purpose was to get rid of sadam, then we have done that and should leave. If the purpose was to set up a puppet governement, then we should get rid off all the folks that are causing problems with us doing that. Or whatever other senarios you can come up with. As I keep saying, the military is to kill people and break things, their job is not to build a new governement for whoever is left.

Regardless of if one believes we should be there or not, the current problem is that no diffintion of victory exists, at least that I can see. And that is not the fault of the military, they have proved themselves time and time again.

 

[disneyfan67]

It's not my memory that's cloudy, it's your perception. I've been here since 9/11. World sympathy was mixed and even from our friends, sprinkled with "don't you wonder why they hate you?" or reminders that the US supported the IRA, supports Israel, supports oppressive regimes; that the Jews were behind 9/11, that Saudi Arabia was behind 9/11; that Bush himself was behind 9/11...and since then we've had a 3/11, and a 7/7 as well, and terrorists have been wreaking havoc from Bali to Moscow. I think most of the world would agree now, if polled, that fighting terrorism necessitates more than finding one Bin Laden.

We did not need a major terrorist attack to involve ourselves in Iraq; we were already involved for a list of reasons. My perception of 2002 is different than yours; I remember "a growing and gathering threat", "flaunting the UN" and "we will make no distinction between the terrorists and those who harbor them." And weekly, sometimes daily, suicide bombings in Israel. (It's funny how you don't see much of that anymore.) We have learned since then that there were some other reasons for our allies' hesitation to get on board against Iraq, which included private deals and massive UN corruption. The world, as a whole, is a diverse group that doesn't have a lot of moral authority to stand on. And never did.

My perception is pretty clear as is my memory from those days. I didn't say everything was just super duper in the days after 911, but the mood of our country and of some of our allies was a lot different before the invasion of Iraq. Was Saddam a threat? Of course he was, but he wasn't worthy of the imminent threat that Bush and Cheney told he was. We were told so much that wasn't even close to being true, that it was ridiculous. As for Saddam paying off suicide bombers in Israel, I think everyone would agree that it was a horrible thing to do. There's no way that those acts justify our 5 year involvement in Iraq and all that has came with it. As a former Bush supporter and voter, I remember those days quite clearly. For some reason the mindset here of, if you speak out against Bush and the mistakes made, you get labeled and marginalized. It's gets old and is Un American, IMO, to treat fellow Americas that way.

I know America is obligated to stay in Iraq and I have accepted that reluctantly, but doesn't mean I have to overlook the lies, half truths, and idiotic mistakes that has got us there in the first place. I said before and I'll say it again. America is a lot smarter and capable of doing far better than what we did in Iraq. I will not give the POTUS a free pass when he messes up just because I voted for him.

 

[Carly_Roach]

Do I need to spell it out...Most free means, we have more freedoms than any other country in the world, who also keeps us safe from oustide danger.

We are never safe from outside danger. No country is. The difference between us and other countries is that we, as Americans, didn't dwell on threats and concentrated instead on accomplishing our own personal missions rather than trying to get other countries to behave the way we wanted them to.

Until Korea and Vietnam that is. Once we decided we were going to police the world, America as a whole started going to heck on a handcart.

10 years ago from now? lets see..we had a pervert in the oval office, who cut our military, cut our intellegence and brought shame to the office of the president just by his actions. Our economy was starting on a decline. we had higher taxes.

Your experience is different than mine. I had a great job earning more than I do now; I had very little debt - the CCs got paid off every month; I had a house with a value that increased every year; I was actually able to start saving for my retirement; and the future looked bright. All that changed after the Bush Administration.

"Pervert" in the Oval Office seems to work best for the American people, just like JFK worked best for the American people. It's only when you get the "morally upright", whose vices aren't women but money, into office that the country goes downhill. It seems the "perverts" actually care about other people - heck, they're chasing other people so they can care about them . The "morally upright" only seem to care about money and power.

If you want to talk about economic factors and who to blame that we should all be blaming ourselves. We contiune as a nation to purchase products bought from CHINA. The more we buy from CHINA, the more our dollar declines. If we have no manufacturing in the country, its only right to blame all americans. We all buy foreign made products because we want everything cheaper. We might as well have our babies made over in China also. Everything from China is cheap, but its also CR*P.

See below for an explanation about why we're buying from China:

And for all that is going on in the world, the dow jone, s & p and Nasdaq are all higher now than they they were under any other president!

Corporations have been shipping all production overseas so their bottom line would improve. Of course they're doing better - they're not having to pay American workers to produce what other countries produce at a fraction of the cost. Unfortunately, cheaper production equals crap products, full of lead and worthless.

Equally unfortunate, since Americans have lost so many good paying jobs, cheap crappy foreign products are all we can afford now.

 

[Corryn]

Those were the "good old days," gas was $1.45 a gallon and the Dollar was at par with the Euro. If that's victory ?

Are you better off?

Regardless of the gas price and the fact that our dollar is less than the Euro, me and my husband are better off. And when I get out of nursing school, we'll be even more better off ! (DVC - Here we come!)

 

[CPT Tripss]

Honestly I don't know, that is my point, Victory has not been diffined. We currently aren't winning or losing because we don't know what the endgame is supposed to be.

If the sole purpose was to get rid of sadam, then we have done that and should leave. If the purpose was to set up a puppet governement, then we should get rid off all the folks that are causing problems with us doing that. Or whatever other senarios you can come up with. As I keep saying, the military is to kill people and break things, their job is not to build a new governement for whoever is left.

Regardless of if one believes we should be there or not, the current problem is that no diffintion of victory exists, at least that I can see. And that is not the fault of the military, they have proved themselves time and time again.

So what's your solution? Let the military continue lay down their lives, while breaking things and killing people "because, just because?" Or are you writing a new verse for The Clash . . . "Should I Stay or Should I Go?"

If there is no metric for victory, then GO!

LYEAG - I think the sad reality is that innocents will continue to die at the hands of their countrymen whether we stay or we go. They were dying at Saddam's hands and in that regard nothing has changed except perhaps the politics and "faction" of the killed.

 

[Teejay32]

My perception is pretty clear as is my memory from those days. I didn't say everything was just super duper in the days after 911, but the mood of our country and of some of our allies was a lot different before the invasion of Iraq. Was Saddam a threat? Of course he was, but he wasn't worthy of the imminent threat that Bush and Cheney told he was. We were told so much that wasn't even close to being true, that it was ridiculous. As for Saddam paying off suicide bombers in Israel, I think everyone would agree that it was a horrible thing to do. There's no way that those acts justify our 5 year involvement in Iraq and all that has came with it. As a former Bush supporter and voter, I remember those days quite clearly. For some reason the mindset here of, if you speak out against Bush and the mistakes made, you get labeled and marginalized. It's gets old and is Un American, IMO, to treat fellow Americas that way. - (my bold)

I know America is obligated to stay in Iraq and I have accepted that reluctantly, but doesn't mean I have to overlook the lies, half truths, and idiotic mistakes that has got us there in the first place. I said before and I'll say it again. America is a lot smarter and capable of doing far better than what we did in Iraq. I will not give the POTUS a free pass when he messes up just because I voted for him.

These days you're more likely to get labeled and marginalized speaking in support of Bush, have you noticed?

I am not one of people saying that we have to stay in Iraq. The face of this war has changed over time, from war against Iraq to war alongside Iraq...I form my opinions on an ongoing basis from the people who are there. Mistakes were made in the process, of that I'm sure. But if Joe Soldier-on-the-Ground tells me that there is still a job to do and he's doing it, that work is getting done, that changes are happening, that bad guys remain, that people are becoming more united against bad guys, that diplomatic efforts are bearing fruit and unfamiliar political processes are gradually being adopted, etc., this carries huge weight. Yes, we made mistakes - so did everyone else. The UN failed Iraqis. The British did before that. The Arab League failed Iraqis. The international press failed them. We failed them two or three times before actually deposing Saddam - solidifying his grip on the country, probably.

I see myself on the side of the people seeking self-determination and fighting against oppression, exploitation, tyranny and mass murder. To me Saddam represented the latter, and then the militias; for others the choice wasn't and isn't so clear-cut. I understand that. But I also think that Americans are hard-wired to stand with others fighting in self-defense. Nothing makes me more proud. Whatever happens from here on, we fought, we spent, we built, we suffered, and we did stay the course this long, on behalf of Iraqis. No amount of European belittling, Russian disapproval, or tired Middle East victimology is going to change that.

 

[DawnCt1]

What exactly does "most free" mean? This is part of the problem with Americans these days, always shouting "we're the best" but other countries continue to surpass in key areas like education and health care. Yet, people here will still keep shouting it.

Compare 10 years ago to now, how we were in trade, the dollar, gas prices, budget surplus vs. deficit, trust from our allies, etc. and tell me we're still on the path to staying on top.

All economic and trade factors are pointing to a long era of uncertainty unless something major changes soon.

We still are on the path to staying on top, despite the fact that we effectively subsidize the military of many of the countries you happen to feel are doing well in education and health care. They know that they can depend on the USA if they come under attack by an enemy. Our strong defense is their strong defense.