Mission Accomplished

It would be the reason we went to Iraq was to defeat Hussien and bring a democracy.
Mission accomplished. About 3,800 solders lives ago. Time to declare victory and bring home the troops.

Since I have my degree in Criminal Justice, I tend to take offense to this comment. Everyone who works in the criminal justice system, including police officers, DA's, the military, and others, work to END crime, not to reduce it. We all know its hard to do that, but we do try.

Do you really think it possible to end crime???? Really?

Don't you think we should be responsible and make sure that the people of Iraq have a good place to live, without terrorism. I really could care less what people in other countries think of us and our credibility. The last time I checked I was an american. Why cut and run?
What makes you think having US solders in Iraq is the solution to their problems?

I don't think "folks" in Iraq want to come kill us, terrorists there do!
OK, nicely ducked. Let's try again. Do you really think there are terrorists in Iraq that have the desire and ability to carry out attacks in the US, but are choosing to stay and fight in Iraq instead?

do you give GWB any credit for the other things
Sure, why not..
 
After 9/11 we had the sympathy and respect of the rest of the world, which Bush squandered with his irresponsible war.


I've heard this often and never understood it. He "squandered" our emotional capital? Our victimhood? You know it's the product of over 2,000 violent deaths, but it could be useful so let's consider it a net gain?

It's seriously difficult to understand this POV. Borderline repugnant.
 
I've heard this often and never understood it. He "squandered" our emotional capital? Our victimhood? You know it's the product of over 2,000 violent deaths, but it could be useful so let's consider it a net gain?

It's seriously difficult to understand this POV. Borderline repugnant.

I can't understand why you wouldn't understand this. Yes, the whole thing is repugnant. And we have no one to blame but Bush. Oh, yes, and the people who continue to support him.
 
I can't understand why you wouldn't understand this. Yes, the whole thing is repugnant. And we have no one to blame but Bush. Oh, yes, and the people who continue to support him.

I'll try again. Do you think we gained something via 9/11 that Bush foolishly lost, and could you flesh out that theory for me?
 

Could we let this thread die? Everytime I see it, it makes me mad.
 
I have a more comfortable life, more money in the bank, and more money put aside for retirement. I also have more money for things like vacations. Dh and I started out with low paying jobs, and we have worked our way up to a better lifestyle.

BTW Dh is a military officer and I am a teacher. We also have 3 kids.

Providence has smiled upon you. May you both be well.
 
The only thing wrong with leaving now is that our children will end up there to go through it all over again. Should we just leave Iraq open to be over run b Iran and anyone else who chooses? What about the innocents who will die when we leave? Or are we only concerned about innocent deaths if we are involved?:confused3

I am not happy that we are still there, but the alternative, in my mind, is much worse.
 
I've heard this often and never understood it. He "squandered" our emotional capital? Our victimhood? You know it's the product of over 2,000 violent deaths, but it could be useful so let's consider it a net gain?

It's seriously difficult to understand this POV. Borderline repugnant.

I'll try again. Do you think we gained something via 9/11 that Bush foolishly lost, and could you flesh out that theory for me?


Let me break it down for you in the simplest of terms because your memory of the days before 911 and right after, seem to be cloudy. Right after the 2000 election fiasco, this country was pretty much divided along party lines and it showed. Right after 911 and the weeks following it, GWB had a 90% approval rating and Americans rallied behind him, saw him as a strong leader, and looked to him for support. Myself, along with millions of others cried tears when he stood up on that WTC rubble with that bullhorn and promised those terrorists in Afghanistan, that they would be hearing from us soon. BTW, hows the hunt for UBL going? Have we found him yet? Hmmm....


He had an historical amount of support from the American people and many leaders through out the world. He used that popularity and the desire of the American people to have justice served, to go ahead and invade Iraq. Without the events of 911, there's no way the American people would have ever gave him and his staff the green light to invade. We were told that the threat from Iraq was eminent, WMDs were being produced and would be used on us.

The year of 2002 was filled with some Americans at each others throats over the prospect of war. People felt patriotism for their country and believed in the President. Others felt it was a pant load of crap he was selling us and the accusations of being UN American were flying fast and furious. Several foreign countries told us not to invade and is one of the reasons why the UN refuses to set foot in Iraq as a peace keeping force. Bush went ahead with his cowboy swagger and managed to alienate quite a few. Our image around the world was tarnished. To what degree it is, up to history to decide, but only a fool would deny it's existence.

You know this Teejay and you just don't want to admit the fact the President you still support, has poll numbers that are so deep in the toilet, that it rivals Nixon's. In the fall of 2002 the GOP made gains in the house and Senate and gave Bush a damn near bullet proof majority. He doesn't even come close to having that now, does he? He squandered away a lot of things Teejay. Trust and faith from the American people tops that list. At least Nixon was well respected overseas when he stepped down and even the former Soviet Union saw him as a good leader. Reagan left the oval office with fairly high poll numbers and the respect of the free world. I'll bet money I don't have, that we can't say that about Bush. You know it and I know it. Lets stop kidding ourselves here Teejay and admit the truth. It's the least you can do.
 
The only thing wrong with leaving now is that our children will end up there to go through it all over again. Should we just leave Iraq open to be over run b Iran and anyone else who chooses? What about the innocents who will die when we leave? Or are we only concerned about innocent deaths if we are involved?:confused3

I am not happy that we are still there, but the alternative, in my mind, is much worse.


We have no choice to be there and try and stabilise Iraq. It's an uphill battle though and if the Iraqi people don't take full control of their destiny, all is lost. Can't fight fate though and it's up to all of the Iraqi people. Iran is rapidly becoming the major power player of the Middle East and will soon have nuclear weapons. I wouldn't doubt if they aren't in the process of buying older nukes from Russia and China. They might even have them now and there isn't a damn thing we can do. America isn't going to invade Iran and perform regime change there. Going into Iraq has really tied our hands behind our backs.

Invading Iraq has really destabilized the M.E and it may be broke beyond all repair. It's time for the political BS to end and all of us wake up and realise that major trouble is on the horizon. What are we going to do if Iran lobs a nuke at Israel? They have them too. I firmly feel that historians will look back at Iraq as a major boondoggle in foreign policy affairs. It's a mess and we can only hold firm and support the crumbling damn for so long, before it gives way. We need to prepare for that day if it comes and I think it will.
 
How about we actually define what victory is, then take the shackles off the military so they can do their job, which is to kill people and break things untill the definition of victory is achieved?

What we are currently seeing is a repeat of the same mistakes that were made in Viet Nam, (by democratic presidents btw). We have no diffinition of victory, and too much politics going on that are handcuffing our military.
 
As long as other countries would rather hide their heads in the sand, it will be difficult to deal with Iran. The ME was a mess before we got there and most likely will be well after we leave. However, I don't believe walking away is the right answer.
 
How about we actually define what victory is, then take the shackles off the military so they can do their job, which is to kill people and break things untill the definition of victory is achieved?

What we are currently seeing is a repeat of the same mistakes that were made in Viet Nam, (by democratic presidents btw). We have no diffinition of victory, and too much politics going on that are handcuffing our military.[/QUOTE]

Ding Ding Ding.
 
How about we actually define what victory is, then take the shackles off the military so they can do their job, which is to kill people and break things untill the definition of victory is achieved?

What we are currently seeing is a repeat of the same mistakes that were made in Viet Nam, (by democratic presidents btw). We have no diffinition of victory, and too much politics going on that are handcuffing our military.



The Shia and the Sunnis have been fighting each other for over 1400 years and this is far different than Vietnam. We weren't fighting religious fanatics who have centuries of hatred between them. What do you propose in dealing with this? Is your "removing the shackles statement" mean that we should just kill everyone involved and start over? Because I don't get where you're coming from on this. This issue is far more complicated than what political talking points will cure. I also wish people would quit using other war analogies because the Middle East is an animal all to it's own and is nothing like we have dealt with before. Our military accomplished it's original goal in removing Saddam and defeating his army. What we are doing is now is trying to play peace keeper and referee, along with nation building in the process. There's a time not too far away that the American people will finally say enough and it's coming, bank on it. I predict about in about 15 to 18 months from now, that the cries for leaving Iraq will be loud and clear. A majority of Americans are tired and fed up with the war and that's not some talking point either.
 
I used to be
You can always leave


The Shia and the Sunnis have been fighting each other for over 1400 years and this is far different than Vietnam. We weren't fighting religious fanatics who have centuries of hatred between them. What do you propose in dealing with this? Is your "removing the shackles statement" mean that we should just kill everyone involved and start over? Because I don't get where you're coming from on this. This issue is far more complicated than what political talking points will cure. I also wish people would quit using other war analogies because the Middle East is an animal all to it's own and is nothing like we have dealt with before. Our military accomplished it's original goal in removing Saddam and defeating his army. What we are doing is now is trying to play peace keeper and referee, along with nation building in the process. There's a time not too far away that the American people will finally say enough and it's coming, bank on it. I predict about in about 15 to 18 months from now, that the cries for leaving Iraq will be loud and clear. A majority of Americans are tired and fed up with the war and that's not some talking point either.


While not advocating Killing everyone, I'm not that worried about a little collateral damage either. And if they want to fight a religious war, well, we can take that to them too. (Ever read the Black Jack Pershing story of how to deal with terrorists?) We are ***** footing around, trying not to make people mad instead of going in and killing the bad guys. If they want to hid among the innocents, well then that's on them if a few innocents get hit in the process. If that were the stratagy, the "innocents" wouldn't be hiding them.

I do agree with you that the military should not be used as Peace Keepers though, their job as I stated is to break things and kill people, not be the police.

Also I think it was you that asked about Iran bombing Isreal. I am continually amazed at the restraint Isreal has showed over the years. This is purely for example, but could you imagine what we would be doing if Mexico was sending terrorists in to blow up busses and resturants etc like happens almost daily in Isreal? But I think if riled enough, that Isreal is completly capable of defending it's self. To be honest I am sort of suprised they haven't taken out Iran's reactors already.
 
not better off here. It's amazing how those in the military complex are, but the rest of the country has to deal with rising unemployment. While the folks here that are military families have to deal with long unknown periods away from their loved ones, wouldn't it be great if they didn't?

Pride in this country is problematic. Keep in mind that UBL is in Afghanistan. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Heck, many of the hijackers on the planes were from Saudi Arabia. People tend to forget these little facts.

What concerns me the most past Bush's tenure in the White House is that our borders aren't that well protected. In many cases, the reserves were responsible for that, but hey, they're a little busy right now. Ships aren't being inspected all the time, isn't that a scary thought.

It's also easy to blame the latest folks in congress. Remember they inherited a mess from the Republican congress.

With whomever comes in, I would like a safer country please. I would like us to help out countries where we can, but, we don't need to run Iraq, they need to run themselves.
 
not better off here. It's amazing how those in the military complex are, but the rest of the country has to deal with rising unemployment. While the folks here that are military families have to deal with long unknown periods away from their loved ones, wouldn't it be great if they didn't?

Pride in this country is problematic. Keep in mind that UBL is in Afghanistan. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Heck, many of the hijackers on the planes were from Saudi Arabia. People tend to forget these little facts.

What concerns me the most past Bush's tenure in the White House is that our borders aren't that well protected. In many cases, the reserves were responsible for that, but hey, they're a little busy right now. Ships aren't being inspected all the time, isn't that a scary thought.

It's also easy to blame the latest folks in congress. Remember they inherited a mess from the Republican congress.

With whomever comes in, I would like a safer country please. I would like us to help out countries where we can, but, we don't need to run Iraq, they need to run themselves.

I agree with this. The military always does well during times of unrest. My husband was in the military during the Reagan years, the Cold War, and military buildup. It was a FABULOUS time to be a soldier because they were loading up the military with benefits, higher pay, etc. Financially, I always felt fairly secure when my husband was in and we were enlisted. We were extremely lucky back then that there was really no combat and I'm not sure that if he was in right now I'd feel nearly as good about things.

As for my own personal situation--on paper, yeah it looks like I'm doing well. My income has increased 100% since about 1995. Back then, if you told me I'd be making what I make now, I would have thought I'd be walking on easy street. Funny thing is, I'm not. I make a ton more money but I have so much less discretionary income. When I lay it all out it is because the cost of living is so much higher now than it was then. My mortgage payment is the same as it was in 1995, the amount I pay out for car payments is EXACTLY the same, my kids are no longer in daycare (which was a huge payment back in 1995) but they have other expenses that probably equal what I used to pay in daycare, so that's all equal.

So why don't I have any money?
My commuting costs have gone through the roof. It used to cost me $2 per day to get to work--it now costs me $8 per day.

My medical costs for my son's condition (which he's had all his life) are outrageous. Mine have also increased a significant amount.

Food. I won't even outline that as it's been discussed on other threads. VERY high.

These are the three major areas that have eroded my income. Oh, I guess taxes too because, on paper again, my income is high so I'm taxed high, yet I live in an expensive area so the high income is meaningless.

Back in the early to mid 90s, I took an 8-10 day trip to Disney every other year. I paid for it myself with no problems. Somewhere along the line I ran out of money and took a break. The last two times I went with my family have been at the urging of my parents who wanted to go with my kids and, luckily for me, footed most of the bill. Otherwise I would not have gone. And I'm still confused most days as to where my money has gone.
 
Mission accomplished. About 3,800 solders lives ago. Time to declare victory and bring home the troops.



Do you really think it possible to end crime???? Really?

What makes you think having US solders in Iraq is the solution to their problems?

OK, nicely ducked. Let's try again. Do you really think there are terrorists in Iraq that have the desire and ability to carry out attacks in the US, but are choosing to stay and fight in Iraq instead?

Sure, why not..

OK, you're right...im wrong....happy now? UMMM....no. I don't even want to waste anymore of my breath answering questions I already have.

Let me break it down for you in the simplest of terms because your memory of the days before 911 and right after, seem to be cloudy. Right after the 2000 election fiasco, this country was pretty much divided along party lines and it showed. Right after 911 and the weeks following it, GWB had a 90% approval rating and Americans rallied behind him, saw him as a strong leader, and looked to him for support. Myself, along with millions of others cried tears when he stood up on that WTC rubble with that bullhorn and promised those terrorists in Afghanistan, that they would be hearing from us soon. BTW, hows the hunt for UBL going? Have we found him yet? Hmmm....


He had an historical amount of support from the American people and many leaders through out the world. He used that popularity and the desire of the American people to have justice served, to go ahead and invade Iraq. Without the events of 911, there's no way the American people would have ever gave him and his staff the green light to invade. We were told that the threat from Iraq was eminent, WMDs were being produced and would be used on us.

The year of 2002 was filled with some Americans at each others throats over the prospect of war. People felt patriotism for their country and believed in the President. Others felt it was a pant load of crap he was selling us and the accusations of being UN American were flying fast and furious. Several foreign countries told us not to invade and is one of the reasons why the UN refuses to set foot in Iraq as a peace keeping force. Bush went ahead with his cowboy swagger and managed to alienate quite a few. Our image around the world was tarnished. To what degree it is, up to history to decide, but only a fool would deny it's existence.

You know this Teejay and you just don't want to admit the fact the President you still support, has poll numbers that are so deep in the toilet, that it rivals Nixon's. In the fall of 2002 the GOP made gains in the house and Senate and gave Bush a damn near bullet proof majority. He doesn't even come close to having that now, does he? He squandered away a lot of things Teejay. Trust and faith from the American people tops that list. At least Nixon was well respected overseas when he stepped down and even the former Soviet Union saw him as a good leader. Reagan left the oval office with fairly high poll numbers and the respect of the free world. I'll bet money I don't have, that we can't say that about Bush. You know it and I know it. Lets stop kidding ourselves here Teejay and admit the truth. It's the least you can do.

I really could not give a rats *** that the presidents poll numbers are in the toilet. I make my own decisions and don't tend to just go with the majority feeling.

Let me break this down a little more. I own a manufacturing company. We do lots of different things. But our main goal is to make a profit and stay in business. Now, when something happens during the process of work, and a "problem" arises which was the cause of someones mistake, we don't say, well there is nothing we can do to fix it, so lets scrap it and throw it away. What we do is, we see what the problem is, and do everything we can to fix the problem. With this so called "war" we keep trying different things and different tactics and no matter what the people in the news media say, things in Iraq are 80% better then they were before the surge in troop levels.

In all honesty, there is no one person, who is going to bring an end to the war in Iraq easily. If we stay it is going to take a long time to get things the way they should be so the people of that nation can prosper, and if we leave, tyranny will preside again over the area and all of our troops who gave their lives would have died in vein.
 
The only thing wrong with leaving now is that our children will end up there to go through it all over again. Should we just leave Iraq open to be over run b Iran and anyone else who chooses? What about the innocents who will die when we leave? Or are we only concerned about innocent deaths if we are involved?:confused3

I am not happy that we are still there, but the alternative, in my mind, is much worse.

I distinctly remember this line of "reasoning" during the Viet Nam war (of which I am a veteran).
"If we leave Nam, then Communism will domino through the Southeast Pacific and soon it will be in Hawaii!"

And we see how that turned out.
 


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