middle school dance -- girls can't turn down a guy who asks them

[Turn the Page]

Also, I'm just going to take a direct quote that came from the mom's Facebook page, that was linked in that article posted in the original post. The mother's Facebook post says: "
NO MEANS NO.
A kid at school that makes my daughter uncomfortable asked her to dance at the school dance on Valentine's Day. She tried to say no thank you, and the principal overheard and intervened and told her she's not allowed to say no and that she has to dance with him.
This boy has been quoted as publicly saying something very disturbing of a sexual nature."

If it happened as this mother said, then we are not talking about a girl rudely mocking a boy who asked her to dance. She felt uncomfortable because of sexual things the boy said. She said no thank you, and the principal forced her to dance anyway.

Again, if anyone thinks it was wrong for this girl to turn down a slow dance with a boy, try to put yourself in her shoes by imagining a similar scenario at work, and your boss forcing unwanted touch on you by another coworker

If it happened as the mother claims then no, that is absolutely not okay in any way and the principal should be reprimanded for it.

 

[luvsJack]

That's a good analogy.
Middle schools typically hold dances as fund raisers, and kids are excited to attend what they see as a very grown-up activity.

However, in my experience as a teacher, social skills seem to decline every year. I don't think some simple lessons in etiquette would hurt any of our students.

This was a dance during the school day. It may have been a fund raiser but it didn’t sound like it. It sounded like during the day either during their PE period or break/recess.

 

[luvsJack]

So telling someone "no thank you" is rude?

How many middle school girls do you know? I can just about guarantee if there is a boy asking who is the grade out cast or one of them, and he approaches a group of girls, he isn’t going to get a polite response. Middle school girls are the worst at making someone feel two inches tall.

Some of you sound like you are picturing these little meek and mild girls just trying to disappear into the corner and the big bad wolf is asking her to dance. If that’s how your girls are, what are you teaching them?

Dd would dance. And the moment the boy made her feel uncomfortable he would get shot down with a look or response or if needed a elbow to the ribs. Her ability to stand up for herself, no matter what, is what helped protect her. Not her ability to say no.

I started this thread saying that anyone, boys or girls, should have the right to say no. But on the other hand, I do get the need to, in some instances, of making sure no one is excluded. And a lot depends on this dance and how it was conducted. It doesn’t sound like it was a weekend night middle school dance that everyone is picturing. And it sounds as though they were encouraging everyone to actually dance, not run around as usually happens at these things.

 

[SaintsManiac]

You know, it's possible to teach a child to be kind and also teach them that their body is their own and they don't have to let ANYONE touch them.

I would never, ever make my kid put herself in an uncomfortable position either with family or strangers or friends or any disabled person. From school activities to holiday gatherings she has been taught that she doesn't have to let anyone touch her.

Kids don't have much control in their lives, but they do control their own space. It is completely wrong to try and force ANYONE to touch ANYONE.

 

[luvsJack]

Did you all have really long arms? The photo illustrates what I'm talking about. This is how they danced in our junior high, and it was a Catholic school lol. Some people had the awkward "arms out as far as possible" position, but many were like this. There's just a certain degree of intimacy involved in slow dancing. And I don't mean "sexual" intimacy necessarily, because of course you have wedding dances with a father and daughter, or mother and son dancing. But there is a level of comfort there with the person, in order to want to dance with them. I just think a forced slow dance between anyone who doesn't want it, is uncomfortable. It doesn't even mean you think the person is unattractive. In junior high, it could even be a case where the dancers ARE attracted to each other, and they feel uncomfortable dancing because of it. Again, ask yourself if you'd be ok being forced to slow dance with coworkers, BOTH male and female. If you wouldn't like being forced into it, and publicly shamed if you refused, do you think a 12 year old girl feels comfortable being forced to? I don't care how close or far away the guy holds her, it's still awkward if it's unwanted touch. I said earlier that my kids' junior high doesn't have slow dancing at all. I think that's probably the best way to go. Then in high school they can choose who they dance with. My older daughter's first high school dance, some boy asked her to dance, she got up to dance with him, then she saw he was leading her to the "grinding circle". She said no way and turned around and sat down. I'm sure glad she wasn't conditioned to have to say "yes" to dancing when she didn't want to

You can’t dance without your body touching your partner’s? Really? As an adult, I slow danced with my ex-fil. I can 110% guarantee you that the only things touching was our hands and his hand lightly at my waist.

Heck dh and I two stepped every weekend while dating and our bodies never touched. Hands only. And we were definitely attracted to each other.

At middle school dances in my world, they aren’t allowed to be all over each other. No grinding or any such nonsense.

 

[luvsJack]

Also, I'm just going to take a direct quote that came from the mom's Facebook page, that was linked in that article posted in the original post. The mother's Facebook post says: "
NO MEANS NO.
A kid at school that makes my daughter uncomfortable asked her to dance at the school dance on Valentine's Day. She tried to say no thank you, and the principal overheard and intervened and told her she's not allowed to say no and that she has to dance with him.
This boy has been quoted as publicly saying something very disturbing of a sexual nature."

If it happened as this mother said, then we are not talking about a girl rudely mocking a boy who asked her to dance. She felt uncomfortable because of sexual things the boy said. She said no thank you, and the principal forced her to dance anyway.

Again, if anyone thinks it was wrong for this girl to turn down a slow dance with a boy, try to put yourself in her shoes by imagining a similar scenario at work, and your boss forcing unwanted touch on you by another coworker

The first thing Mom should do is teach her daughter not just to say no but to also speak up. If the boy said something like that, her daughter should have had no problem telling the principal exactly why she wanted nothing to do with the boy.

You keep mentioning co-workers. I have had one co worker in all my years of working that I would have had an issue being asked to dance with. And my boss already knew I was creeped out by him. Why? Because I told him. If that instructor came in my office, my boss found a reason to be in there too. Or would call the man to his office to get him out of mine.

Complete communication is a good thing.

 

[katie01]

You can’t dance without your body touching your partner’s? Really? As an adult, I slow danced with my ex-fil. I can 110% guarantee you that the only things touching was our hands and his hand lightly at my waist.

Heck dh and I two stepped every weekend while dating and our bodies never touched. Hands only. And we were definitely attracted to each other.

At middle school dances in my world, they aren’t allowed to be all over each other. No grinding or any such nonsense.

I consider my hands and waist to be part of my body

 

[katie01]

The first thing Mom should do is teach her daughter not just to say no but to also speak up. If the boy said something like that, her daughter should have had no problem telling the principal exactly why she wanted nothing to do with the boy.

You keep mentioning co-workers. I have had one co worker in all my years of working that I would have had an issue being asked to dance with. And my boss already knew I was creeped out by him. Why? Because I told him. If that instructor came in my office, my boss found a reason to be in there too. Or would call the man to his office to get him out of mine.

Complete communication is a good thing.

She did speak up. And the mom later told the principal why her daughter didn't want to dance with that boy. If you go to the mom's Facebook page it tells the whole story. The principal even said she's not the first child or parent to complain about the policy, but he's not changing it, he said if her daughter doesn't like it, she can stay home from school that day.

So that's great that you could tell your boss and your boss understood your feelings, but this family has made it quite clear of their feelings, and the principal isn't budging

 

[sk!mom]

How many middle school girls do you know? I can just about guarantee if there is a boy asking who is the grade out cast or one of them, and he approaches a group of girls, he isn’t going to get a polite response. Middle school girls are the worst at making someone feel two inches tall.

Some of you sound like you are picturing these little meek and mild girls just trying to disappear into the corner and the big bad wolf is asking her to dance. If that’s how your girls are, what are you teaching them?

Dd would dance. And the moment the boy made her feel uncomfortable he would get shot down with a look or response or if needed a elbow to the ribs. Her ability to stand up for herself, no matter what, is what helped protect her. Not her ability to say no.

I started this thread saying that anyone, boys or girls, should have the right to say no. But on the other hand, I do get the need to, in some instances, of making sure no one is excluded. And a lot depends on this dance and how it was conducted. It doesn’t sound like it was a weekend night middle school dance that everyone is picturing. And it sounds as though they were encouraging everyone to actually dance, not run around as usually happens at these things.

As a mom and a teacher, I’m well aware of how rough middle school is and how unkind that age group can be but there is nothing in the article to suggest that this girl was unkind.

The school would be much better off having some lessons on how to ask and decline politely rather than passing such a ridiculous rule.

No one should have to accept an unwanted touch.

You keep bringing up how you danced with many people and it was fine. Good for you but might I point out that no one forced you. You made that choice for yourself. Please give everyone else that same right.

 

[luvsJack]

I consider my hands and waist to be part of my body

Well of course but that is not what you were talking about initially.

 

[luvsJack]

She did speak up. And the mom later told the principal why her daughter didn't want to dance with that boy. If you go to the mom's Facebook page it tells the whole story. The principal even said she's not the first child or parent to complain about the policy, but he's not changing it, he said if her daughter doesn't like it, she can stay home from school that day.

So that's great that you could tell your boss and your boss understood your feelings, but this family has made it quite clear of their feelings, and the principal isn't budging

You are reading one side on a Facebook page.

The article, where the Mon spoke didn’t say anything about any of that. And the girl said no to the boy but it said nothing of her telling the principal why.

You have asked a dozen times how anyone would feel if their boss made them dance with a co worker. Then when it’s said “this would be my situation” it “oh well that is fine but they have a different problem. If you don’t want an answer, don’t ask.

Nothing in the initial article said that they ever told the principal why. Neither the girl or the mom. In fact he said if there was someone she didn’t want to dance with, she should tell him beforehand.

 

[MamaBelle4]

You are reading one side on a Facebook page.

The article, where the Mon spoke didn’t say anything about any of that. And the girl said no to the boy but it said nothing of her telling the principal why.

You have asked a dozen times how anyone would feel if their boss made them dance with a co worker. Then when it’s said “this would be my situation” it “oh well that is fine but they have a different problem. If you don’t want an answer, don’t ask.

Nothing in the initial article said that they ever told the principal why. Neither the girl or the mom. In fact he said if there was someone she didn’t want to dance with, she should tell him beforehand.

Why should she have to explain why she doesn't want to dance with someone? I don't understand why she has to give reasons for other people to determine whether or not it is acceptable for her to turn them down.

She didn't want to dance with him because he made comments that made her uncomfortable. Maybe she didn't want to dance with him because she just didn't like him. Maybe she's a private person that doesn't really like to be touched by other people she doesn't know well. Maybe he has body odor issues or poor hygiene. Maybe he said something rude to one of her friends.

I don't really care why she said no. She could have politely declined because he was "that kid" at school and she didn't want to dance with him.

The whys really do not matter. No one else has the right to tell her she must allow someone else to touch her. Her body is her own. By forcing her to dance with someone she said no to, they are expressly telling her that she does not have the right to say no. That she did something wrong by turning this boy down.

That is NOT a message we should be ingraining in our daughters. And it really sickens me that anyone on this thread could defend it.

 

[SaintsManiac]

Why should she have to explain why she doesn't want to dance with someone? I don't understand why she has to give reasons for other people to determine whether or not it is acceptable for her to turn them down.

She didn't want to dance with him because he made comments that made her uncomfortable. Maybe she didn't want to dance with him because she just didn't like him. Maybe she's a private person that doesn't really like to be touched by other people she doesn't know well. Maybe he has body odor issues or poor hygiene. Maybe he said something rude to one of her friends.

I don't really care why she said no. She could have politely declined because he was "that kid" at school and she didn't want to dance with him.

The whys really do not matter. No one else has the right to tell her she must allow someone else to touch her. Her body is her own. By forcing her to dance with someone she said no to, they are expressly telling her that she does not have the right to say no. That she did something wrong by turning this boy down.

That is NOT a message we should be ingraining in our daughters. And it really sickens me that anyone on this thread could defend it.

All of this and then some. It took me decades to understand that I don't owe anyone an explanation. The least I can do is pass that knowledge to my daughter BEFORE she hits middle school.

 

[katie01]

You are reading one side on a Facebook page.

The article, where the Mon spoke didn’t say anything about any of that. And the girl said no to the boy but it said nothing of her telling the principal why.

You have asked a dozen times how anyone would feel if their boss made them dance with a co worker. Then when it’s said “this would be my situation” it “oh well that is fine but they have a different problem. If you don’t want an answer, don’t ask.

Nothing in the initial article said that they ever told the principal why. Neither the girl or the mom. In fact he said if there was someone she didn’t want to dance with, she should tell him beforehand.

One dozen=12. Count again

And who said I didn't want an answer? I just happen to disagree with yours. If you're fine with unwanted touch, awesome! I'm not. Have a nice day!

 

[luvsJack]

As a mom and a teacher, I’m well aware of how rough middle school is and how unkind that age group can be but there is nothing in the article to suggest that this girl was unkind.

The school would be much better off having some lessons on how to ask and decline politely rather than passing such a ridiculous rule.

No one should have to accept an unwanted touch.

You keep bringing up how you danced with many people and it was fine. Good for you but might I point out that no one forced you. You made that choice for yourself. Please give everyone else that same right.

There also was nothing in the article that suggested why she didn’t want to dance with him either.

I already said, in the post you quoted, that I do think they all should have the right to say no. But like I said back a few pages ago, I think there needs to be perhaps more discussion with all of the kids about these things.

Yes, a girl or a boy has the right to say no. But they have a responsibility to be kind.

 

[sk!mom]

Yes, a girl or a boy has the right to say no. But they have a responsibility to be kind.

Of course, but we should absolutely not be teaching them that kindness extends to accepting an unwanted touch.

Kindness is “no thank you” and move on.

 

[luvsJack]

Why should she have to explain why she doesn't want to dance with someone? I don't understand why she has to give reasons for other people to determine whether or not it is acceptable for her to turn them down.

She didn't want to dance with him because he made comments that made her uncomfortable. Maybe she didn't want to dance with him because she just didn't like him. Maybe she's a private person that doesn't really like to be touched by other people she doesn't know well. Maybe he has body odor issues or poor hygiene. Maybe he said something rude to one of her friends.

I don't really care why she said no. She could have politely declined because he was "that kid" at school and she didn't want to dance with him.

The whys really do not matter. No one else has the right to tell her she must allow someone else to touch her. Her body is her own. By forcing her to dance with someone she said no to, they are expressly telling her that she does not have the right to say no. That she did something wrong by turning this boy down.

That is NOT a message we should be ingraining in our daughters. And it really sickens me that anyone on this thread could defend it.

Sorry but saying yes to a dance should not be teaching anyone that they don’t have the right to say no to anything else. That is my point. Not that she should have to dance with him but that rape culture and being afraid to say no or him understanding that no means no is sooo much deeper than a request to dance. And making it about this does a disservice to our kids.

And I still think that our kids need to learn to be kind to one another.

If you don’t want to dance with someone because the have done or said something inappropriate, fine. But speak up. Don’t let what he did go just because you “shouldn’t have to”. That does a LOT more toward rape culture than saying yes to a dance. We want our girls to have power than by goodness, GIVE them power to speak up loud and clear rather than just “she shouldn’t have to give a reason”.

Otoh, if she wants to say no because he wears glasses or has a wart or isn’t a football player or one of the many silly reasons middle school girls can be cruel about, then that girl or those girls need to learn a bit about being kind. Whether that is dancing or figuring out another way to include that kid in the group.

 

[luvsJack]

One dozen=12. Count again

And who said I didn't want an answer? I just happen to disagree with yours. If you're fine with unwanted touch, awesome! I'm not. Have a nice day!

. No I am not going to go back and count. If you want to be 100% exact, by all means correct me. But you asked more than once. I am well aware what a dozen means. No reason to get snarky.

You asked, I answered. And then you go on about the family telling the principal after the fact which has nothing to do with it. If someone does something like they said this boy did then the girl should speak up. In fact they should have spoken up when it happened not after they get mad about a rule. That was what I did and my action came with results.

And I not once said anything about being ok with an unwanted touch. But this acting like he is going to have her all wrapped up with his hands all over her is a bit ridiculous.

As for the mom in the article, if she knew what this boy was quoted to say before the dance then the time for her to say something was then. Not after she was angry with the principal.

 

[katie01]

. No I am not going to go back and count. If you want to be 100% exact, by all means correct me. But you asked more than once. I am well aware what a dozen means. No reason to get snarky.

You asked, I answered. And then you go on about the family telling the principal after the fact which has nothing to do with it. If someone does something like they said this boy did then the girl should speak up. In fact they should have spoken up when it happened not after they get mad about a rule. That was what I did and my action came with results.

Do you want to know why I was being exact? Because you were debating with me the meaning of bodies touching up thread. Questioning why I’m not able to dance without bodies touching. Telling me I’m assuming the mother is telling the truth when she might not be. Telling me I’m going on and on and mentioning coworkers a dozen times. But I’m being snarky? Ok.

Don’t worry, I won’t bother you by going on and on anymore. We can agree to disagree. The girl, according to the Facebook post, which is all I have to go on, so it may or may not be true, BUT, if it happened the way she said, politely said “no thank you” to a situation that she felt uncomfortable with. A situation that involved some degree of bodily contact. To me, a no thank you is enough. It is my personal belief that we don’t need to shame or criticize an 11 year old for not handling the situation the way we as adults might have the communication skills or life experience would handle it. I think she has the right to say “no thank you” and that’s enough

 

[luvsJack]

Do you want to know why I was being exact? Because you were debating with me the meaning of bodies touching up thread. Questioning why I’m not able to dance without bodies touching. Telling me I’m assuming the mother is telling the truth when she might not be. Telling me I’m going on and on and mentioning coworkers a dozen times. But I’m being snarky? Ok.

Don’t worry, I won’t bother you by going on and on anymore. We can agree to disagree. The girl, according to the Facebook post, which is all I have to go on, so it may or may not be true, BUT, if it happened the way she said, politely said “no thank you” to a situation that she felt uncomfortable with. A situation that involved some degree of bodily contact. To me, a no thank you is enough. It is my personal belief that we don’t need to shame or criticize an 11 year old for not handling the situation the way we as adults might have the communication skills or life experience would handle it. I think she has the right to say “no thank you” and that’s enough

But that isn’t what you said. You said you can’t slow dance without your bodies touching. Is your hand part of your body, yes of course but that isn’t what you said. You implied their body as in chest area—body. You even asked the other poster if they have unusually long arms. So if you simply meant hands, what difference does the length of arms make?

And I said “going on about” not “going on and on”. Those aren’t the same statements.

If the boy did what the mom said then she missed the perfect time to teach her daughter to speak up. If it’s true then that is far past a request to dance. Letting him go with it is the wrong thing to do. And 11 is the very age when a girl should be taught to handle these situations.