Mass Shooting at Orlando Club

[Magpie]

How many times can they say that Islam is not a hate filled religion?

And let's go back a few years - when Tim McVeigh blew up a building. Did people demand that bishops and other clergy speak out against him? And how about when Christians killed doctors who performed abortions - did people demand that clergy speak out against that? No they did not, because they understood that these acts were committed by evil people. It is the same thing here.

More recently Anders Breivik claimed to be "culturally Christian" and declared himself an "Odinist". I've encountered Odinists before, and I never would think to hold them responsible for Breivik (and that's even taking into account that there's been often a "White pride" macho aspect to the Odinists I've met that makes me very wary of them anyway). The last time I was at a pagan festival, they had Odinists providing security, which they did very well, being all big beardy men.

And, of course, the man who killed Jo Cox yesterday was allegedly heard to shout, "Britain First!" which is a Far Right group that calls itself Christian and engages in "Christian Patrols" around mosques. Quite reasonably, the vast majority of us consider it entirely sufficient that all the major Christian denominations in the UK have in the past denounced them, and we don't require any further condemnation, or any deeper examination of the fundamental roots of a religion that spawns hate groups like this. Christians are under no obligation to take responsibility for the existence or actions of Britain First.

 

[JimMIA]

How many times can they say that Islam is not a hate filled religion?

And let's go back a few years - when Tim McVeigh blew up a building. Did people demand that bishops and other clergy speak out against him?

No, because McVeigh was a politically-motivated domestic terrorist, not a religious terrorist. He was a right-wing, survivalist, white supremacist -- not a religious zealot. He bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City on the second anniversary of the Waco Branch Davidian siege because of his hatred of the US government, not any religious philosophy however twisted.

And how about when Christians killed doctors who performed abortions - did people demand that clergy speak out against that?

No, because those religiously-motivated terrorist murders WERE publically condemned by hundreds, probably thousands, of clergy of many faiths. Even ministers who strongly disagree with abortion condemned those murders. There was no need to demand anything from responsible religious leaders of any faith.

 

[wilkeliza]

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[cabanafrau]

While I understand what you're saying, it's incredibly important to recognize that this was a deliberate attack on LGBT people. Intolerance and hatred towards the LGBT community is not just being spewed by terrorists.. it's happening right here at home. Violence towards LGBT individuals is a huge issue, and this is simply the worst in recent memory. We need to stop the vicious rhetoric that gays are to be hated and feared. We need to raise children who meet others with love and compassion.

There are politicians who won't even admit that Pulse was a gay club. There are people refusing to grieve or pay their respects because it was an attack on the LGBT community. There are preachers applauding this attack. Right here in the United States.

While I understand what you're saying, I hesitate to delineate this by victims because at the end of the day these were human beings who were slaughtered while going about their lives peacefully. That's sickening and wrong no matter where and how you look at it.

 

[JimMIA]

According to the FBI, they do a lot more than just photo ops.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-cooperation-idUSKCN0Z213U

Yeah, of course they call the FBI. It's the least anyone could do.

Hopefully every single one of us would notify appropriate law enforcement authorities of anyone we thought might possibly be involved in planning a terrorist attack. That's nothing special -- it's the minimal requirement of being a decent human being, our everyday human, moral responsibility. I would expect nothing less from any group of people -- religious or not.

Religious leaders, though, have special responsibilities to our communities and also to the people of faith they lead. To their followers, they have an obligation to effectively lead them in directions which are consistent with the basic fundamentals of their religion, and to guide them away from things that are abhorrent to their religion.

To the larger community, they have a responsibility to represent their faith (and faithful followers) accurately to the community. If untrue allegations are being made against their faith, they should stand up and say, "Wait a minute -- that's NOT US! THIS is what we believe, this is what we preach in our places of worship, and this is what we live." They should be strong advocates, not background decorations in some politician's media event.

Silence is perceived as acceptance...or even agreement.

The silence of moderate religious leaders has been deafening. In fact, the only religious leaders who have spoken out loudly have been the few who have been inciting terrorism -- the ones whose mosques are hotbeds of terror recruiting.

The silence of moderate religious leaders makes "Where do you stand?" a perfectly reasonable question. Moderate Muslim leaders -- and I'm sure that is 99% of them -- owe it to their own people to make their beliefs clearly understood. They should step up, not yield to bigotry against their people caused by their own default.

 

[Magpie]

Yeah, of course they call the FBI. It's the least anyone could do.

Hopefully every single one of us would notify appropriate law enforcement authorities of anyone we thought might possibly be involved in planning a terrorist attack. That's nothing special -- it's the minimal requirement of being a decent human being, our everyday human, moral responsibility. I would expect nothing less from any group of people -- religious or not.

Religious leaders, though, have special responsibilities to our communities and also to the people of faith they lead. To their followers, they have an obligation to effectively lead them in directions which are consistent with the basic fundamentals of their religion, and to guide them away from things that are abhorrent to their religion.

To the larger community, they have a responsibility to represent their faith (and faithful followers) accurately to the community. If untrue allegations are being made against their faith, they should stand up and say, "Wait a minute -- that's NOT US! THIS is what we believe, this is what we preach in our places of worship, and this is what we live." They should be strong advocates, not background decorations in some politician's media event.

Silence is perceived as acceptance...or even agreement.

The silence of moderate religious leaders has been deafening. In fact, the only religious leaders who have spoken out loudly have been the few who have been inciting terrorism -- the ones whose mosques are hotbeds of terror recruiting.

The silence of moderate religious leaders makes "Where do you stand?" a perfectly reasonable question. Moderate Muslim leaders -- and I'm sure that is 99% of them -- owe it to their own people to make their beliefs clearly understood. They should step up, not yield to bigotry against their people caused by their own default.

Here's some reading for you...

Think Muslims haven't condemned Isis? Think again! http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...uslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

The Big Lie about Muslim silence on terrorism. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamran-pasha/the-big-lie-about-muslim_b_188991.html

Why don't more moderate Muslims denounce extremism? They do, we're just not listening. https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/

How Muslim groups, scholars, have been fighting ISIS. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/nati...-Groups-Against-ISIS-Speal-Out-361309791.html

And that's only the first four Google results to, "Muslim leaders speak out against terrorism".

Specific to Orlando, we have...

Muslim Leader calls for "Overwhelming Love" in response to Orlando shooting. http://time.com/4365689/orlando-shooting-muslim-nightclub/

Openly Gay Muslim Imam reacts to Orlando: Clubs like Pulse are safe havens for LGBT Muslims, too. http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/13/openly_gay_muslim_imam_reacts_to

Muslim Americans Rush to Condemn Orlando Massacre. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-shooting-pulse-nightclub-muslims-condemn-attack/

Meanwhile, on the flip side, we have...

(So-called "Baptist") Pastor refuses to mourn Orlando victims: 'The tragedy is that more of them didn't die.' https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/

(Another "Baptist") Pastor spews Hate-filled Rhetoric in Response to Orlando LGBT Shooting http://www.liberalamerica.org/2016/...lled-rhetoric-response-orlando-lgbt-shooting/

Active duty Marines under investigation for threats made against gay bars http://www.towleroad.com/2016/06/marines-gay-bars/

There's love on both sides. There's hate on both sides. No one's silent.

 

[CPanther95]

Meanwhile, on the flip side, we have...

(Baptist) Pastor refuses to mourn Orlando victims: 'The tragedy is that more of them didn't die.' https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/

(Another Baptist) Pastor spews Hate-filled Rhetoric in Response to Orlando LGBT Shooting http://www.liberalamerica.org/2016/...lled-rhetoric-response-orlando-lgbt-shooting/

Those guys aren't actually Baptists. Just a couple hate-filled strip mall nut jobs.

 

[BrinkofSunshine]

While I understand what you're saying, I hesitate to delineate this by victims because at the end of the day these were human beings who were slaughtered while going about their lives peacefully. That's sickening and wrong no matter where and how you look at it.

It's absolutely disgusting, I agree, but it is absolutely a hate crime committed by someone who harbored extreme hatred towards LGBT people. It's important to recognize because the LGBT struggles daily for acceptance, to be recognized by our lawmakers to be given the same fundamental rights as every American, and live in fear of hatred, bigotry and violence from small scale to large scale.

Every person is vulnerable to violent attacks, terrorist or otherwise. But as a straight woman, I don't have to feel the fear my gay friends when they show affection in public. I don't worry someone will hate me, or ridicule me, or not hire me, because of my orientation.

The shooter chose a gay club. He chose to specifically gun down a place that would have a significant amount of LGBT people inside. There are larger, busier clubs in Orlando. Heck, there are much busier places in general. But he chose Pulse.

 

[Magpie]

Those guys aren't actually Baptists. Just a couple hate-filled strip mall nut jobs.

That's why I put "Baptist" in quotes. They call themselves Baptists, but I don't consider them such.

I don't consider ISIS adherents real Muslims, either.

 

[cabanafrau]

Here's some reading for you...

Think Muslims haven't condemned Isis? Think again! http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...uslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

The Big Lie about Muslim silence on terrorism. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamran-pasha/the-big-lie-about-muslim_b_188991.html

Why don't more moderate Muslims denounce extremism? They do, we're just not listening. https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...ont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/

How Muslim groups, scholars, have been fighting ISIS. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/nati...-Groups-Against-ISIS-Speal-Out-361309791.html

And that's only the first four Google results to, "Muslim leaders speak out against terrorism".

Specific to Orlando, we have...

Muslim Leader calls for "Overwhelming Love" in response to Orlando shooting. http://time.com/4365689/orlando-shooting-muslim-nightclub/

Openly Gay Muslim Imam reacts to Orlando: Clubs like Pulse are safe havens for LGBT Muslims, too. http://www.democracynow.org/2016/6/13/openly_gay_muslim_imam_reacts_to

Muslim Americans Rush to Condemn Orlando Massacre. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/orlando-shooting-pulse-nightclub-muslims-condemn-attack/

Meanwhile, on the flip side, we have...

(So-called "Baptist") Pastor refuses to mourn Orlando victims: 'The tragedy is that more of them didn't die.' https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/

(Another "Baptist") Pastor spews Hate-filled Rhetoric in Response to Orlando LGBT Shooting http://www.liberalamerica.org/2016/...lled-rhetoric-response-orlando-lgbt-shooting/

Active duty Marines under investigation for threats made against gay bars http://www.towleroad.com/2016/06/marines-gay-bars/

There's love on both sides. There's hate on both sides. No one's silent.

How does a human being of any stripe think what happened to the people in the club is okay?

 

[BrinkofSunshine]

Those guys aren't actually Baptists. Just a couple hate-filled strip mall nut jobs.

Yet terrorists are actually Muslims? I see how that works.

 

[Magpie]

Yet terrorists are actually Muslims? I see how that works.

EDIT: OH! I got the posts mixed up! Never mind.

 

[Magpie]

How does a human being of any stripe think what happened to the people in the club is okay?

I'd like to ask those "Marines" the same thing. I assume, if the allegations turn out to be true, they'll be dishonorably discharged. It'd be nice if they went onto some kind of watch-list, too.

 

[BrinkofSunshine]

I didn't say that?

I was replying to CPanther95, who seemed to be insinuating that those hateful men couldn't possibly be Baptists. I've just seen a lot of rhetoric of how all Muslims are inherently evil, so that comment struck a nerve.

It just seems that when a "Christian" does something terrible, people are quick to separate the person from the religion, yet when a "Muslim" does something terrible, the entire religion and its followers are to be blamed.

 

[Magpie]

I was replying to CPanther95, who seemed to be insinuating that those hateful men couldn't possibly be Baptists. I've just seen a lot of rhetoric of how all Muslims are inherently evil, so that comment struck a nerve.

Yeah, I hear you. I got confused as to who was being responded to. I should really go do laundry now... I've spent WAY too much time on this board today!

 

[CPanther95]

Yet terrorists are actually Muslims? I see how that works.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Don't place your prejudices or assumptions on me.

... or back it up with a quote.

 

[longboard55]

I really wish they would end the radical terrorist talk and totally out this guy. He had anger issues, a wife beater, had sexual orientation issues, spent hours on gay chat lines and been that way for a long time. Quit making this guy out to be a mastermind criminal. He went for his 15 minutes of fame

 

[JimMIA]

Those guys aren't actually Baptists. Just a couple hate-filled strip mall nut jobs.

I would say the same thing to Baptists that I said to Muslims above. Do you agree with these two? I certainly hope not!

But to say that people like this are "nut jobs," or "That's why I put "Baptist" in quotes. They call themselves Baptists, but I don't consider them such." is just a cop-out. They ARE Baptists. They are Baptist ministers.

To which, I would say to the Baptists, "Where do you stand with regard to these two?"

 

[CPanther95]

They ARE Baptists. They are Baptist ministers.

To which, I would say to the Baptists, "Where do you stand with regard to these two?"

They are unaffiliated with the Baptist church and are unaffiliated with any denomination. So they can call themselves a Baptist, but they don't represent any group bigger than themselves. No different than some nut job that calls himself a Muslim if he's not actually a Muslim.

The point is that it isn't representative of Christian church leaders in the US. These guys have congregations probably in the double-digits and it's not an honest way to make an argument if it is supposed to be taken as a widespread viewpoint.

 

[LiveYourLife]

Dr. Joshua Corsa, another hero (watch the video in the article):

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...o-shooting-resident-shoes-20160616-story.html