Mass Shooting at Orlando Club

[gwynne]

The effort to try and find every possible alternate motivation for a terrorist's act of terror is ridiculous and absolutely meaningless. I don't care what other motivations he may have had to answer the call from international terrorist organizations to commit this act.

People are entitled to their opinions. Thankfully, the FBI will be carefully looking at each and every bit of evidence. A collective picture yields more valuable information.

 

[CPanther95]

Impulsively closing a door for 10 seconds behind you, because the hallway you're in is packed and you can hear gunshots, is a far cry from "locking a door". It's just survivor's guilt speaking. And a good example of how things get twisted in retelling.

We need to see what comes from all the interviews before drawing any conclusions. Some inside said that exit doors were not only closed, but were locked. But even then we don't know if that is secondhand info or not.

Even after all the interviews are done, we may not be able to draw a conclusion. We know now that after the extensive Senate hearings on the Titanic interviewing almost all survivors, they came to conclusions that were inaccurate - and some of those that had accurate accounts were discounted as inconsistent with the bulk of eyewitness accounts.

 

[CPanther95]

People are entitled to their opinions. Thankfully, the FBI will be carefully looking at each and every bit of evidence. A collective picture yields more valuable information.

People can have any opinion they want. I just wonder if he had attacked a straight nightclub if people would be trying to insist that he only committed the act because he was gay and hated straight people, not because he's a terrorist.

I find it odd to discount what the attacker himself declared and for people to try to make a case that he didn't know his own mind as well as they do. It wreaks of people trying to twist a tragic event to serve whatever agenda they happen to want to push.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Without a doubt, the guy had more than one evil or dark thought swirling around in his head... but I don't understand why some wish to heavily discount the guy's own proclamations as to what motivated his actions and instead speculate on what really made his actions acceptable in his eyes. More and more, it seems like we should call it "The hate that dare not speak its name." It seems fairly nonsensical to think that if the radicalization wouldn't have happened, there would still have been a murderous rampage. At worst, the only role that any self-loathing may have played might have been his final selection of the ultimate target versus the reported secondary target of Disney Springs.

Why? It doesn't promote their message or beliefs. JMHO

 

[Magpie]

The effort to try and find every possible alternate motivation for a terrorist's act of terror is ridiculous and absolutely meaningless. I don't care what other motivations he may have had to answer the call from international terrorist organizations to commit this act.

I care about all motives.

Suppose the shooter really was gay. If his father hadn't been an anti-gay bigot, would he have been so easy to radicalize? He certainly never would have abused his first wife, as he wouldn't have married a woman in the first place. Maybe if he'd been raised in a loving household, he could have loved others, instead of wallowing in a mire of hatred, for both himself and the world around him.

Perhaps there's another boy somewhere, in torment because his father believes he's disgusting and perverted. Maybe that boy can be helped.

I'm sure plenty of people will be looking into terrorism, radicalization over the internet, watch lists and so forth. But, I think it'd be a good thing if we also looked closer to home, too.

When 14 bright young women (engineering students) were murdered at the Ecole Polytechnique in 1989, Canadians were forced to face the poisonous sexism and resentment that fueled their killer's actions. I can only imagine how much the people who died in the Pulse had to offer the world, and how much we've lost due to their deaths. I think the least we can do in their honor is consider ALL the motivations, and look for ALL possible solutions.

 

[CPanther95]

I care about all motives.

Suppose the shooter really was gay. If his father hadn't been an anti-gay bigot, would he have been so easy to radicalize? He certainly never would have abused his first wife, as he wouldn't have married a woman in the first place. Maybe if he'd been raised in a loving household, he could have loved others, instead of wallowing in a mire of hatred, for both himself and the world around him.

Perhaps there's another boy somewhere, in torment because his father believes he's disgusting and perverted. Maybe that boy can be helped.

I'm sure plenty of people will be looking into terrorism, radicalization over the internet, watch lists and so forth. But, I think it'd be a good thing if we also looked closer to home, too.

I agree it's important to know what motivates people to radicalize - I don't agree with denying a terrorist's self-proclamation of radicalization and trying to substitute their own idea for what motivated him.

 

[Magpie]

I agree it's important to know what motivates people to radicalize - I don't agree with denying a terrorist's self-proclamation of radicalization and trying to substitute their own idea for what motivated him.

No one ever has just one motive.

It makes no difference whether you say, "He shot up the club because he was an ISIS terrorist. End of story!" Or whether you say, "He shot up the club because he was a self-hating gay man. End of story!"

Both statements are equally false. Or rather, equally inadequate, and equally facile.

Any examination of the man's motives needs to be nuanced and thorough, collating all available information. It's no more legitimate to blame everything on radicalization, than it is to blame it all on his repressed sexuality.

 

[gwynne]

I care about all motives.

Suppose the shooter really was gay. If his father hadn't been an anti-gay bigot, would he have been so easy to radicalize? He certainly never would have abused his first wife, as he wouldn't have married a woman in the first place. Maybe if he'd been raised in a loving household, he could have loved others, instead of wallowing in a mire of hatred, for both himself and the world around him.

Perhaps there's another boy somewhere, in torment because his father believes he's disgusting and perverted. Maybe that boy can be helped.

I'm sure plenty of people will be looking into terrorism, radicalization over the internet, watch lists and so forth. But, I think it'd be a good thing if we also looked closer to home, too.

When 14 bright young women (engineering students) were murdered at the Ecole Polytechnique in 1989, Canadians were forced to face the poisonous sexism and resentment that fueled their killer's actions. I can only imagine how much the people who died in the Pulse had to offer the world, and how much we've lost due to their deaths. I think the least we can do in their honor is consider ALL the motivations, and look for ALL possible solutions.

Very true, and beautifully said.

 

[gwynne]

People can have any opinion they want. I just wonder if he had attacked a straight nightclub if people would be trying to insist that he only committed the act because he was gay and hated straight people, not because he's a terrorist.

I find it odd to discount what the attacker himself declared and for people to try to make a case that he didn't know his own mind as well as they do. It wreaks of people trying to twist a tragic event to serve whatever agenda they happen to want to push.

I think there is plenty of discussion with sticking to the facts as we know them. He didn't attack a straight night club. If he had, the FBI would have investigated that just as they are doing with Pulse.
As I said upthread, the FBI will find looking at each and every bit of evidence valuable.
JMO-- I believe he had a lot going on psychologically. And it wasn't just religion.

 

[CPanther95]

JMO-- I believe he had a lot going on psychologically. And it wasn't just religion.

I agree. But then I believe all these radicals have a lot going on psychologically. You'd have to if you are motivated to massacre a bunch of innocent people.

 

[Geoff_M]

When 14 bright young women (engineering students) were murdered at the Ecole Polytechnique in 1989, Canadians were forced to face the poisonous sexism and resentment that fueled their killer's actions. I can only imagine how much the people who died in the Pulse had to offer the world, and how much we've lost due to their deaths. I think the least we can do in their honor is consider ALL the motivations, and look for ALL possible solutions.

Though it seems interesting that people were more than happy to take the Ecole Polytechnique shooter at his word (through his statements made during the shooting and in his suicide note), but not so much with the Orlando shooter.

 

[wilkeliza]

There is no agenda by not wanting to give ISIS any credit. The big thing is people don't want this to just be an ISIS terrorist attack. It was a hate crime against the LGBT community as well. It is possible for it to be both as this is not an either or scenario. However, some are trying to use the ISIS portion to down play the fact he specifically targeted gay individuals. It doesn't matter that he scouted other places because he didn't do the attacks there. He chose a refuge and safe haven for the LGBT community. We have to recognize that part of this terrorist act was to try and make the LGBT community feel unsafe in a world where they already make unconscious decisions out of protection.

 

[CPanther95]

There is no agenda by not wanting to give ISIS any credit. The big thing is people don't want this to just be an ISIS terrorist attack. It was a hate crime against the LGBT community as well. It is possible for it to be both as this is not an either or scenario. However, some are trying to use the ISIS portion to down play the fact he specifically targeted gay individuals. It doesn't matter that he scouted other places because he didn't do the attacks there. He chose a refuge and safe haven for the LGBT community. We have to recognize that part of this terrorist act was to try and make the LGBT community feel unsafe in a world where they already make unconscious decisions out of protection.

They were innocent Americans.

That should be enough for outrage.

 

[wilkeliza]

They were Americans.

That should be enough for outrage.

That is the exact line of thought that I was trying to point out as an issue. Just because we want to remember that it was an LGBT hate crime doesn't mean we are forgetting it was an attack on American citizens. However, not every American citizen is fearful of their lives now because of this. I'd go out on a limb and say there is a large portion of the LGBT community walking around today unsure of their safety. There have already been at least 2 people being investigated in copycat threats.

Yes this happened to Americans but we can not forget that it also happened to a very specific community with in America.

 

[gwynne]

There is no agenda by not wanting to give ISIS any credit. The big thing is people don't want this to just be an ISIS terrorist attack. It was a hate crime against the LGBT community as well. It is possible for it to be both as this is not an either or scenario. However, some are trying to use the ISIS portion to down play the fact he specifically targeted gay individuals. It doesn't matter that he scouted other places because he didn't do the attacks there. He chose a refuge and safe haven for the LGBT community. We have to recognize that part of this terrorist act was to try and make the LGBT community feel unsafe in a world where they already make unconscious decisions out of protection.

Amen.

They were innocent Americans.

That should be enough for outrage.

Some are going to see the significance of the attack location, some won't.

 

[CPanther95]

That is the exact line of thought that I was trying to point out as an issue. Just because we want to remember that it was an LGBT hate crime doesn't mean we are forgetting it was an attack on American citizens. However, not every American citizen is fearful of their lives now because of this. I'd go out on a limb and say there is a large portion of the LGBT community walking around today unsure of their safety. There have already been at least 2 people being investigated in copycat threats.

Yes this happened to Americans but we can not forget that it also happened to a very specific community with in America.

We should all be vigilant. San Bernardino, 9/11, Fort Hood and Orlando all targeted different subsets of Americans. We shouldn't be waiting for every possible group to be targeted before we recognize a potential threat against that group.

 

[Magpie]

We should all be vigilant. San Bernardino, 9/11, Fort Hood and Orlando all targeted different subsets of Americans. We shouldn't be waiting for every possible group to be targeted before we recognize a potential threat against that group.

The 2009 Fort Hood shooting - a soldier shooting other soldiers - was similarly complex with regards to motivation. In that case, also, it was debated whether the shooter was a radicalized Muslim, a disgruntled employee, or just mentally ill. In actual fact, all three statements were true and the incident had characteristics of both workplace violence and ideological attack, as well a shooter who appeared to be suffering from severe paranoia and schitzoid tendencies.

And then there's the Charleston church massacre, in which the shooter clearly declared he was committing a hate crime against black people... and yet, he socialized regularly with black people himself.

Threats to Western Society come from both without and within. I don't think anyone's failing to recognize that.

 

[CPanther95]

The 2009 Fort Hood shooting - a soldier shooting other soldiers - was similarly complex with regards to motivation. In that case, also, it was debated whether the shooter was a radicalized Muslim, a disgruntled employee, or just mentally ill. In actual fact, all three statements were true and the incident had characteristics of both workplace violence and ideological attack, as well a shooter who appeared to be suffering from severe paranoia and schitzoid tendencies.

And then there's the Charleston church massacre, in which the shooter clearly declared he was committing a hate crime against black people... and yet, he socialized regularly with black people himself.

Threats to Western Society come from both without and within. I don't think anyone's failing to recognize that.

That's why it's less relevant what group was targeted. Anything we learn from this latest tragedy that can help reduce further similar attacks should be applied across the board with all similar venues, not just those within the gay community. Ideally we extrapolate this incident to a wide variety of venues, not just night clubs. We shouldn't have to endure learning every possible lesson the hard way.

The same way the Fort Hood shooting shouldn't have just been a wake up call for those in the military.

 

[longboard55]

Some are going to see the significance of the attack location, some won't.[/QUOTE]

For a guy who they say hated gays, sounds like he did an awful lot of research

 

[Magpie]

That's why it's less relevant what group was targeted. Anything we learn from this latest tragedy that can help reduce further similar attacks should be applied across the board with all similar venues, not just those within the gay community. Ideally we extrapolate this incident to a wide variety of venues, not just night clubs. We shouldn't have to endure learning every possible lesson the hard way.

The same way the Fort Hood shooting shouldn't have just been a wake up call for those in the military.

It's entirely relevant whenever a vulnerable minority is targeted. Unless you're saying that the fact that the Charleston shooter targeted blacks was not relevant?

Just as I was hopeful that the Charleston shooting would help move race relations forward in a positive way (and hey, at the very least we all learned a whole lot about the REAL history of that Confederate battle flag!), I'm now hopeful one of the things we can learn from this latest tragedy is to be kinder to our children if we suspect they might be gay. To be more supportive of the LGBT people in our communities. To refrain from actions or rhetoric that legitimizes hate or prejudice against them.

How many times do we hear bigotry and just brush it off? Ignore it? Roll our eyes and move on? Every time we remain silent, the targets of that bigotry become just that much more vulnerable to attack.