Mass Shooting at Orlando Club

[CPanther95]

It's entirely relevant whenever a vulnerable minority is targeted.

You're missing the point. We are ALL vulnerable.

Pretending that some of us are less vulnerable is a dangerous and incorrect assumption.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

You're missing the point. We are ALL vulnerable.

Pretending that some of us are less vulnerable is a dangerous and incorrect assumption.

You mean I just purchased all this bubble wrap for nothing?

 

[CPanther95]

You mean I just purchased all this bubble wrap for nothing?

I should have clarified. Those of us NOT wrapped in bubble wrap are vulnerable.

 

[Magpie]

You're missing the point. We are ALL vulnerable.

Pretending that some of us are less vulnerable is a dangerous and incorrect assumption.

But it's true. As a white, well educated, connected, articulate middle class Canadian, I am FAR less vulnerable when it comes to dealing with law enforcement than certain other social groups. On the other hand, as a woman, I am far more vulnerable to being sexually assaulted if I'm at a music festival alone, than I would be if I was male.

Different people are vulnerable in different ways. Some are more vulnerable than others. LGBT people, in particular, are very vulnerable to being attacked for who they are, for who they love, and for how they dress or present themselves in public.

Me? I'm really not vulnerable in that way. No one's ever going to spit on me for holding hands with my husband. Or try to pass laws preventing me from using the bathroom that matches my gender.

 

[CPanther95]

But it's true. As a white, well educated, connected, articulate middle class Canadian, I am FAR less vulnerable when it comes to dealing with law enforcement than certain other social groups. On the other hand, as a woman, I am far more vulnerable to being sexually assaulted if I'm at a music festival alone, than I would be if I was male.

Different people are vulnerable in different ways. Some are more vulnerable than others. LGBT people, in particular, are very vulnerable to being attacked for who they are, for who they love, and for how they dress or present themselves in public.

Me? I'm really not vulnerable in that way. No one's ever going to spit on me for holding hands with my husband. Or try to pass laws preventing me from using the bathroom that matches my gender.

I thought we were talking about terrorist attacks - not the plight of the White Canadian.

My bad.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

I thought we were talking about terrorist attacks - not the plight of the White Canadian.

My bad.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

From article link below:

The body of......gunman......has been kept apart from the remains of his 49 victims at the morgue — and his autopsy was conducted in a different building.

"This is not a law or requirement, but was rather done out of respect for the victims and their families so that the shooter may never be near the 49 beautiful souls again," Orange County Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Joshua Stephany said in a statement on Thursday.

....."While our team trains for such incidents, nothing could truly prepare anyone for this devastating loss. We are honored to have been entrusted to care for all of these individuals, yet saddened to now be among those communities affected by such profound tragedies."

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...-s-body-kept-apart-49-beautiful-souls-n593816

I really, really LOVE that they did this.

Just because we want to remember that it was an LGBT hate crime doesn't mean we are forgetting it was an attack on American citizens.

And vice-versa.

However, not every American citizen is fearful of their lives now because of this. I'd go out on a limb and say there is a large portion of the LGBT community walking around today unsure of their safety. There have already been at least 2 people being investigated in copycat threats.

There is little doubt that this has tremendously impacted the LGBT community! Undersandably - absolutely! But I haven't talked to one person in the last several days who hasn't greatly lamented this horrendous tragedy, as well. And I am seeing increased levels of anxiety in just about everyone. This really just brought it home to all of us how far one evil person can go. We are all in fear and solidarity here, I feel. (If not politically or otherwise, at least, as Americans.)

 

[bcla]

There is no agenda by not wanting to give ISIS any credit. The big thing is people don't want this to just be an ISIS terrorist attack. It was a hate crime against the LGBT community as well. It is possible for it to be both as this is not an either or scenario. However, some are trying to use the ISIS portion to down play the fact he specifically targeted gay individuals. It doesn't matter that he scouted other places because he didn't do the attacks there. He chose a refuge and safe haven for the LGBT community. We have to recognize that part of this terrorist act was to try and make the LGBT community feel unsafe in a world where they already make unconscious decisions out of protection.

Well - he seemed to be confused as to what organization he was supporting. He pledged the attack to ISIS, but also apparently praised other Islamic terrorist organizations that are in opposition to ISIS. This isn't really a cut and dry case of motivation.

 

[JimMIA]

I think we're all speculating on the motive subject, and I also think it's quite possible that we'll never know for sure. It's still very early in the investigation; way too early to draw any conclusions about motivation.

My personal opinion is that he had two motivations:

1. He was a radical Islamic terrorist, that much is clear to me. bcla is correct, he had expressed support for several groups in the past, and some of those groups have been at war with each other for more than 1,000 years. So there's some confusion in his mind at various times in the past. But to me, on the day of the attack, while he was actively engaged in killing people, he made numerous intentional direct pledges of allegiance to ISIS -- to a 9-1-1 operator, to a TV producer, and who knows who else. If he goes out of his way to make sure people know he's committing mass murder in the name of ISIS, and pledges allegiance to the "Caliph" -- not once, but several times that we know of -- and ISIS claims responsibility, I'm going with the "looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" analogy.
2. There is no question in my mind that this was a very narrowly-focused hate crime of the worst kind. This was very deliberately planned and executed to target gay people. Anyone who doesn't believe that is living in a dream world. And as we've seen in some of the information revealed in this case, that gay-hatred is not unique to the most radical elements of Islam. FORTY majority Muslim countries have LAWS against homosexuality -- in many cases, with death as the punishment. NOT terrorist groups -- countries. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE and many, many others. So to me, there is absolutely nothing surprising about the carefully selected target of an Islamic terrorist in this case.

I also think there is no question that this is NOT just an attack on all Americans. This is a ruthless slaughter of men and women because they were gay.

And I have news for my fellow straight folks -- that hurts gay people more, and in a different way, than it hurts us. This heinous crime hurts gay people exactly the same way as the Charleston, SC church shooting hurt black people. It's a direct pain, not a generalized sense of loss like we all feel. I cannot possibly understand, or feel, this pain in the same way as those who were directly targeted.

I know that because I have felt a similar pain when a fellow police officer -- 1,000 miles away, in a town I never heard of -- is targeted and killed. It's different, and it's very personal.

You know what hurts the most? The fact that other people -- you and I in this particular case -- go about their normal lives like nothing happened while we're burying friends with holes in our hearts. When enormous police funeral processions creep by, a heart-warming few stop, put their hands over their heart, even salute. But most people just blow their horns because they're being delayed for five minutes.

We should recognize that difference, acknowledge it, and support those who are hurting more than we are, in ways and for reasons we know nothing about.

We should put our political agendas on hold, get off our high horses...and stop and salute.

 

[FINFAN]

From article link below:

The body of......gunman......has been kept apart from the remains of his 49 victims at the morgue — and his autopsy was conducted in a different building.

"This is not a law or requirement, but was rather done out of respect for the victims and their families so that the shooter may never be near the 49 beautiful souls again," Orange County Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Joshua Stephany said in a statement on Thursday.

....."While our team trains for such incidents, nothing could truly prepare anyone for this devastating loss. We are honored to have been entrusted to care for all of these individuals, yet saddened to now be among those communities affected by such profound tragedies."



http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...-s-body-kept-apart-49-beautiful-souls-n593816

well, in the same line of thought~ hopefully none of the survivors received any of his donated blood. ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE, he donated ahead of the attack.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/orlando-gunman-donated-blood-weeks-prior-shooting/story?id=39873117

The ban was lifted in Dec of '15 on gay men donating.

 

[CPanther95]

I think we're all speculating on the motive subject, and I also think it's quite possible that we'll never know for sure. It's still very early in the investigation; way too early to draw any conclusions about motivation.

My personal opinion is that he had two motivations:

1. He was a radical Islamic terrorist, that much is clear to me. bcla is correct, he had expressed support for several groups in the past, and some of those groups have been at war with each other for more than 1,000 years. So there's some confusion in his mind at various times in the past. But to me, on the day of the attack, while he was actively engaged in killing people, he made numerous intentional direct pledges of allegiance to ISIS -- to a 9-1-1 operator, to a TV producer, and who knows who else. If he goes out of his way to make sure people know he's committing mass murder in the name of ISIS, and pledges allegiance to the "Caliph" -- not once, but several times that we know of -- and ISIS claims responsibility, I'm going with the "looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" analogy.
2. There is no question in my mind that this was a very narrowly-focused hate crime of the worst kind. This was very deliberately planned and executed to target gay people. Anyone who doesn't believe that is living in a dream world. And as we've seen in some of the information revealed in this case, that gay-hatred is not unique to the most radical elements of Islam. FORTY majority Muslim countries have LAWS against homosexuality -- in many cases, with death as the punishment. NOT terrorist groups -- countries. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE and many, many others. So to me, there is absolutely nothing surprising about the carefully selected target of an Islamic terrorist in this case.

I also think there is no question that this is NOT just an attack on all Americans. This is a ruthless slaughter of men and women because they were gay.

And I have news for my fellow straight folks -- that hurts gay people more, and in a different way, than it hurts us. This heinous crime hurts gay people exactly the same way as the Charleston, SC church shooting hurt black people. It's a direct pain, not a generalized sense of loss like we all feel. I cannot possibly understand, or feel, this pain in the same way as those who were directly targeted.

I know that because I have felt a similar pain when a fellow police officer -- 1,000 miles away, in a town I never heard of -- is targeted and killed. It's different, and it's very personal.

You know what hurts the most? The fact that other people -- you and I in this particular case -- go about their normal lives like nothing happened while we're burying friends with holes in our hearts. When enormous police funeral processions creep by, a heart-warming few stop, put their hands over their heart, even salute. But most people just blow their horns because they're being delayed for five minutes.

We should recognize that difference, acknowledge it, and support those who are hurting more than we are, in ways and for reasons we know nothing about.

We should put our political agendas on hold, get off our high horses...and stop and salute.

I don't think anyone has suggested that this attack doesn't affect the gay community more than the rest of the country. Obviously it does since they were the most impacted.

The only thing some people have said is that who they targeted shouldn't impact the level of our collective outrage. We should be equally offended by the act, not more or less offended based on what group they decided to target. Anyone who places a different value on lives based on what group they belong to has some serious issues.

 

[Chernabog#1fan]

well, in the same line of thought~ hopefully none of the survivors received any of his donated blood. ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE, he donated ahead of the attack.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/orlando-gunman-donated-blood-weeks-prior-shooting/story?id=39873117

The ban was lifted in Dec of '15 on gay men donating.

Based on the statements by OneBlood, there is still a ban on gay men donating. It was very upsetting here in Orlando on Sunday with that ban and the tragedy that happened.

 

[wilkeliza]

well, in the same line of thought~ hopefully none of the survivors received any of his donated blood. ACCORDING TO THIS ARTICLE, he donated ahead of the attack.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/orlando-gunman-donated-blood-weeks-prior-shooting/story?id=39873117

The ban was lifted in Dec of '15 on gay men donating.

Only lifted for celibate gay men. If you are Gay or Bi and a man and have sex with a man you can not donate until you have been celibate or only with women for a year. Doesn't matter if you are married monogamous man or even just monogamous or taking anti-virals. So basically gay and bi men are still banned.

 

[roseaster]

I think we're all speculating on the motive subject, and I also think it's quite possible that we'll never know for sure. It's still very early in the investigation; way too early to draw any conclusions about motivation.

My personal opinion is that he had two motivations:

1. He was a radical Islamic terrorist, that much is clear to me. bcla is correct, he had expressed support for several groups in the past, and some of those groups have been at war with each other for more than 1,000 years. So there's some confusion in his mind at various times in the past. But to me, on the day of the attack, while he was actively engaged in killing people, he made numerous intentional direct pledges of allegiance to ISIS -- to a 9-1-1 operator, to a TV producer, and who knows who else. If he goes out of his way to make sure people know he's committing mass murder in the name of ISIS, and pledges allegiance to the "Caliph" -- not once, but several times that we know of -- and ISIS claims responsibility, I'm going with the "looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" analogy.
2. There is no question in my mind that this was a very narrowly-focused hate crime of the worst kind. This was very deliberately planned and executed to target gay people. Anyone who doesn't believe that is living in a dream world. And as we've seen in some of the information revealed in this case, that gay-hatred is not unique to the most radical elements of Islam. FORTY majority Muslim countries have LAWS against homosexuality -- in many cases, with death as the punishment. NOT terrorist groups -- countries. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE and many, many others. So to me, there is absolutely nothing surprising about the carefully selected target of an Islamic terrorist in this case.

I also think there is no question that this is NOT just an attack on all Americans. This is a ruthless slaughter of men and women because they were gay.

And I have news for my fellow straight folks -- that hurts gay people more, and in a different way, than it hurts us. This heinous crime hurts gay people exactly the same way as the Charleston, SC church shooting hurt black people. It's a direct pain, not a generalized sense of loss like we all feel. I cannot possibly understand, or feel, this pain in the same way as those who were directly targeted.

I know that because I have felt a similar pain when a fellow police officer -- 1,000 miles away, in a town I never heard of -- is targeted and killed. It's different, and it's very personal.

You know what hurts the most? The fact that other people -- you and I in this particular case -- go about their normal lives like nothing happened while we're burying friends with holes in our hearts. When enormous police funeral processions creep by, a heart-warming few stop, put their hands over their heart, even salute. But most people just blow their horns because they're being delayed for five minutes.

We should recognize that difference, acknowledge it, and support those who are hurting more than we are, in ways and for reasons we know nothing about.

We should put our political agendas on hold, get off our high horses...and stop and salute.

...but please don't confuse governments with people. There are many, many moderate Muslims out there. The problem is moderate Muslims have no voice in theocracies which are governed by sharia. There are many Muslims who do not feel hatred for the LGBTQ community, but in nations governed by sharia they cannot speak out or voice this. They cannot openly sympathize or support these communities. Well, they can, but it would be to their detriment and the detriment of their families.

Yes, the basic teachings of Islam are that homosexuality is wrong, but that is also the basic teachings of many Christian sects as well. Like Christians, not all Muslims agree with or follow every teaching of the religion.

What this man did was an act of pure evil.

 

[BrinkofSunshine]

That's why it's less relevant what group was targeted. Anything we learn from this latest tragedy that can help reduce further similar attacks should be applied across the board with all similar venues, not just those within the gay community. Ideally we extrapolate this incident to a wide variety of venues, not just night clubs. We shouldn't have to endure learning every possible lesson the hard way.

The same way the Fort Hood shooting shouldn't have just been a wake up call for those in the military.

While I understand what you're saying, it's incredibly important to recognize that this was a deliberate attack on LGBT people. Intolerance and hatred towards the LGBT community is not just being spewed by terrorists.. it's happening right here at home. Violence towards LGBT individuals is a huge issue, and this is simply the worst in recent memory. We need to stop the vicious rhetoric that gays are to be hated and feared. We need to raise children who meet others with love and compassion.

There are politicians who won't even admit that Pulse was a gay club. There are people refusing to grieve or pay their respects because it was an attack on the LGBT community. There are preachers applauding this attack. Right here in the United States.

 

[JimMIA]

...but please don't confuse governments with people. There are many, many moderate Muslims out there. The problem is moderate Muslims have no voice in theocracies which are governed by sharia. There are many Muslims who do not feel hatred for the LGBTQ community, but in nations governed by sharia they cannot speak out or voice this. They cannot openly sympathize or support these communities. Well, they can, but it would be to their detriment and the detriment of their families.

Obviously a serious choice for someone in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. Dissent could be "...to their detriment" in a deadly way.

But what's the excuse of the American Muslims? Or French? Or British? Or Dutch? Or Belgian? Or...?

Where are they on Islamist terrorism? Which side are they on?

They need to do more than token appearances for solidarity photo opps at press conferences. A LOT more.

 

[Magpie]

Obviously a serious choice for someone in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. Dissent could be "...to their detriment" in a deadly way.

But what's the excuse of the American Muslims? Or French? Or British? Or Dutch? Or Belgian? Or...?

Where are they on Islamist terrorism? Which side are they on?

They need to do more than token appearances for solidarity photo opps at press conferences. A LOT more.

According to the FBI, they do a lot more than just photo ops.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-cooperation-idUSKCN0Z213U

"They" are us. "They" do as much - or as little! - as you or I do to combat terrorism. Many of "them" do much more than you or me.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

According to the FBI, they do a lot more than just photo ops.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-cooperation-idUSKCN0Z213U

"They" are us. "They" do as much - or as little! - as you or I do to combat terrorism. Many of "them" do much more than you or me.

Just wanted to let you know you really made me reflect a bit with what you've written here. A wonderful perspective indeed.

 

[JimMIA]

Just for the record, my comments above are NOT meant as agreeing with what any politicians -- whether political candidates or political appointees -- have to say on the subject. Both of those groups obviously say what they think will further their careers, either elective or bureaucratic.

In fact, I have a special distaste for demagogues and sycophants of the right, left, and all spaces in between.

 

[Caskett616]

Obviously a serious choice for someone in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. Dissent could be "...to their detriment" in a deadly way.

But what's the excuse of the American Muslims? Or French? Or British? Or Dutch? Or Belgian? Or...?

Where are they on Islamist terrorism? Which side are they on?

They need to do more than token appearances for solidarity photo opps at press conferences. A LOT more.

How many times can they say that Islam is not a hate filled religion?

And let's go back a few years - when Tim McVeigh blew up a building. Did people demand that bishops and other clergy speak out against him? And how about when Christians killed doctors who performed abortions - did people demand that clergy speak out against that? No they did not, because they understood that these acts were committed by evil people. It is the same thing here.