Mass Shooting at Orlando Club

[Magpie]

My boyfriend is in the process of becoming an American citizen. He's been here for 28 years. I have nothing against immigrants. But I do believe if you are connected to a terrorist group that preys on our country (if they can prove that his father is connected in some way) you should have your citizenship revoked. It shouldn't be revoked because of what he said because I believe 100% in freedom of speech. I'm sorry, I should have been clear about that.

I agree it's tempting to want to kick people we don't like out of the country, but...

The FBI lists many, many terrorist organizations operating on US soil, many of which are entirely American, domestically founded and run.

Should people with connections to the Ku Klux Klan have their citizenship revoked?

How about the Animal Liberation Front?

Or the Earth Liberation Front (classified by the FBI as a "top domestic terror threat")?

How about the Aryan Nation? I understand the Charleston shooter may have had connections to them (at the very least they've publicly supported his actions).

Will we revoke all of these peoples' citizenship, leaving them stateless?

While we should certainly screen people carefully during the immigration application process, I do not think - once acquired - that citizenship should be revoked on the basis of a person's political associations or activities. Charge these people with treason, instead. Charge them with any actual crimes they've committed. There's already laws on the books covering that!

 

[wilkeliza]

I really think they will no show like they've done so many times in the past. Even they seem to have enough common sense to know when things might not work out well for them. I'd imagine this might be one of those times.

I hope they don't show as well but when they threaten to it is always best to let people know to just ignore them. There are a lot of counter protests lined up to try and hold any of them back from getting to the families. It is sad that we need the counter protests even if they don't show up.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

I hope they don't show as well but when they threaten to it is always best to let people know to just ignore them. There are a lot of counter protests lined up to try and hold any of them back from getting to the families. It is sad that we need the counter protests even if they don't show up.

I have a feeling they might actually meet their match in hatred, and the desire to act upon that hatred if they decide to show up.

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

I agree it's tempting to want to kick people we don't like out of the country, but...

The FBI lists many, many terrorist organizations operating on US soil, many of which are entirely American, domestically founded and run.

Should people with connections to the Ku Klux Klan have their citizenship revoked?

How about the Animal Liberation Front?

Or the Earth Liberation Front (classified by the FBI as a "top domestic terror threat")?

How about the Aryan Nation? I understand the Charleston shooter may have had connections to them (at the very least they've publicly supported his actions).

Will we revoke all of these peoples' citizenship, leaving them stateless?

While we should certainly screen people carefully during the immigration application process, I do not think - once acquired - that citizenship should be revoked on the basis of a person's political associations or activities. Charge these people with treason, instead. Charge them with any actual crimes they've committed. There's already laws on the books covering that!

Not to mention the Black Panthers, American Nazi Party, White Aryan Resistance, etc etc etc
Plus the offshoots of all those groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...he_Southern_Poverty_Law_Center_as_hate_groups

 

[JaneBanks]

Don't forget the Irish-Americans who sent money over to the IRA...

 

[bcla]

My boyfriend is in the process of becoming an American citizen. He's been here for 28 years. I have nothing against immigrants. But I do believe if you are connected to a terrorist group that preys on our country (if they can prove that his father is connected in some way) you should have your citizenship revoked. It shouldn't be revoked because of what he said because I believe 100% in freedom of speech. I'm sorry, I should have been clear about that.

There is no indication that his father ever had a direct connection to the Taliban. The shooter was 29 and born in the US, so dad has been in the US for at least that length of time. Even if he had decided to go (while a US citizen) to Afghanistan/Pakistan and fight for the Taliban, the solution would have been to try him for his illegal acts rather than revoke his citizenship.

That he might publicly sympathisize with the Taliban is unfortunate, but not grounds for revocation of his naturalized citizenship. On top of that, the Taliban as a group has no interest outside of its own part of the world. They're an offshoot of groups that the US formerly supported.

I don't sympathize with the shooter's dad, but I'm realistic that he is considered a US citizen and has all the rights afforded to US citizens. The only difference between him and natural born citizens is the ability to be POTUS/VP.

 

[5DisneyNuts]

As I've said, I think there is a place in the nation's dialogue regarding gun access, however this to me is much more serious:

From the Washington Times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/14/illegal-immigrants-who-overstay-visas-almost-never/

"At least 480,000 people overstayed their visas last year, adding to a backlog that’s reached some 5 million total, members of Congress said. But immigration agents launched investigations into just 10,000 of them, or about 0.2 percent, and arrested fewer than 2,000, less than 0.04 percent, saying the others don’t rise to the level of being priority targets."

Where is the discussion on the failure of ICE, Homeland Security, DOJ? Not the failure of the people working in the field, I'm sure they are working 24/7, trying to keep up, but the failure of the higher ups that are just bungling things and handcuffing their staff on a daily basis. Let's start with the DOJ, the most corrupt (IMO) leadership there is.
How many millions of taxpayer money is spent on these organizations?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

A couple of days ago someone mentioned they'd heard on the news something about doors being locked. Has anyone seen this story? I wonder if this is what they were talking about.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...escaped-claims-thought-doing-right-thing.html

 

[DopeyDame]

As I've said, I think there is a place in the nation's dialogue regarding gun access, however this to me is much more serious:

From the Washington Times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/14/illegal-immigrants-who-overstay-visas-almost-never/

"At least 480,000 people overstayed their visas last year, adding to a backlog that’s reached some 5 million total, members of Congress said. But immigration agents launched investigations into just 10,000 of them, or about 0.2 percent, and arrested fewer than 2,000, less than 0.04 percent, saying the others don’t rise to the level of being priority targets."

Where is the discussion on the failure of ICE, Homeland Security, DOJ? Not the failure of the people working in the field, I'm sure they are working 24/7, trying to keep up, but the failure of the higher ups that are just bungling things and handcuffing their staff on a daily basis. Let's start with the DOJ, the most corrupt (IMO) leadership there is.
How many millions of taxpayer money is spent on these organizations?

What would ICE possibly have to do with a man born in Queens and living in Florida?
He didn't over stay his visa. He didn't have a visa, being that he was an American born son of Us citizen parents.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

Given the date of emigration of the father, it is probable, if not exceptionally likely, that he fought for the USA-backed Mujahideen that was recruited to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. When the Soviets withdrew, the USA had no further need for the Mujahideen and pulled all of its support and the proverbial rug out from under them. That resulted in the radicalization of many former Mujahideen (including Osama bin Laden), many of whom went on to form the Taliban.

I have no sympathy for the father's actions and think he is very likely an evil human being. But I will sadly not be surprised to find out that he had once been on "our side." The USA has a really unfortunate track record of the juntas, dictators, and regimes that it has backed through the years giving rise to even worse juntas, dictators, and regimes after they fell.

 

[5DisneyNuts]

My post referenced how out of control the immigration monitoring has become, which in my opinion, is as big an issue as monitoring home grown attacks - ICE is dedicated to ensuring immigration laws are being followed and clearly they are not.

There are many issues here. This is complicated and there are no easy answers. Guns? Radicalized citizens that were on the watch list and taken off? People overstaying their Visas?

This thread is addressing a lot of issues and I was adding my thoughts to that.

What would ICE possibly have to do with a man born in Queens and living in Florida?
He didn't over stay his visa. He didn't have a visa, being that he was an American born son of Us citizen parents.

 

[bcla]

What would ICE possibly have to do with a man born in Queens and living in Florida?
He didn't over stay his visa. He didn't have a visa, being that he was an American born son of Us citizen parents.

The status of his parents doesn't affect his own status. You know, 14th Amendment again.

 

[5DisneyNuts]

This murderer was on the radar of federal law enforcement at least twice and dropped at least twice. This is an internal failure of DOJ.

My quote about immigration control (ICE) mis-managing people extending visas was another example of things needing to be addressed.

What is the 14th amendment comment? I didn't mention a thing about an individual's citizenship other than to say if you break our country's laws you face prosecution.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

Dang, I need a new crystal ball vendor...

Mine isn't quite as crystal clear as some of you here.

Who do you use for your crystal ball purchases?

 

[longboard55]

Sounding more and more like he used the Isis to cover his real issue that was being gay

 

[bcla]

What is the 14th amendment comment? I didn't mention a thing about an individual's citizenship other than to say if you break our country's laws you face prosecution.

It wasn't a response anything you wrote. The perp was a US citizen as defined by the 14th Amendment, and nothing about his parents' status affected that unless one had diplomatic status. I was responding to another post that emphasized that his parents were US citizens, although it's not clear they were naturalized before or after his birth.

 

[DopeyDame]

It wasn't a response anything you wrote. The perp was a US citizen as defined by the 14th Amendment, and nothing about his parents' status affected that unless one had diplomatic status. I was responding to another post that emphasized that his parents were US citizens, although it's not clear they were naturalized before or after his birth.

I definitely didn't mean to imply that his parent's status was what GAVE him his citizenship. Just driving home the point that he was a citizen, so ICE has nothing to do with his being in the country, and also responding to the thoughts of several posts who seem to think that his father's citizenship is somehow "less than" their own citizenship.
Sorry if I confused the issue. I'm fully cognizant of the 14th amendment.

 

[dadtoagirl03]

the 14th amendment needs to be amended. If either of your parents aren't citizens and you are born on US soil citizenship shouldn't be granted. We're the welfare state of the world due to this clause.

 

[bcla]

I definitely didn't mean to imply that his parent's status was what GAVE him his citizenship. Just driving home the point that he was a citizen, so ICE has nothing to do with his being in the country, and also responding to the thoughts of several posts who seem to think that his father's citizenship is somehow "less than" their own citizenship.
Sorry if I confused the issue. I'm fully cognizant of the 14th amendment.

Well, I don't think that you meant it, but some do think of those with parents who aren't US citizens as somehow less deserving or lesser citizens.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Sounding more and more like he used the Isis to cover his real issue that was being gay

I don't know about that. I think things are beginning to filter out.

Saw this this morning.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...unman-Omar-Mateen-posted-Facebook-attack.html

Who knows if all of it is true (like with virtually all media these days), but point is, there's still lots we don't know.

"The Orlando gunman who killed 49 people at a gay club wrote a series of Facebook posts before and during the attack raging against the 'filthy ways of the west'.

Omar Mateen blamed US airstrikes for the death of 'innocent women and children', writing 'now taste the Islamic state of vengeance' on the same morning he fired shots into Pulse nightclub.

The Facebook posts were revealed in a letter sent by the Senate Homeland Security Committee to Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg that requested additional information on Mateen's online activity.

In another post he pledged his allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS, also writing 'America and Russia stop bombing the Islamic state' and 'may Allah accept me'.

Johnson said his staff had also learned that Mateen used Facebook to search for information on the San Bernardino shooters just two days before the attack on Pulse.

He also searched 'Baghdadi Speech' and searched for specific law enforcement offices.

Johnson said the committee had learned of five Facebook accounts associated with Mateen, and requested access to the activity logs, timeline information, messages, photos and posts.

The senator also asked that the company arrange a briefing with the committee by June 29 on the information 'available to Facebook prior to and during this terrorist attack'.

It has also been revealed that Mateen called a local news station in the middle of the attacks to pledge his allegiance to ISIS.

'I'm the shooter. It's me. I am the shooter,' the caller told the network's stunned Matthew Gentili.

Mateen then announced that he was carrying out the atrocity in the name of ISIS.

'He did it for ISIS, and he started speaking Arabic,' Gentili said. 'At the time, I didn't know what he was saying. He was speaking so fast. But it was...he was speaking fluently.'

The TV producer said he had answered the phone to hear the caller ask: 'Do you know about the shooting?'

After Gentili confirmed that he did, Mateen told him that he was the shooter and that he was carrying out the attack 'for ISIS' before lapsing into Arabic.

Gentili asked the caller to speak in English, and then Mateen once again pledged allegiance to the terrorist group.

'I did it for ISIS,' he said. 'I did it for the Islamic State.'