Mass Shooting at Orlando Club

[Pea-n-Me]

Ok, now, I've been away since this afternoon, but I started to see some reports that Disney had supposedly notified the FBI about this guy and his wife back in April, apparently because they were acting suspiciously when they were at WDW. We all know that Disney security is everywhere, and they no doubt pegged this guy pretty early. Off to see if I can find more about it. Has anyone else seen anything?

 

[FINFAN]

I just saw that. She lived across from Chicago Ridge Mall and my family lives only a couple milyep~hung out/worked at Ch away in Chicago. One of those "small world" moments.

yep~I hung out/worked at the mall...as you know OLCHS just down 95th. My DD told me many from her old work in Orlando have been donating blood and all her friends back there are still quite shaken by it all. Thankfully none were there, but she feels helpless out in CA with her friends hurting back where she wants to be.

 

[cabanafrau]

My daughter had one of the morning news shows on before I left for work. I heard a discussion that the shooter had a dream to be in the police academy and was denied acceptance and they're looking into that possibly fueling his anger. What made me stop and listen was a snip of the father being interviewed and saying, "I worked very hard to get him into the academy." The shooter was 30 years old? Odd statement for a father to be making IMO. Points to a father being over involved and controlling IMO, a father with very outspoken homophobic views. Food for thought in my mind.

 

[JimMIA]

I've been following the thread but have been wondering about the initial exchange of gunfire outside of Pulse. I keep reading elsewhere that the shooter and a security guard exchanged shots. Did the shooter attack the guard or did the guard see what was going to happen and go after the shooter?

I know that this will not change anything and I mean no disrespect to the memory of the victims by asking.

The initial reports I saw said the club employed an off-duty police officer who was stationed at the front door of the club for security. That officer supposedly challenged the killer, shots were exchanged, and the shooter ran inside the club and resumed shooting. I'm not sure how accurate that info is, but that's what was reported.

I have not received any "In Memoriam" notices about a police officer being killed in this situation, so I don't think there was a police death.

 

[JaxDad]

In other browsings unrelated to the Pulse shootings, I came across an interesting article in an unlikely place.

This is an article in today's Wall Street Journal by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a fellow at Harvard's Kennedy School: http://www.wsj.com/articles/islams-jihad-against-homosexuals-1465859170

It's a semi-scholarly study of Islam's harsh attitudes against gays.

As a straight man, I'm pretty ignorant of the types and scope of hatred toward gays, so I was surprised at the widespread oppression detailed in this article.

It's not only by the radical elements, but also by the laws of major Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Qatar, the UAE, and Afghanistan. The article states that in 40 out of 57 Muslim-majority countries, homosexuality is a crime, punishable in many cases by death! In addition to that, of course, there are the cultural pressures which are also discussed.

It's a pretty scary read.

This issue came up on another thread. While many were calling for boycotts of North Carolina for the transgender bathroom law, they did not seem to consider such laws in these countries, particularly the UAE. From Wiki, in the UAE "Sexual relations outside a traditional, heterosexual marriage are a crime. The death penalty applies for homosexuality." Some scenes in the last Star Wars movie were filmed in the UAE, but as far as I know there was no outcry or calls for boycotts.

 

[cabanafrau]

This issue came up on another thread. While many were calling for boycotts of North Carolina for the transgender bathroom law, they did not seem to consider such laws in these countries, particularly the UAE. From Wiki, in the UAE "Sexual relations outside a traditional, heterosexual marriage are a crime. The death penalty applies for homosexuality." Some scenes in the last Star Wars movie were filmed in the UAE, but as far as I know there was no outcry or calls for boycotts.

Actually there were some calls to boycott the movie and criticisms of Disney as being a company with enough resources not to need to cozy up to the UAE and save a few pennies on filming. But it was STAR WARS, so STAR WARS overrode any consideration of standing on those principles and the talk died out pretty quickly.

ETA: Kind of ironic counterpoint to the Chic Fil A thread, at least in my mind.

 

[DizBelle]

“If we lived in a righteous government, they should round them all up and put them up against a firing wall, and blow their brains out,” Jimenez said in the sermon.

Holy Crap!!!! I was going to say that I can't believe someone would actually say this but unfortunately, I can believe it. Just sad, sad, sad.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

“If we lived in a righteous government, they should round them all up and put them up against a firing wall, and blow their brains out,” Jimenez said in the sermon.

Holy Crap!!!! I was going to say that I can't believe someone would actually say this but unfortunately, I can believe it. Just sad, sad, sad.

They're just jealous that the Westboro Baptist Church is getting all the hate based publicity. They wanted to pass the hate plate for theirs.

 

[Magpie]

This issue came up on another thread. While many were calling for boycotts of North Carolina for the transgender bathroom law, they did not seem to consider such laws in these countries, particularly the UAE. From Wiki, in the UAE "Sexual relations outside a traditional, heterosexual marriage are a crime. The death penalty applies for homosexuality." Some scenes in the last Star Wars movie were filmed in the UAE, but as far as I know there was no outcry or calls for boycotts.

People tend - quite rightly! - to focus on the state of their own backyards. Just because the transgender bathroom law is many orders of magnitude less severe than the death penalty for homosexuality, doesn't make it right. So, when your own country does something wrong, it's perfectly reasonable to look for ways to protest. Thus, the boycotts of North Carolina.

"We should fix the rest of the world, before we fix our own country!" is not a particularly workable approach. Instead, we should (ideally) work on both. Edit: While simultaneously respecting the sovereignty of foreign nations, etc, etc.

 

[luvsJack]

My church wasn't the "kill them all" type but my female best friend was thrown out of the church after a year of being a youth leader and threated with statitory rape charges for being a 18 year old dating a 17 year old femal in the church. Having to sit listen to the elders decide her fait turned my stomach. It made my male best friend terrified to come out to me because he was worried that I wouldn't be his friend any more. I eventually left the church completely over its treatment of my LGBT friends. It followed at the baptaist college I went to when I had to sit and listen to a friend cry when he was outed because he was being removed from the school. Other friends hid who they were so much so that they married women and then ended up divorced pretty quickly and others are just now learning to accept themselves 8 years later.

There are different types of Baptist but none that I have attended would act the way you describe. The church cannot charge anyone with anything. and in most states 17/18 isn't statutory rape anyway. None of the preachers I have listened to over the years EVER spewed hate about anyone or anything. I am always surprised at the reports here about Baptist preachers saying anything like that. Most Baptist churches do not have "elders" who decide anything. We have deacons but they would not make decisions such as your friend's "fate". The entire church makes most decisions by vote (seriously, we vote on how much money to spend on flowers for the landscape or paint for the lines in the parking lot) And no one is thrown out of most Baptist churches. You become a member, you stay a member until you choose to move your membership.

 

[gwynne]

There are different types of Baptist but none that I have attended would act the way you describe. The church cannot charge anyone with anything. and in most states 17/18 isn't statutory rape anyway. None of the preachers I have listened to over the years EVER spewed hate about anyone or anything. I am always surprised at the reports here about Baptist preachers saying anything like that. Most Baptist churches do not have "elders" who decide anything. We have deacons but they would not make decisions such as your friend's "fate". The entire church makes most decisions by vote (seriously, we vote on how much money to spend on flowers for the landscape or paint for the lines in the parking lot) And no one is thrown out of most Baptist churches. You become a member, you stay a member until you choose to move your membership.

I think it's pretty much impossible to speak definitively about one individual congregation and assume that their beliefs are the same as others that have a similar name. These things can (and often do) vary greatly.

 

[wilkeliza]

There are different types of Baptist but none that I have attended would act the way you describe. The church cannot charge anyone with anything. and in most states 17/18 isn't statutory rape anyway. None of the preachers I have listened to over the years EVER spewed hate about anyone or anything. I am always surprised at the reports here about Baptist preachers saying anything like that. Most Baptist churches do not have "elders" who decide anything. We have deacons but they would not make decisions such as your friend's "fate". The entire church makes most decisions by vote (seriously, we vote on how much money to spend on flowers for the landscape or paint for the lines in the parking lot) And no one is thrown out of most Baptist churches. You become a member, you stay a member until you choose to move your membership.

I may have used the wrong terms as it was several years ago. I do know that it was a meeting between the deacons and pastor to decide what to do. Also the decision to bring charges was based on how they would consult with the family it involved. The father of the 17 year old went to the deacons and the pastor for guidance and thus the debate etc. I can not remember if Romeo and Juliet laws were in place in Texas in 2006 and when you are only 18 you believe adults when they tell you they can press charges on you. At the end of the day she was told she was not allowed on property any more and was no longer a member of the church. This church also voted on budget and dinners etc but there were decisions that were made by just the deacons and the pastor together then brought forth as the decision. So although that isn't how your church operated it is how this Southern Baptist church did. I actually know many many people who have left to go to other local churches because of how bad this one has gotten. They even removed a pastor from service because of rumors that his daughter may be a lesbian.

 

[JaxDad]

People tend - quite rightly! - to focus on the state of their own backyards. Just because the transgender bathroom law is many orders of magnitude less severe than the death penalty for homosexuality, doesn't make it right. So, when your own country does something wrong, it's perfectly reasonable to look for ways to protest. Thus, the boycotts of North Carolina.

"We should fix the rest of the world, before we fix our own country!" is not a particularly workable approach. Instead, we should (ideally) work on both. Edit: While simultaneously respecting the sovereignty of foreign nations, etc, etc.

Plus people really, really wanted to see the new Star Wars movie...

 

[mi*vida*loca]

My daughter had one of the morning news shows on before I left for work. I heard a discussion that the shooter had a dream to be in the police academy and was denied acceptance and they're looking into that possibly fueling his anger. What made me stop and listen was a snip of the father being interviewed and saying, "I worked very hard to get him into the academy." The shooter was 30 years old? Odd statement for a father to be making IMO. Points to a father being over involved and controlling IMO, a father with very outspoken homophobic views. Food for thought in my mind.

I took his statement to mean "I worked hard raising my son to be awesome, so I don't understand WHY he couldn't get into the academy."

Either way his father is a whack job and his pro Taliban statements and tv show should be enough reason to have his citizenship taken away. Deep down I don't think his father is remorseful for what his son has done. Not one bit.

 

[Magpie]

Plus people really, really wanted to see the new Star Wars movie...

That, too!

The original Star Wars was filmed in Southern Tunisia, which isn't any better...

So I think the next planet we visit should look like the the Norwegian Fjords.

 

[Magpie]

I took his statement to mean "I worked hard raising my son to be awesome, so I don't understand WHY he couldn't get into the academy."

Either way his father is a whack job and his pro Taliban statements and tv show should be enough reason to have his citizenship taken away.

Uh... can we take away the citizenship of some of those whackjob "pastors" too, while we're at it?

Seriously, though, stripping Americans of their citizenship because they've committed thought crimes is probably not a road anyone wants to go down. Americans seems to hold their "freedom of speech" quite dear.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Evelyn Beatrice Hall, aka S. G. Tallentyre (English writer).

Personally, I like hate speech laws, as they currently exist in Canada. It's a net broad enough to catch and punish both hate-mongering pastors and pro-Tabliban TV show hosts. But the US doesn't have anything like that, nor do I see them heading in that direction any time soon. It would be a violation of what most Americans consider their civil liberties.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

Uh... can we take away the citizenship of some of those whackjob "pastors" too, while we're at it?

Seriously, though, stripping Americans of their citizenship because they've committed thought crimes is probably not a road anyone wants to go down. Americans seems to hold their "freedom of speech" quite dear.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Evelyn Beatrice Hall, aka S. G. Tallentyre (English writer).

Personally, I like hate speech laws, as they currently exist in Canada. It's a net broad enough to catch and punish both hate-mongering pastors and pro-Tabliban TV show hosts. But the US doesn't have anything like that, nor do I see them heading in that direction any time soon. It would be a violation of what most Americans consider their civil liberties.

He's not a natural born citizen so I think stripping him of his citizenship shouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

[Mickey'sMainMami]

I took his statement to mean "I worked hard raising my son to be awesome, so I don't understand WHY he couldn't get into the academy."

Either way his father is a whack job and his pro Taliban statements and tv show should be enough reason to have his citizenship taken away. Deep down I don't think his father is remorseful for what his son has done. Not one bit.

I must have missed this about the father being pro taliban, last I remember the father saying is that he didn't miss his son at all because of what he did. In fact he just said he wished his son had never been born. He said crimes against humanity is a crime against all of us, or something like that, and he sent heart felt apologies to all the victims saying he was their family. He seemed pretty upset by it I thought, but honestly, I didn't watch the news last night and only have been keeping up with all the coverage thru MSN.com and social media. When did all of this come out that he is a Taliban supporter?

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

 

[CPanther95]

There are different types of Baptist but none that I have attended would act the way you describe. The church cannot charge anyone with anything. and in most states 17/18 isn't statutory rape anyway. None of the preachers I have listened to over the years EVER spewed hate about anyone or anything. I am always surprised at the reports here about Baptist preachers saying anything like that. Most Baptist churches do not have "elders" who decide anything. We have deacons but they would not make decisions such as your friend's "fate". The entire church makes most decisions by vote (seriously, we vote on how much money to spend on flowers for the landscape or paint for the lines in the parking lot) And no one is thrown out of most Baptist churches. You become a member, you stay a member until you choose to move your membership.

Yeah, in most states the age of consent is actually 16.