Marrieds choosing not to have kids

[raspberrysharpei]

I just wanted to pop in and stay thank you for all the different views in regards to my question. It seems as though I may have chosen a topic that can be easily argued. I found the reply about applying school taxes per child to be a great solution. Being CF, I don't mind contributing some tax dollars to public education, however, not being offered deductions or a credit each year, chaps my butt. I'd love to give my dog a social security number, he costs just as much as a kid

 

[maddhatir]

I'd love to give my dog a social security number, he costs just as much as a kid

OMG- I took mom's kitty to the University of Penn Vet Hospital a few weeks back- It cost me almost $$1000.00 !!!

When the doctor told me the tests Patches needed, of course I said YES please just find out what is wrong with her-- after she started listing all the tests and prices I almost fell off of my chair!!! I was trying to keep the shocked look off of my face as I told her to go ahead and do what needs to be done There would be no way I would say no.

There was a guy in the waiting room coming to pick up his RAT! He is a musician and travels a lot (he is from Philly and has a "home base" condo in the city) and has always had rats as pets. He said they are easy to take with him. He was in Key West when this rat started having his tooth problem- the guy bought a seat for the rat, flew home to go to U of Penn to have him checked out- they had to extract the tooth and keep the little guy overnight. The owner was there to pick him up. He said over the years he has always taken his rats to U Penn b/c he knows they will get good care.

......I wonder if you can get pet insurance for rats

 

[Hixski]

OMG- I took mom's kitty to the University of Penn Vet Hospital a few weeks back- It cost me almost $$1000.00 !!!

When the doctor told me the tests Patches needed, of course I said YES please just find out what is wrong with her-- after she started listing all the tests and prices I almost fell off of my chair!!! I was trying to keep the shocked look off of my face as I told her to go ahead and do what needs to be done There would be no way I would say no.

There was a guy in the waiting room coming to pick up his RAT! He is a musician and travels a lot (he is from Philly and has a "home base" condo in the city) and has always had rats as pets. He said they are easy to take with him. He was in Key West when this rat started having his tooth problem- the guy bought a seat for the rat, flew home to go to U of Penn to have him checked out- they had to extract the tooth and keep the little guy overnight. The owner was there to pick him up. He said over the years he has always taken his rats to U Penn b/c he knows they will get good care.

......I wonder if you can get pet insurance for rats

I don't know about rats but we have insurance for Duncan. It has come in handy a couple of times.

I swear every year when I fill out my income taxes that I am going to list Duncan as a dependent. Then I think about the IRS showing up at my door and come to my senses.

 

[ChisJo]

I don't know about rats but we have insurance for Duncan. It has come in handy a couple of times.

I swear every year when I fill out my income taxes that I am going to list Duncan as a dependent. Then I think about the IRS showing up at my door and come to my senses.

We can buy pet insurance here for any pets for $12/year....well worth the investment, especially if I had to take my Patches to the vet and it cost over $1000 - at least that would be covered. And, if I think about it, If she lived to be 15 years old, the total cost of the insurance over her life would only be $180.

 

[Hixski]

We can buy pet insurance here for any pets for $12/year....well worth the investment, especially if I had to take my Patches to the vet and it cost over $1000 - at least that would be covered. And, if I think about it, If she lived to be 15 years old, the total cost of the insurance over her life would only be $180.

That is really cheap for insurance. I think ours is around $28 a month. I can live with that.

We are going to WDW and the DCL cruise in a couple of weeks. Duncan will be going to the kennel. He loves it there and they spoil him rotten. But.....all that spoiling comes at a price. We will be paying for 11 nights and 10 days of Doggy Daycamp. Doggy Daycamp includes Yappy Hour. Duncan will spend all his time in Daycamp in the pool. My bill last year for 13 nights came to $550. His vacation cost as much as taking a kid with me.

 

[maddhatir]

We can buy pet insurance here for any pets for $12/year....well worth the investment, especially if I had to take my Patches to the vet and it cost over $1000 - at least that would be covered. And, if I think about it, If she lived to be 15 years old, the total cost of the insurance over her life would only be $180.

I know I should have gotten it long ago! But they state they do not cover pre-existing conditions (hyperthyroidism).

I am going to look into it for the other cat now.

 

[LuvsEpcot]

Hello all (I'm prepared for the flames )
I am hoping some of you can point me in the right direction. (Quick explanation)...I am enrolled in English course, addressing issues of Argument. The requirement is to create a series of argument essays and the instructor suggests to choose one issue that can be used for the semester.

I have located a few books such as "The Baby Boon", and "Child-free & Loving It". (Found them-have not received them).

Does anyone have an opinion that our government may be promoting or encouraging people to have children based on tax deductions, tax credits, etc.

Does anyone have a suggested reading or resource list??

Thanks,
DEE

Hey Dee,

Has anyone checked into the fact that the fertility drugs seemed to be terribly misused IMO. I've noticed on TV that women are giving birth to multiples and apparently that's not enough, they go back for more treatments and have multiples again. WHY? My DH and I talked about this one evening and I thought about our society and the anti-abortionists and think that our society have become enablers. People in communities who are generous and kind tend to help these multiple-birth people out by "donating" everything including houses!!! I have watched these parents try to go through a day taking care of these children and it just makes me cringe . I just don't understand how a couple can possibly say that they cannot choose just one or two babies and say that they cannot destoy a life that "God" has created, when it was science that was truly at work and the strength of the human genectic makeup. Come on people admit that science and great human minds made it possible for you to give birth to a litter. We really weren't meant to do that and when God's hand is in it, it usually doesn't happen that way. This argument really isn't about God vs Science, it's about good old common sense!

 

[Muushka]

Hey Dee,

Has anyone checked into the fact that the fertility drugs seemed to be terribly misused IMO. I've noticed on TV that women are giving birth to multiples and apparently that's not enough, they go back for more treatments and have multiples again. WHY? My DH and I talked about this one evening and I thought about our society and the anti-abortionists and think that our society have become enablers. People in communities who are generous and kind tend to help these multiple-birth people out by "donating" everything including houses!!! I have watched these parents try to go through a day taking care of these children and it just makes me cringe . I just don't understand how a couple can possibly say that they cannot choose just one or two babies and say that they cannot destoy a life that "God" has created, when it was science that was truly at work and the strength of the human genectic makeup. Come on people admit that science and great human minds made it possible for you to give birth to a litter. We really weren't meant to do that and when God's hand is in it, it usually doesn't happen that way. This argument really isn't about God vs Science, it's about good old common sense!

While I will agree with you that people who go through extraordinary measures to conceive probably should not, I will not agree that the children are disposable because of the way they were created.
God allowed it. This is like the abortion issue. Everyone will have an opinion about it and nobody will agree.
And believe me, this person (me) has a lot of common sense. I've gone for 50+ years without giving birth!

 

[momomonster]

LuvsEpcot didn't say CHILDREN are disposable (NO ONE says that), so if you are "disagreeing" with that idea you are putting words into her mouth. She is pointing out the hypocrisy of people who attribute everything they like to God and everything they don't to science, man, the Devil, or whatever else. I agree with her 100%.

 

[maddhatir]

I just don't understand how a couple can possibly say that they cannot choose just one or two babies and say that they cannot destoy a life that "God" has created, Come on people admit that science and great human minds made it possible for you to give birth to a litter.

A litter

OK this is just a question- do you mean choose one or two of the embyos, get rid of the rest, instead of giving birth to the whole litter???

 

[Muushka]

LuvsEpcot didn't say CHILDREN are disposable (NO ONE says that), so if you are "disagreeing" with that idea you are putting words into her mouth. She is pointing out the hypocrisy of people who attribute everything they like to God and everything they don't to science, man, the Devil, or whatever else. I agree with her 100%.

There lies the problem. I believe that a baby is a child. The OP said

I just don't understand how a couple can possibly say that they cannot choose just one or two babies and say that they cannot destoy a life that "God" has created, when it was science that was truly at work and the strength of the human genectic makeup.

I honestly do not know any other way to interpret this. For some it would be all right to eliminate an embryo, fetus, baby, child, whatever because "man" created it. I do not think that it is all right. My opinion. I am not asking you to agree with me.

This is a nice thread. I hesitated posting because it always goes back to the abortion issue. I will not debate this. Sorry. Done.

 

[momomonster]

I believe that a baby is a child.

Again, EVERYONE believes babies are children. If you want to say feti=children, THEN there is a debatable topic. Until you're honest enough to do so, you have no basis for argument.

And while we're being honest, lets admit God/mother nature/The Force/The Flying Spaghetti Monster is responsible for most abortions since roughly half of all fertilized eggs never make it through development because the replicating DNA goes wonky, it never attaches to the uterus, or any number of reasons.

I'm saying all of this as a 36 year old woman who has NEVER been pregnant (as far as I know), so I'm not trying to justify anything.

 

[momomonster]

No- I have not seen it. I do, however, have plenty of still pics FROM the movie-

I really should just sit down and order every one of his movies from Deep Discount all at once.

I did just see The Man Who Cried for the first time about a month ago.

I didn't know about The Man Who Cried. Thanks, I've added it to my Netflix Q. I wasn't crazy about Sleepy Hollow (another Christina Ricci/JD movie), but it was a long time ago and could have been my mood. . .

Dead Man is so wonderful, one of those amazing artsy sleeper films. I think it slipped by most people because the filmmaker and distributor couldn't see eye-to-eye and it wasn't promoted properly. DH and I were the only ones in the theater to see it opening weekend, along with one other guy! Granted, this was before JD found mass-market success.

Dead Man has an all-star cast, too; Gabriel Byrne, Robert Mitchum, John Hurt, Crispin Glover, Billy Bob Thorton, Iggy Pop. . .Gary Farmer is amazing in it, too.

 

[maddhatir]

Dead Man has an all-star cast, too; Gabriel Byrne, Robert Mitchum, John Hurt, Crispin Glover, Billy Bob Thorton, Iggy Pop. . .Gary Farmer is amazing in it, too.

I love Crispin Glover, you do not see him around that much! He was in Gilbert Grape w/ JD too, another awesome movie, I can watch over and over- have you seen it?

Billy Bob!! DH and I can watch ANYTHING he is in- we love him as an actor! Very neurotic in real life, have you ever heard him talking about his OCD I love him!

And Iggy? I wonder if that is how they became friends- or if they knew each other before the film??

 

[momomonster]

I love Crispin Glover, you do not see him around that much! He was in Gilbert Grape w/ JD too, another awesome movie, I can watch over and over- have you seen it?

Billy Bob!! DH and I can watch ANYTHING he is in- we love him as an actor! Very neurotic in real life, have you ever heard him talking about his OCD I love him!

And Iggy? I wonder if that is how they became friends- or if they knew each other before the film??

LOVE Gilbert Grape, I could watch it over and over, too. If you like Crispin Glover, then I think you will like Dead Man because it's a bit unnerving like his personality. He only has a bit part, but it's great.

Billy Bob was still a chunky dude when Dead Man was filmed, and he's a fur trader wrapped in all these furs, so you might not immediately recognize him, but you'll definitely know that voice! We love him, too. . . Bad Santa? Comic genius!

I haven't heard him talk about his OCD, but I bet it's funny. . . I'll go do a youtube search. . .

I have no idea when Iggy and JD met, but I would guess it was prior to the movie since he already owned that club in LA.

 

[LuvsEpcot]

A litter

OK this is just a question- do you mean choose one or two of the embyos, get rid of the rest, instead of giving birth to the whole litter???

Yes maddhatir, that's exactly what I mean. When people go through the fertility process they will normally have several fertilized eggs, so instead of being realistic about having one or two hopefully healthy babies they don't want to be the one to play "god" and say "let's keep 1 or 2" and be okay with that decision. We are so afraid of what others will think of us. Anyone that goes through the fertility process should know early on that there is a probability they will have several fertilized eggs. As educated, mature persons that want to be parents, they should have to "own up" to the responsiblity to make the decision. If they don't seriously think that it will come to that, then they have not done their homework on the subject, and I feel, are not ready to become parents. If they cannot make that first tough choice, then what about the future of their "litter?"

I'm not trying to debate the abortion issue, everyone is free to feel how they feel about that subject. Just don't ever take my daughter's rights away, please! My point is, I'm tired of seeing people rewarded for acting like they're doing such a noble thing when in my humble opinion it is cowardly for not making a mature, educated choice when the time comes. They act and say they had no choice, when that is so far from the truth.

I turned 50 last week and have two daughters 20 and age 25 . During their maturing process I have been tested on every serious issue I've ever believed strongly in. It has been a very enlightening process. I'm so glad that I broke out of my parents' mold and became a free thinker and in turn allowed the same for my girls. I won't say it's been easy, but it is rewarding when you see the "lightbulb moment."

 

[maddhatir]

Yes maddhatir, that's exactly what I mean. When people go through the fertility process they will normally have several fertilized eggs, so instead of being realistic about having one or two hopefully healthy babies they don't want to be the one to play "god" and say "let's keep 1 or 2" and be okay with that decision. We are so afraid of what others will think of us. Anyone that goes through the fertility process should know early on that there is a probability they will have several fertilized eggs. As educated, mature persons that want to be parents, they should have to "own up" to the responsiblity to make the decision. If they don't seriously think that it will come to that, then they have not done their homework on the subject, and I feel, are not ready to become parents. If they cannot make that first tough choice, then what about the future of their "litter?"

I'm not trying to debate the abortion issue, everyone is free to feel how they feel about that subject. Just don't ever take my daughter's rights away, please! My point is, I'm tired of seeing people rewarded for acting like they're doing such a noble thing when in my humble opinion it is cowardly for not making a mature, educated choice when the time comes. They act and say they had no choice, when that is so far from the truth.

I turned 50 last week and have two daughters 20 and age 25 . During their maturing process I have been tested on every serious issue I've ever believed strongly in. It has been a very enlightening process. I'm so glad that I broke out of my parents' mold and became a free thinker and in turn allowed the same for my girls. I won't say it's been easy, but it is rewarding when you see the "lightbulb moment."

I agree with what you are saying.

DH and I watched this show about this family with like 18 kids!!!! They were building this HUGE house with an industrial kitchen, it was just crazy.

I did not get to finish watching it! I wanted to see who was paying for this house- I DOUBT it was him.

 

[LuvsEpcot]

I agree with what you are saying.

DH and I watched this show about this family with like 18 kids!!!! They were building this HUGE house with an industrial kitchen, it was just crazy.

I did not get to finish watching it! I wanted to see who was paying for this house- I DOUBT it was him.

I know the show you're talking about and believe it or not, they are paying for everything they own, and they buy used, scratch & dent stuff. I actually have to applaud this family they are very self sufficient and do not rely on any outside help. She is Fertile Myrtle and they want a HUGE family and they are devote christians. Before they started on their family they invested like crazy in real estate and bought land that they knew they wanted to build their dream home on. See, they thought it out, saved, invested, and planned for it. Also they have a buddy system so that everytime she has a child and it is old enough to be weaned the next oldest sibling in line begins caring and mentoring it. They run a tight ship and everyone does their part. They built their house from scratch, bringing in expertise when needed. They wanted the experience because the children are homeschooled so they use any and every excuse to teach the children anything and everything. It's really great because they are not wanting nor expecting anyone's assistance and their children will grow up to appreciate things so much more.

I know you probably think I'm crazy for applauding them, but this family is sooo opposite from what I was ranting about. They educated themselves and were prepared for whatever may come, and Mom and Dad actually look like they are rested and very happy.

 

[kennancat]

Yes maddhatir, that's exactly what I mean. When people go through the fertility process they will normally have several fertilized eggs, so instead of being realistic about having one or two hopefully healthy babies they don't want to be the one to play "god" and say "let's keep 1 or 2" and be okay with that decision. We are so afraid of what others will think of us. Anyone that goes through the fertility process should know early on that there is a probability they will have several fertilized eggs. As educated, mature persons that want to be parents, they should have to "own up" to the responsiblity to make the decision. If they don't seriously think that it will come to that, then they have not done their homework on the subject, and I feel, are not ready to become parents. If they cannot make that first tough choice, then what about the future of their "litter?"

A good example of what you're referring to is the McCaughey family (and I'm thrilled that I had to go the the internet to look that nameup, as opposed to the Duggar family, which has been burned into my brain). This is the family where the mom took Clomid and ended up with septuplets, but would not consider selective reduction. From what I've seen online, two of those kids do suffer from cerebral palsy. Personally, I believe that if you won't consider selective reduction, you have no business taking Clomid. Same goes with IVF of putting 4-5 embryos in at once. My feeling is that people shouldn't start down this road unless they are prepared to deal with all the difficult decisions down it. In other words, if you're going to play God, play God the whole way through

We've had a few friends go through IVF so I've had some exposure to that procedure. They did fertilize multiple eggs, but our friends chose to implant no more than two at a time for the exact reasons listed above. Also, fertility clinics now have to report successful pregnancies as well as multiple pregnancies - I don't know all the reasons behind it, but I know there's some stuff in place that makes multiples less desirable, so many of the clinics won't put in a whole bunch anymore hoping that at least one will make it. I think they didn't use to have to report the multiples, only the successful pregnancies, which didn't exactly encourage responsible behavior. Anyway, the eggs that are not implanted are usually put in cryogenic storage. As to what happens with any unused embryos, I think the choices are to donate them to other infertile couples, donate to scientific research, or have them destroyed. I know at least one couple we know did have unused ones and were struggling with what to do with them. Needless to say, I have not asked if/what they decided - figure that's a tough choice and none of my business.

 

[momomonster]

Also they have a buddy system so that everytime she has a child and it is old enough to be weaned the next oldest sibling in line begins caring and mentoring it. They run a tight ship and everyone does their part.

I, myself, have a huge problem with this. The KIDS didn't choose this. They weren't asked "Hey, is it OK if you become the babysitter for Jr. # 14?" (WHILE they're still children themselves!) There is no way on earth this family can give each child the attention each deserves.

Gross. And her body has to be SHOT.