Maintenance Dues out of this world

[Fitswimmer]

Can we not apply logic to vacation please?

I agree! I didn't go into this blind, but I didn't overanalyze it either. I know that I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE going to WDW and since I've felt that way since 1971 I don't really see that changing any time soon. I also LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the special feeling I get staying at accomodations like Boardwalk-which until I joined DVC was my favorite resort. So, for me-DVC was an obvious choice, even with the cost of maintenance.

 

[crazywig]

This doesn't seem to be a great deal consdering the following: in the last 10 years value resorts have been increasing on average 1.3%/year. Moderates have been increasing 2.5%/year. I am basing my comparisions on moderate or value resorts b/c we would be staying in a studio at the DVC and in my opinion the DVC studios do not seem THAT much better than a value resort and equal to a moderate room.

i have got to disagree here. i often stay at value/mod on weekends and they are in no way even close to a studio.

 

[Parkhopper13]

Forgive me if this is not the place to post. I'm new to all of this and this board. My DH, kids and I have been going to WDW once sometimes twice a year. One year we did purchase AP and DDE. We have taken ap discounts etc. We enjoy the TS meals which add a great deal to the expense. We would not consider cooking (don't cook much at home).

The last couple years we have went with Free dining. Disney does not offer this to DVC, is that correct. Our last vacation we spent (or did not spend) almost $2,000 on a 10 day trip. Has anyone looked at these discounts when looking at costs?

I know that is hard to do, since wdw does not always offer discounts. Basically, if we don't get significant discounts, we don't go. We have had no problem planning around discounts so far. The room only discounts seem to be fading and not as significant, but the free dining more then makes up for this for us. Maybe economics will not influence disney to offer discounts on some years. Well that is the years we will simply go elsewhere for vacations. Then come back when they are offered. I think it is safe to say all businesses hit down cycles. And while there is not certain that discounts will always be offered, it is certain that there will be lean years and times where they could be.

Again, sorry if anything above is ignorant of dvc. We are just now looking into it. Have not made any meetings to get more details. Have never rented points and are just now trying to educate ourselves. Maybe will attend a meeting on our next visit.

I think you make an excellent point. You certainly might do much better sitting and waiting for the right deals to come along. Only, that is not for everybody. I love knowing we are going to go back to Disney every year, when we choose, not to be at the mercy of specials, which may or may not come along. Also, DVC members get many discounts that regular visitors do not receive. These can be valuable as well. It really depends most on your travel habits and flexibility.

 

[lisaviolet]

This doesn't seem to be a great deal consdering the following: in the last 10 years value resorts have been increasing on average 1.3%/year. Moderates have been increasing 2.5%/year. I am basing my comparisions on moderate or value resorts b/c we would be staying in a studio at the DVC and in my opinion the DVC studios do not seem THAT much better than a value resort and equal to a moderate room.
Any thoughts?

Here are my thoughts on moderate/Value vs. studio. They do not compare at all. We did a huge extended family in May. Ran out of DVC points and for our last few nights after everyone else left we stayed at POR. I love that resort. I've also stayed at ASMu this year. I like the Values. At times over my DVC contract I will go to both resorts for sure (first night on a late flight, run out of points etc.)

Neither compares to a DVC studio. Honestly, I was surprised how I felt b/c POR, IMO, is one of the best deals on property. It is so beautiful. Well I "looked" for my kitchenette, I "looked" for my couch, I "looked" for my private balcony, I "looked" for my extra space etc. This suprised me. To miss these aspects especially on a short three night stay. We get so spoiled. I certainly wasn't unhappy staying at either but they really don't compare at all.

 

[TheRustyScupper]

. . . if I buy into the SSR that means that I will have to pay 48 years of dues...and at $4 a point (and it will continue to increase) that's an additional $48,000..bringing the total to at least $73,000 . . .

And your point is what?

 

[fishermouse]

I was just wondering if everyone else has the same concerns I do about maintenance dues...I'm looking to buy into the DVC and the initial price per point is more than OK for me (let's consider 25,000 for 250 as an example) but if I buy into the SSR that means that I will have to pay 48 years of dues...and at $4 a point (and it will continue to increase) that's an additional $48,000..bringing the total to at least $73,000. That is a lot of money for something that I will loose on Jan 31st 2054. What do you all think?

Using your numbers thats only $1520.00 a year, depending on your vacations you can get 2 or 3 trips out of that. Even if you only take one trip $1500. is a fantastic bargain for what your getting. Of course dues will go up but so will everything else including incomes, so using todays dollars DVC looks like a good deal!!! Baring any unanticipated complications DVC should continue to be a good thing at a reasonable cost.

 

[mamatojon]

...This doesn't seem to be a great deal consdering the following: in the last 10 years value resorts have been increasing on average 1.3%/year. Moderates have been increasing 2.5%/year. I am basing my comparisions on moderate or value resorts b/c we would be staying in a studio at the DVC and in my opinion the DVC studios do not seem THAT much better than a value resort and equal to a moderate room. ...

Well, it is all a matter of perception isn't it? I definitely see a tremendous difference between a studio and values/moderates. Maybe not in sleeping space (although studios do have queens, not fulls), but definitely in resort quality/amenities. If you don't see any difference, then you definitely would be better off not buying in, you'll just be wasting money.

 

[drakethib]

I am a new DVCer and also a Certified Financial Planner with an MBA in Finance. Before purchasing, I did the numbers many times over, made many spreadsheets and asked a few questions on this board so I understood exactly what I was getting into. Although I agree that I love Disney and many seem to feel that you can't put a price on that...you actually can. I wanted to make sure that the cost would be replaced in value over time. I hate getting ripped off.

I want to clear up a few misconceptions.

First, you cannot look at dollars in absolute terms. Stating that your maintanence could be $8000 in 46 years, and that being very scary is misleading. Time-value of money and inflation must be considered. Accomodations at a comparable Disney resort could easily be $20,000 a week in 2052. Average nationwide salaries could be $1,000,000/year, so why is $6,000/year scary.

Second, the maintanence fees for Disney I find to be a little high, but that is because Disney provides very high end service and accomadations. They are not making a profit on maint., so like with anything, you pay for what you get. High cost=better quality....generally. With Disney, this always seems to be true.

I won't bore you with my calcs and spreadsheets, but let me just say that if you plan to go to Disney regularly...even if you don't and just plan on renting out points, I found this to be a very beneficial and even valuable opportunity Disney has offered us, assuming you don't finance the purchase at too high a rate. I for one am glad to be a part of it, both from a financial side, and from the "kid at heart" side.

As a man who crunches numbers for a living I would love to see your spreadsheets. (I am anal like that).

The end result for me is that I bought DVC because I knew I would enjoy it. No math needed on that equation.

 

[Cruelladeville]

I suppose you could compare a moderate resort to a studio when trying to figure out if DVC is worth it, but they aren't really equal. After being a DVC member for over 10 years, I stayed recently at POR. There was no refrigerator to put my left-overs(from the Dining Plan), and no microwave to heat up the left-overs, anyway. Where was the toaster for my morning bagel? Where was the balcony for me to sit on while having my morning coffee? And why weren't the rooms very cool--maybe it was the window air conditioner? And the room seemed crowded, even with only two of us in it. It was educational, though, because when we joined DVC, I used the prices at POR to decide if DVC was worth it. We paid $56 a point, and we figured it would take 5 -6 years to break even. In fact, it turned out to be much quicker--if we sold now, we would recoup all our dues, and actually make money off the sale. It was much more than we had hoped for when we joined DVC.

 

[Parkhopper13]

"As a man who crunches numbers for a living I would love to see your spreadsheets. (I am anal like that). "

I would be happy to send them to you. DISboards won't let me post my email, but if you could contact me somehow through these boards, perhaps a PM, I will send them to you.

 

[LarryM]

We bought 450 points over two contracts in Jan 2000. To figure out if it was worth it I calculated all the nights we have stayed or taken family with us at 30% off of published rate to account for discounts to this point. Late into 2005 we broke even for our initial out lay and after next summer we will have broken even for for dues to date. Then we will just be staying for our dues. I dont think you could get 3 1/2 week in a studio or two weeks in a one bedroom for what our dues are. Of course that will change based upon room size or view and when you buy in. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Budahman]

We were considering buying 230 points at SSR. With 10% down and 5 year financing the total cost before annual dues is $29,440. In 2006 annual dues are $915.58 for SSR. It appears through examination of other DVC properties that the annual dues increase about 4% each year. Over a 48 year period the total cost of the annual dues is $166,248. Consequently, the total cost over 48 years is $195,688. (BTW- in the 48th year we would be paying $6012 in annual dues- yikes!)

OK, to break this down even easier. Going by if the dvc dues keep going up just 4% (and they could go up to 15%) a year. On the 48th year of our contract as stated above..we'd be paying $6012 in JUST dues for that year. I am seeing that everyone who bought into DVC knows this and understands this.??! Now...In 24 years from now (thats half of the term)...wed' be paying $3006 a year in JUST dues.
I'm thinking there is gonna be ALOT of resales in a few years.

I'm pretty bummed....I really wanted to buy into this, but it looks like it is not the correct decision for us. Guess I'll still take my 19 days a year trip to WDW, but i'll be staying in values and moderates. Thats the way its been anyway and I havent complained yet.

Man I love WDW.!

 

[JustSayin]

OK, to break this down even easier. Going by if the dvc dues keep going up just 4% (and they could go up to 15%) a year. On the 48th year of our contract as stated above..we'd be paying $6012 in JUST dues for that year. I am seeing that everyone who bought into DVC knows this and understands this.??! Now...In 24 years from now (thats half of the term)...wed' be paying $3006 a year in JUST dues.
I'm thinking there is gonna be ALOT of resales in a few years.

I'm pretty bummed....I really wanted to buy into this, but it looks like it is not the correct decision for us. Guess I'll still take my 19 days a year trip to WDW, but i'll be staying in values and moderates. Thats the way its been anyway and I havent complained yet.

Man I love WDW.!

I can't say for sure that DVC makes sense for you, but there are a few things you might want to keep in mind.

First of all. Yes, DVC maintenance fees for 2054 look really high right now, but as others have pointed out, that is in 2054 dollars which aren't worth as much.

Second, the cost of hotels will also go up. Also, make sure you figure in the substantial tax that you have to add on to the price of your hotel accommodations.

I think you have to compare maintenance fees to current hotel rates. Maintenance fees are based on the same expenses that the other Disney hotels have. Disney makes no money on the maintenance fees. If you compare the cost of 19 days in a moderate to what you would pay in dues (I am guessing $1100 - $1200 if you are looking at 19 days) you will have a more accurate picture of the savings.

When I compared the numbers I was about $58,000 dollars ahead buying DVC with both maintenance fees and hotel rates going up 4%.

 

[irishbacker92]

$5 mf/point * 150 points = $750

4 tickets for decent seats at an average NFL game- $800

Different Strokes for Different Folks.

 

[rkdahl]

Like many folks we bought DVC and worried about the dues and maintenance fees. We bought OKW in '93 and had 190 points. After going down the first 2 years we enjoyed the stays so much and saw such an opportunity that we did several add ons and got to 425 points total.

What we then did was start to rent out about half of our DVC points every other year to mostly family and some friends as well. We did that to cover our dues. I charged them less than $10/point usually and felt very comfortable that both of us were getting a good value. My family and friends had a great place to stay, we got our dues paid...and usually more.

Over all these years we've never advertised any rentals. We've also never rented more than 250 points in any year which even then still allowed us 175 point to use that year. And that family 250 point rental at $9/point paid for our dues for 2 years.

So with the occassional family or close friends rental, and the thousands of $$ we saved on park tickets in the 90's when that deal was going, has made our DVC very, very much a fun and rational investment over the years. We consider it a great value that has allowed us to take many fun vacations to places we would have never gone and staying at accomodations we could never have afforded.

My outlook remains positive on our cash flow and our investment.

 

[Tamar]

All I can say is, if you're not comfortable, don't buy in. We didn't buy in in 1997 because I wasn't comfortable with the fact that dues "could" go up by 15% a year.

In 2001, after watching the dues NOT go up that much, and after experiencing the BW area with a stay at the Swan (we could NEVER afford the Disney Deluxe resorts in that area on cash), we took the plunge and bought 150 points. Now we have 500 points, and I can truly say there has not been ONE MINUTE when I have regretted it...not when I was saving $20/day by having breakfast in the room, not when I was settling in on the couch with a glass of wine and a book before bed, not when I was walking out of the resort at the end of the stay with no hotel bill, and not when our trips to Disney increased from once-every-two-years to 3-4 trips every alternate year (we buy APs every other year and use the crap out of them). Poor us!!

 

[toesmom]

I assumed 4% increase in maintenance fees over the years until 2054, and with the full payment for 150 points at SSR (we did not finance), it worked out to just about $2,000 Canadian dollars per year until 2054 (and that is in today's dollars). My total was about $100,000 Canadian for the life of the contract.

So basically it's a great deal...

In today's dollars, $2,000 for about 12 nights accomodations (we took 2 separate trips - coming from Canada hard to do anymore than that)... it's comparable to moderate hotels now....


But in 20 years... $2,000 will be a BARGAIN!


And there is absolutely no comparison between the values and DVC studios - we've done both, I assure you, no comparison at all.

 

[Jeremy&Susan]

If maintenance fees continue to grow at 5% per year, the cost per point in 2054 if you are now paying $4 / point, would be.................through the magic of interest rates .....
=4.00 X (1.05)^48 = 41.19 / point

So for your 150 point contract you would have a bill for ..
150 X 41.19 = 6240.76 US dollars, no offense meant to those Canadian folks aye.
BTW if maintenance fees continue at present 4% cost increases through 2054, the cost for 150 points would be $3942.32 .

So your one week vacation in 2054 would cost you $6241 @ 5% rate or 3942 @ 4%. I'm pretty sure that will be a good deal.

If you want to do the math and assume only 3% inflation rate (on the low side but we have had low rates lately) and a present vacation cost of $2K at a bargain resort (not $5k+ at a high end), your numbers would be ....... again through the wonders of interest rates..............

=2000 X (1.03)^48 = 8264.50

also if inflation is rising at 3% chances are maint. fees will only rise at a little over 3%.
As a side note historical inflation over the past 48 years (Jan 58 - Jan 06) has been 3.77% (http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx) , so the math above would look even more favorable toward buying into DVC.

 

[Jeremy&Susan]

"As a man who crunches numbers for a living I would love to see your spreadsheets. (I am anal like that). "

I would be happy to send them to you. DISboards won't let me post my email, but if you could contact me somehow through these boards, perhaps a PM, I will send them to you.

Parkhopper let me know if the above numbers satisfied you're fetish.

Also if your yearly income is say $30K/ yr and you get a 2% raise per year, you will be happy to hear that in 48 years you will be making .....

=$30K X (1.02)^48 = $77,612 / yr
If you boss really likes you and you get 3% raise each year you would be making just under $124K / yr.

This proves sucking up to the boss for a mere 1% increase in your raise really pays off.

 

[shellbelle1971]

Has anyone looked at these discounts when looking at costs?

I know that is hard to do, since wdw does not always offer discounts. Basically, if we don't get significant discounts, we don't go. We have had no problem planning around discounts so far. The room only discounts seem to be fading and not as significant, but the free dining more then makes up for this for us. .

When we made the decision to buy DVC we (like everyone, I think!) ran the numbers through many possible scenarios. We were pleasantly surprised to discover that DVC made financial sense over the long term for our family even compared to staying offsite in Residence Inns every other year (which is what we would most often do without DVC.)

Of course each family is unique! Our family is relatively "different" from most in that a 2-bedroom unit is the smallest accommodation we can squeeze ourselves into, and having a full kitchen for at least 2 meals per day is an absolute must (herding all 6 kids into a restaurant 3x/day is the exact opposite of relaxing!)

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that factors that make DVC a substantial cost savings for us may not work out the same for you. I suggest you set up your spreadsheet to compare the cost of DVC to the cost of whatever you would normally do without it. Happily for us at least, the comparison made DVC a no brainer.