Lower than low resales...

[Blahnde]

The other area we could point fingers is toward DVC for selling more aggressively and (arguably) to more people who shouldn't have bought in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but prior to SSR/AVK buyers had to come up with a full 20% down payment. Now they are applying incentives to a 10% down payment, meaning people can get in the door for as little as $500. That policy change clearly pre-qualifies many more people than 5-6 years ago.

I suspect Dean is correct about the downpayment being 10% for a while, but I do know that they have changed the way they allow buyers to use the incentive monies. When we bought an add-on at AKV 16 months ago, we had to pay the 10% deposit up front and the $8 per point incentive was taken off the balance due that we have since paid off. When we purchased our BLT add-on last week, they took the $5 per point incentive off our 10% deposit, effectively cutting it almost in half.

Since we plan to pay the balance when the first payment is due (just like the AKV add-on) it will not make any difference to us. We simply use the loan system as a 2-3 month interest free deferred payment plan. However, not only does it make a big difference in the amount of interest DVD would receive over the life of a longer (10 year) loan, but as "tjkraz" suggested it may have qualified some people that financially should not be buying into DVC in the first place.

And it is my opinion that there are many recent owners (which would be primarily SSR and AKV owners) that have gotten themselves in financial trouble with DVD's help, and that this accounts for the high number of resales for these properties. I truly do not believe the sky is falling, but there are definitely people that are hurting and as a luxury DVC ownership would be one of the first things to go. Just like Dean and "tjkraz," I think money woes and the base number of points offered have much more to do with SSR resales (both the volume and prices) than the popularity of the resort itself.

Blahnde

 

[lugnut33]

Fact is SSR - which is much newer than BCV, BWV and VWL, and offers more years of membership - is commanding substantially less in resale. Not to mention the fact it always seems to have availabilities. Which you can't say for those other properties.
.

Which is exactly the reason I bought into SSR through resale. It made way more sense to pay less and get more. And, in the future I'll be trying to book at pristine VWL, BWV, BLT, AKV, and others. Hopefully I won't take a room that you'll be trying to reserve.

You know what we Wisconsinites call people from Illinois?

You did make some very valid points about the construction of SSR. Too bad they didn't consult you first.

 

[tjkraz]

DVC has had a 10% down options for some time, certainly as long as I've been around DVC starting in 1994. I'm not personally aware of anytime when it was 20% only or more but there may be times when it was and I'm not aware of it.

I had to go back to my paperwork and check. We first purchased back in '03 and here's the way that it worked.

The minimum downpayment was 20%. If there were any promotional discounts offered, they would be part of the 20%. To the best of my knowledge, discounts weren't nearly as commonplace back then. Most often the only way to get any sort of discount was with the Magical Beginnings promotion, where buyers got $10 off per point in return for surrendering their first year's points back to DVC.

So back then it was 20% down with incentives (if available) included in the 20%.

Then a couple years later it became a flat 10% down with any incentives taken off of the principle.

Now, as Blahnde illustrated, it's 10% down with the incentives included in the 10%.

Interest rates are also higher than they were 5 years ago.

So, I think it's clear DVC is going out of its way to attract more borderline customers--customers who are one layoff away from having to sell their DVC in order to make the mortgage payment.

I don't think SSR is truly sold out though I know some guides have told members that recently. Maybe it happened and I don't recall, has DVC declared it sold out officially? Of course the THV will alter that regardless. DVC has a history of declaring resorts sold out that were not, VWL and HH come to mind. Certainly SSR was never on the same pricing level as AKV so it's hard to compare on that front.

Someone here was tracking the amendments which declared SSR points into inventory. Back in the spring I remember reading that they had declared all but two floors of the final building into inventory.

In May they did put something on the member website stating that points were running low. Incentives ended in July. And there was a period in late-June / early-July when people trying to add were temporarily put on waiting lists due to lack of points matching their Use Year.

There was no specific "sold out" announcement, but perhaps the treehouses played a role in that.

 

[kikiq]

Then a couple years later it became a flat 10% down with any incentives taken off of the principle.

We bought last summer at DLR and that is how our purchase was. We were prepared to put down 20% ourselves and then pay it off with DH bonuses. But then our guide started with all the incentives and it ended up another 10% from the principle. We just added enough to make it 25% down.

Thank you tjkaz also for the FACTUAL numbers of each resort.

 

[dudelydude]

Well I think that was downright tacky. Im not even an Il native, but the people of Plainfield are to be commended for rebuilding their community.
Total insensitivity and shameful that you actually live in the same state.

Thank you. I am not even going to respond to his last comment - immature. I read his other posts and he spends quite a bit of time annoying people in other threads with his SSR issues...makes me want to buy SSR, knowing that I would never run into him there.

 

[jdg345]

I did notice that they were stripped but 71$/point for one of DVC newest resort. WOW! That's a bargain and a half.

Well, if you consider spending upwards of $15,000 on something you can't use for 2 years a 'bargain' ...

 

[jdg345]

Well considering I paid $79 per point for SSR back in 2003, got full developer points and 2 Annual Passes, if I had to sell my stripped points for $71, I would feel pretty good and DO feel good about my SSR purchase. Not bad for 5 years of vacations.

I think the intent of this post was not true concern for SSR owners or their portfolios.

Agreed; I paid low 80's per point on my SSR Contracts, but also got developer points, plus previous UY points, plus annual passes. Considering that the recent vacation I took which included a GV and 1BR would have cost somewhere around $8000 if booked at rack rate, I'm not at all concerned here.

 

[LadyKay]

Well, if you consider spending upwards of $15,000 on something you can't use for 2 years a 'bargain' ...

Good point.

 

[Dean]

I had to go back to my paperwork and check. We first purchased back in '03 and here's the way that it worked.

The minimum downpayment was 20%. If there were any promotional discounts offered, they would be part of the 20%. To the best of my knowledge, discounts weren't nearly as commonplace back then. Most often the only way to get any sort of discount was with the Magical Beginnings promotion, where buyers got $10 off per point in return for surrendering their first year's points back to DVC.

So back then it was 20% down with incentives (if available) included in the 20%.

Then a couple years later it became a flat 10% down with any incentives taken off of the principle.

Now, as Blahnde illustrated, it's 10% down with the incentives included in the 10%.

Interest rates are also higher than they were 5 years ago.

So, I think it's clear DVC is going out of its way to attract more borderline customers--customers who are one layoff away from having to sell their DVC in order to make the mortgage payment.



Someone here was tracking the amendments which declared SSR points into inventory. Back in the spring I remember reading that they had declared all but two floors of the final building into inventory.

In May they did put something on the member website stating that points were running low. Incentives ended in July. And there was a period in late-June / early-July when people trying to add were temporarily put on waiting lists due to lack of points matching their Use Year.

There was no specific "sold out" announcement, but perhaps the treehouses played a role in that.

Back in 1994 they had a 10% option, I'm thinking it was a 1% higher interest rate than for 20% down.

 

[jdg345]

Good point.

 

[goldilocks_63]

What happened in Plainfield - flooding? I've been out of things a bit here lately even though I live in the area - due to family illness.....

At any rate, we lived in Naperville about 12 years ago when it flooded so much water was up to my waist, cars floating away, and I had to put doggie and kitty up or else they had to swim.

Not fun - it was a mess.

SO sorry to anyone who has to go thru any of this.

GOldi

 

[bookwormde]

I am 1 who enjoys a “spirited “ debate of the pros and cons of any resort. Then I can see if any of the opinions relate to my personal preferences.

As to “selling” price that has little to do with asking price. Most of what is posted and actually sell for SSR looks like it is falling into the $75 range for full points for the “best” deals. There are lots of $80+ contracts out there but they very rarely sell.

It does beg the question of why?, for a contract with a much longer term. OKW 2057 contracts (which are a little longer) are selling in the high 80s.

For me it is that there are lots of golf club condominium communities where I live (mid Atlantic) and when I come to WDW I want something “special”. Now the tree houses, that for me is something “special”. If I could know at booking that I had a DTD view then that might be special also.

bookwormde

 

[crisi]

Well, if you consider spending upwards of $15,000 on something you can't use for 2 years a 'bargain' ...

We bought a pretty stripped contract for BWV in early 2002. We paid $63 a point for it - I think the going rate was $83 at that point. Our next trip wasn't until late 2003, by which time we had points - so it was the ideal situation for us. No dues for two years (paid by the seller) - and we got what was at the time a very inexpensive BWV contract. I think I got a bargain - it was the perfect deal for us. Had I been able to get a loaded contract, I could have rented the points out and come out ahead, but I'd have had to go through the hassle of renting the points.

My guess is that a LOT of DVC owners at all the resorts are feeling a financial pinch. In my time on the board I've seen a lot of "should I buy" posts from people who did buy - where the financial decision to buy gave me butterflies. My own bill to put gas in my and my DH's car has gone up about $100 a month in the last year, and groceries seem to have gone nuts! If someone was stretching to make DVC payments two years ago, and they haven't seen a salary increase to make up for inflation in things like gas and groceries, they are hurting. Since most DVC financing is on five year terms - and SSR has been selling about that long - its mostly SSR owners who are getting the "I have to make DVC payments" pinch - most owners at most other resorts have had long enough to own their contracts outright, so they just have to scramble for dues and vacations.

 

[dudelydude]

What happened in Plainfield - flooding? I've been out of things a bit here lately even though I live in the area - due to family illness.....

At any rate, we lived in Naperville about 12 years ago when it flooded so much water was up to my waist, cars floating away, and I had to put doggie and kitty up or else they had to swim.

Not fun - it was a mess.

SO sorry to anyone who has to go thru any of this.

GOldi

In the last 2-3 years we were hit hard by 2 storms that caused some major flooding, but only in a few key areas...certainly nothing like we saw on TV two weeks ago in areas along the Mississippi, Northwest Indiana, Galvaston, etc. I think the pp was referring more to the way Plainfield was leveled by tornados some time ago. Now that was a picture similar to Galvaston. Since then, Plainfield has been nationally recongnized for its growth rate. And I guess that other pp's comparison between Plainfield and SSR is that because he thinks SSR is junk, it was an easy way to critcize me with a shot at Plainfield. Anyway, I'm over it...since the trash talking has started (and I hope has ended), Dean and jdg and kraz and blahnde have kept the thread afloat with information that I haven't even read yet...gonna do that right now.

Have a great day,
Joe

 

[Brian430]

Yikes! Of course I have to make a joke about a town hit by a tornado.

Sorry Dudley, it really didn't even occur to me when I made the comment. To be honest I'm embarrassed to admit I don't even remember that one.

Didn't mean to make you seethe for the last couple days.

 

[Dean]

Well, if you consider spending upwards of $15,000 on something you can't use for 2 years a 'bargain' ...

It can be if one can do delayed gratification. One does need to account for the due as for a truly stripped contract it'd be easy to pay $5-6 a point over what you thought you were. I do feel the dues are the make or break issue even more than the unavailable points but partly because the prices tend to reflect the unavailable points and MOST people who buy resale pay dues on those unavailable points.

I bought my BWV points back in 2002 for $54 a point with no current points but most or all (don't recall exactly) coming about 6 months later when the UY opened and I believe we split the closing and fees. My cost was $4 a point below the floor at that time for ROFR. One of the brokers was really interested in why mine went through at that price enough to contact DVC to find out why. What I heard through the broker was DVC was in a conflict of interest situation and didn't feel they could act no matter the price (sorry don't know more specifics).

 

[florep1]

If I had $11,000 cash available at this time, the April UY would be the perfect resale for us. We already own at SSR and already have vacations planned and booked for the next two years so I don't want any more points at this time for use but at $71/point, that would put us right at 300 points, and more points for future use at the right price. April UY would simplify planning as that's the same as our other contract. We could finance it, but the rate the economy is going, we won't. Maybe next time.....

 

[Alexander]

It can be if one can do delayed gratification. One does need to account for the due as for a truly stripped contract it'd be easy to pay $5-6 a point over what you thought you were. I do feel the dues are the make or break issue even more than the unavailable points but partly because the prices tend to reflect the unavailable points and MOST people who buy resale pay dues on those unavailable points.

Yeah, it's that delayed gratification that I would have a problem with. I would want points to use now.

Your point about dues is absolutely dead-on for us. I have for many years wanted to add-on at Vero Beach. My parents live 10 minutes away and we would love to be able to book there during peak times at the 11 month mark. The cost per point is very inticing, but the dues have prevented us from going forward.

We have 2 SSR contracts and are very happy to stay there. We have used our points at every other WDW DVC resort and have enjoyed them as well. SSR is a huge resort and of course there will be rooms available there when the smaller resorts are full, it only seems to make sense to me.

Well, continue on with your fighting, I just wanted to add that we really like SSR and won't be selling to purchase AKV or BLT.

 

[Brian430]

This discussion started out posing an open question (presumably to all posters) why SSR holds a lower value in the open market. My arguments in a nutshell:

1. SSR is newer - and offers 10 more years of use - than VWL, BC, BWV. Yet not only is there less booking demand for SSR, it also commands a lower resale price tag. Minimally, the extra 10 years use would suggest that people should be willing to pay 25% more than these other resorts - not less.

2. Sorry, if you're going to build a resort of that size then DVC did owe it to all the members to make it nice enough that that SSR owners would like to stay at their home resort as much as they do the other properties. Otherwise you generate lopsided competition for the other resorts, versus a fairly balanced demand, which would be better for all of us. That lopsided demand also will lead to lower pricing for SSR, which I believe we're already seeing.

3. SSR was rushed through the planning and design phase, using the existing Disney Institute infrastructure, in order order to get more inventory on the market as soon as possible. In the process, they devalued one of the most valuable pieces of land in WDW. That's my main gripe: This chunk of land held the potential to be something truly great. Instead it's a garden variety golf condominium complex complete with busy roads and unsightly parking lots dissecting the entire resort. People shouldn't have to breathe bus fumes and cross busy roads just to have breakfast in the morning or to use the signature pool.

4. Disney sold this monstrosity on the strength of its other properties: Pointing to the Beach Club, or the Wilderness Lodge or the Boardwalk.

5. Now that other DVC properties, with true resort amenities, are available what we are seeing is more and more SSR rooms going up for sale, and people dropping the price in the process.

6. If you bought there I'm not suggesting you're a moron. I would have fallen for the same bait and switch too if I hadn't already owned elsewhere.

7. I didn't WANT to dislike SSR jut because I owned at BW. In fact I LOVE BC, VWL, (and eventually bought there). You can already see how BLT and AKL (where we also bought) are also being designed to Disney-resort standards. Trust me, I REALLY wanted to like SSR just as much. I even stayed there with nothing but high hopes. But this resort just doesn't have it.

 

[jdg345]

We bought a pretty stripped contract for BWV in early 2002. We paid $63 a point for it - I think the going rate was $83 at that point. Our next trip wasn't until late 2003, by which time we had points - so it was the ideal situation for us. No dues for two years (paid by the seller) - and we got what was at the time a very inexpensive BWV contract. I think I got a bargain - it was the perfect deal for us. Had I been able to get a loaded contract, I could have rented the points out and come out ahead, but I'd have had to go through the hassle of renting the points.

My guess is that a LOT of DVC owners at all the resorts are feeling a financial pinch. In my time on the board I've seen a lot of "should I buy" posts from people who did buy - where the financial decision to buy gave me butterflies. My own bill to put gas in my and my DH's car has gone up about $100 a month in the last year, and groceries seem to have gone nuts! If someone was stretching to make DVC payments two years ago, and they haven't seen a salary increase to make up for inflation in things like gas and groceries, they are hurting. Since most DVC financing is on five year terms - and SSR has been selling about that long - its mostly SSR owners who are getting the "I have to make DVC payments" pinch - most owners at most other resorts have had long enough to own their contracts outright, so they just have to scramble for dues and vacations.

Excellent Points! Though ... I thought most DVC Financing was 10 years?