LOVE or HATE FP+ Anyone's mind been changed ??

[JimmyV]

But regardless, average guest arrives at noon, so even the 11:30 FP might be gone-no FP at all for the average guest. 90 Min at Soarin at 2, and 70 for TT at 7.

Well, I liken this to the rat in the maze looking for the cheese. First of all, I challenge your assumption that the average guest arrives at Epcot at noon. And to be more specific, at what time does the average guest who wants to tour Future World arrive at Epcot? There could be a whole bunch of people who arrive at Epcot at 2:00 or later who only want to go to WS. This skews the "average arrival time" number. A lot. I would submit that the average guest who wants to tour FW arrives much earlier than noon.

But back to the rat in the maze. Assume that you are right and that the average guest arrives at noon and gets no FPs. (And I really don't know upon what basis you make that assertion if you always go at Christmas. The number of times that I got a TT FP after lunch dwarfs the number of times that I did not). In any event, if one arrives at noon and gets shut out, how many times do they have to do that before they realize that this path through the maze nets you no cheese? Once? Twice tops? If you aren't getting any cheese, you change your path. The "average guest", assuming that they are capable of learning, will arrive earlier next time and get the cheese.

I have been around these boards a long time. The number of threads that I can recall reading that started out with: "I Hate Fast Pass. I have NEVER been able to get one at Epcot" is a round number........0.

 

[jade1]

Well, I liken this to the rat in the maze looking for the cheese. First of all, I challenge your assumption that the average guest arrives at Epcot at noon. And to be more specific, at what time does the average guest who wants to tour Future World arrive at Epcot? There could be a whole bunch of people who arrive at Epcot at 2:00 or later who only want to go to WS. This skews the "average arrival time" number. A lot. I would submit that the average guest who wants to tour FW arrives much earlier than noon.

But back to the rat in the maze. Assume that you are right and that the average guest arrives at noon and gets no FPs. (And I really don't know upon what basis you make that assertion if you always go at Christmas. The number of times that I got a TT FP after lunch dwarfs the number of times that I did not). In any event, if one arrives at noon and gets shut out, how many times do they have to do that before they realize that this path through the maze nets you no cheese? Once? Twice tops? If you aren't getting any cheese, you change your path. The "average guest", assuming that they are capable of learning, will arrive earlier next time and get the cheese.

So for 10 years nobody learned?

The point is if everyone was as smart as a rat-the system would have failed by 10AM.

 

[jade1]

I have been around these boards a long time. The number of threads that I can recall reading that started out with: "I Hate Fast Pass. I have NEVER been able to get one at Epcot" is a round number........0.

Also-you are arguing for "one" FP now, well that can now be FP+ anyway. And again-EPCOT needs expansion no doubt.

 

[JimmyV]

The point is if everyone was as smart as a rat-the system would have failed by 10AM.

Ahhhh. But it didn't fail by 10:00. And as noted above, prior to the implementation of FP+, the cry: "I have NEVER been able to get a FP at Epcot" was never heard. FP availability at Epcot was never a big issue on this Board. Ever. The story you tell suggests that this Board should have been eaten up with threads complaining about how badly Fast Pass performed at Epcot. People were getting shut out every day. Fast Passes were gone by 10:00 every day. Show me those threads.

 

[Laketravis]

Sounds like the engines are starting to rev up again.

I think it's great that with FP+ you can literally walk onto/into three attractions regardless of the crowd conditions in the park at the times you have pre-selected days in advance. Jade, you've shown numerous times how great that worked on Christmas and New Years.

It's what happens when one tries to schedule those FP's, when they try to schedule them, and what happens in the parks after they've used those 3 FP's that is the subject of endless debate. It's why I'm also going to use the benefit you've enjoyed as the exclusive focus of my park time on my visit starting (gulp!) next Friday. Less time in the park getting more done by using the 3 FP's, watching a parade and fireworks all in the span of about three hours. Because if I stay longer than that my thoughts are I start getting less done per hour because of the SB lines I would have to wait in, and 5 experiences in 3 hours sounds like a better deal to me than, say, 8 experiences in 6 hours.



.

 

[Laketravis]

Also-you are arguing for "one" FP now, well that can now be FP+ anyway. And again-EPCOT needs expansion no doubt.

As does HS, no doubt. Now we're talking about half the parks. If you add two others from another park system you can reduce the problematic parks down to one third.


.

 

[JimmyV]

Also-you are arguing for "one" FP now, well that can now be FP+ anyway. And again-EPCOT needs expansion no doubt.

You are the one who posted above that the average guest arriving at noon got none. That is why I used "one". It has never been my contention that all FPs were gone by noon on non-Christmas week days. That may have been your experience. But you have to admit that your experiences are atypical.

 

[jade1]

Ahhhh. But it didn't fail by 10:00. And as noted above, prior to the implementation of FP+, the cry: "I have NEVER been able to get a FP at Epcot" was never heard. FP availability at Epcot was never a big issue on this Board. Ever. The story you tell suggests that this Board should have been eaten up with threads complaining about how badly Fast Pass performed at Epcot. People were getting shut out every day. Fast Passes were gone by 10:00 every day. Show me those threads.

I think you missed the point, if all 20,000 guests showed up at RD (which is impossible) because that's what they "learned" they need to do, the system would have failed.

 

[jade1]

You are the one who posted above that the average guest arriving at noon got none. That is why I used "one". It has never been my contention that all FPs were gone by noon on non-Christmas week days. That may have been your experience. But you have to admit that your experiences are atypical.

Actually you posted that at 11:30 the return was already 7PM to 8PM-so almost all disbursed, meaning even arriving at 11AM you would be down to one FP, which you now can reserve anyway.

 

[Laketravis]

Ahhhh. But it didn't fail by 10:00. And as noted above, prior to the implementation of FP+, the cry: "I have NEVER been able to get a FP at Epcot" was never heard. FP availability at Epcot was never a big issue on this Board. Ever. The story you tell suggests that this Board should have been eaten up with threads complaining about how badly Fast Pass performed at Epcot. People were getting shut out every day. Fast Passes were gone by 10:00 every day. Show me those threads.

Now that you mention it, the only threads I remember were the ones discussing how to ride Toy Story AND get an FP for it. Seldom if ever do I remember a thread expounding on chronic and complete unavailability - aside from an occasional discussion as to when FP's might run out for TSMM, Test Track, and Soarin later in the same day, the threads seemed to be more about return times and in what order to get FP's.


.

 

[jade1]

Mostly its become very obvious how "advanced" this sytem is when 90% of guests can ride with no wait. They just need to increase capacity (or dramatically raise prices or some combination of both) to increase the amount guests can reserve.

 

[jade1]

Now that you mention it, the only threads I remember were the ones discussing how to ride Toy Story AND get an FP for it. Seldom if ever do I remember a thread expounding on chronic and complete unavailability - the threads seemed to be more about return times, when FP's would run out later in the day for a small number of attractions, and in what order to get FP's.


.

That could be true-but not XMAS week.

And furthermore-it sounds like there is usually availability these days with TT and even Soarin on short notice with FP+, so that would make sense.

 

[Laketravis]

Mostly its become very obvious how "advanced" this sytem is when 90% of guests can ride with no wait. They just need to increase capacity (or dramatically raise prices or some combination of both) to increase the amount guests can reserve.

 

[Laketravis]

That could be true-but not XMAS week.

And furthermore-it sounds like there is usually availability these days with TT and even Soarin on short notice with FP+, so that would make sense.

I never had an issue getting an FP on the same day for either one of those at 10am. When we tried with FP+ in November/December they were always gone by 11am, and on several days when we tried with a completely different set of MB's that didn't have our 3 FP's for the day on them at 10am there were no FP's available for either of those.


.

 

[jade1]

I never had an issue getting an FP on the same day for either one of those at 11am. When we tried with FP+ in November/December they were always gone by 11am.

In fact, several days we tried with a completely different set of MB's that didn't have our 3 FP's for the day on them and even at 10am there were no FP's available for either of those.


.

I meant they are not gone at 60 days, much less 30. I would never expect them to be running the same as FP- in conjunction with FP+, would be nice though.

They could with enough expansion though.

 

[wisblue]

You mean like this?

A 3D ride with moving vehicles and large video screens in a massive theater

Using a simulator technology like this?

Simulator Structure

No, when I saw that description of the Avatar ride I was picturing something much less grand than that.

Like a 52 " TV screen with 3D capability that I could watch from my home theater while sitting in a rocker (moving) recliner.

 

[JimmyV]

No, when I saw that description of the Avatar ride I was picturing something much less grand than that.

Like a 52 " TV screen with 3D capability that I could watch from my home theater while sitting in a rocker (moving) recliner.

That will be the NextNextGen. You stay at home and Disney brings the attraction to you "on demand" on your own TV. You can plan ahead up to 60 days. But if you take advantage of the Avatar ride from the comfort of your own home, every other room in your home that is a "Tier 1" will be off limits to you that day!

 

[JimmyV]

That could be true-but not XMAS week.

I think everyone understands that. By page 71, everyone here should be in agreement that FP+ is a better system for people during that week. You benefit immensely from FP+. FP- was a failure for your. I don't know that it can be said any more clearly than that. But let's not dig FP-'s grave with the Christmas shovel. On October 5 of any given year, people (who wanted them) were getting FPs for all Tier 1 attractions. Yes, we know that this was because the system was underused. But to the person who was using the system, it matters little that others didn't or chose not to. To the person using the system, FP- was retired due to its potential tendency to fail, well before it hit the point of actual failure. And replaced with a system that allows for more thorough daily planning and guaranteed access to a fewer number of total FPs. Benefits that come at costs. A tremendous change for some. A net loss for others.

 

[Shaden]

I think everyone understands that. By page 71, everyone here should be in agreement that FP+ is a better system for people during that week. You benefit immensely from FP+. FP- was a failure for your. I don't know that it can be said any more clearly than that. But let's not dig FP-'s grave with the Christmas shovel. On October 5 of any given year, people (who wanted them) were getting FPs for all Tier 1 attractions. Yes, we know that this was because the system was underused. But to the person who was using the system, it matters little that others didn't or chose not to. To the person using the system, FP- was retired due to its potential tendency to fail, well before it hit the point of actual failure. And replaced with a system that allows for more thorough daily planning and guaranteed access to a fewer number of total FPs. Benefits that come at costs. A tremendous change for some. A net loss for others.

This this THIS ! Its very much like the TSMM argument: "We hard a hard time getting TSMM before FP+, now its easier, therefore FP+ is way better". Its just a terrible argument to pick a specific example where one system clearly works better and then say therefore the system is better, period.

One of the things I find most interesting is that proponents of FP+ when faced with the downsides: Increased preplanning, increased SB wait times, limited access to FPs, potentially getting fewer rides in, especially later in the day, etc etc ... constantly say "Its ok, just RD and you can get a ton done still!" or "Go during a less busy time of year, you will get lots done" Great, but then they don't think this way when it comes to FP- "I couldn't get a FP- for TSMM by showing up at the parks during Christmas at 4pm." No, no you couldn't, but you could have gone to RD or gone at a less busy time of year, just like you tell people who are pointing to the downsides of FP+

 

[wisblue]

The whole Christmas week crowd thing makes everything unique. But look at it in smaller ride numbers on a more "typical" day.

• Guest arrives at Epcot at 9:30 and has a FP+ for Soarin' from 9:45-10:45.
• Guest uses FP and by-passes a 75 minute wait.
• Guest goes to Test Track and rides SB with a 90 minute wait.

That guest got the benefit of bypassing the Soarin' line, and has the benefit of planning the rest of their day with military precision, except for the 100 minutes it took them to wait in line and then ride Test Track. They know exactly when they can leave the park, when they can schedule their BBB appointment, and when they can have lunch and dinner. These are all great benefits that come with FP+.

Alternatively....

• Guest arrives at Epcot at 9:30 and pulls a FP- for Soarin'. The Guest will know the return time because the machine will tell them. But for purposes of this discussion, you and I don't know. Let's assume it is 2:00-3:00 p.m.
• Guest does other stuff for 2 hours
• At 11:30, Guest becomes eligible for another FP and pulls one for Test Track. Again, the Guest will know the return time because the machine will tell them. But for purposes of this discussion, you and I don't know. Let's assume it is 7:00-8:00 p.m.
• Guest goes off and does more stuff, waiting for the 2:00 return time at Soarin'.

The Guest has a certain "randomness" to their day. They cannot plan as much in advance. Once they have their FPs in hand, they can pretty much plot out the day. And if they booked an ADR in advance for dinner at 6:15, there is great chance that this will be doable. They lose the ability to plan with military precision. But what they gained was the ability to bypass both the 90 minute line at Soarin' at 2:00 and the 70 minute line at Test Track at 7:00.

Some people prefer the military precision of scenario #1.
Some people prefer the double-bypass of the lines in scenario #2.
Neither preference is "right" or "wrong". And explains why this debate has been waged for 70+ pages.

But by going at Christmas, scenario #2 might not even be a viable option for you, as the second FP pulled at 11:30 might not exist. If this has been your experience, then you would choose scenario #1 every time. About 350 days a year though, scenario #2 was a very viable option.

Once again, you have listed two alternatives as if those are the only two, and presented the FP+ option in the most negative way imaginable, including a 100 minute standby wait and "military precision" for the rest of the day.

How about this option:

(1) Arrive at Epcot at 8:45 with a FP for Soarin with a return time of 9:45-10:45. When the gates open, go directly to Test Track and ride standby with a wait closer to 10 minutes, but certainly a lot less than 100. After TT, go to MS where the standby line is likely in the 10-20 minute range. Then go to Soarin and, if it isn't 9:45 yet, take a quick ride on LWTL (with a minimal wait) before using that FP. Then move on to the rest of the day with 2 other FPs still in hand

or

(2) How about what we did on a Friday in November (crowd level 5). Enter at park opening and ride Soarin, Test Track (single rider), Mission Space Orange, Spaceship Earth, Nemo, and Figment, all by a little after 11 AM without using a FP. Then we have the rest of the day to do what we want before using our 3 FPs at a different park. At 11 AM we still have 3 FPs in hand for later in the day (maybe at another park) and no more restrictions (and I would argue fewer restrictions) than you have with your 2 FPs for 2 PM and 8 PM.

The suggestion that with FP+ someone can only ride both TT and Soarin by waiting in a wait of over an hour for one of them is blatantly false.