LOVE or HATE FP+ Anyone's mind been changed ??

[MrInfinity]

This this THIS ! Its very much like the TSMM argument: "We hard a hard time getting TSMM before FP+, now its easier, therefore FP+ is way better". Its just a terrible argument to pick a specific example where one system clearly works better and then say therefore the system is better, period.

One of the things I find most interesting is that proponents of FP+ when faced with the downsides: Increased preplanning, increased SB wait times, limited access to FPs, potentially getting fewer rides in, especially later in the day, etc etc ... constantly say "Its ok, just RD and you can get a ton done still!" or "Go during a less busy time of year, you will get lots done" Great, but then they don't think this way when it comes to FP- "I couldn't get a FP- for TSMM by showing up at the parks during Christmas at 4pm." No, no you couldn't, but you could have gone to RD or gone at a less busy time of year, just like you tell people who are pointing to the downsides of FP+

Still making the same old arguments, huh. Reducing the "FP+ works" argument to being specific to the time of year, or rope drop, or TSMM. Those are great, but the overall benefit to FP+, is that I simply get on more rides, now, with shorter waits, and get more done in a day, largely due to the change from FP- to FP+. I do this with less walking around, more certainty, have more time w my family, and can plan wonderful days that before would have been completely impossible.

Some people get so bold as to say things like "anything you can do with FP+ I could do with FP-" until people show what they can do with FP+, and then... there is no response. Oh... yeah... I guess I couldn't really do all that. I'm not proposing specific things related to only TSMM. I've shown several rather typical days in the life of a touring family. FP+ does change who gets an edge. I'm okay w that, I'll just try to be one of those who do.

It's not perfect, of course. There are some definite drawbacks, particularly if you simply do not like to plan ahead, or are otherwise unwilling or unable to commit to plans in advance. But overall, it's been a huge improvement over what was really an outdated paper-based system. Not just in the conservation and profit for Disney, but in my actual experience. Does FP+ benefit the resort guest who books a trip 6 mo in advance over the local who goes that weekend? Of course. But Disney has every incentive to make it this way, leveraging their rides as perks to sell rooms.

Interesting point of conversation:

Shaden: "We hard a hard time getting TSMM before FP+, now its easier, therefore FP+ is way better". Its just a terrible argument to pick a specific example where one system clearly works better. So... what you're saying is in the case of TSMM you believe FP+ "clearly works better"? It's interesting because so many FP- advocates claim TSMM worked way better under FP-. This one example is spun every which way.

Think of all the theoretical exercises you want. In practice, I can get on as much as I did before. And I do it more efficiently, more relaxed, and have more family time. If the system in place lends itself to being there early and pulling tickets, I'll go early and pull tickets. If the system lends itself to staying up till midnight instead, I'll stay up and book some rides. It's not a big deal. The park capacities are about unchanged, attendance is a little up, and there are some new rides. So really it's all about just finding ways to be a step ahead of the crowd, which is what we always did under FP-, and we'll continue to do with FP+.

 

[cakebaker]

One of the things I find most interesting is that proponents of FP+ when faced with the downsides: Increased preplanning, increased SB wait times, limited access to FPs, potentially getting fewer rides in, especially later in the day, etc etc ... constantly say "Its ok, just RD and you can get a ton done still!" or "Go during a less busy time of year, you will get lots done" Great, but then they don't think this way when it comes to FP- "I couldn't get a FP- for TSMM by showing up at the parks during Christmas at 4pm." No, no you couldn't, but you could have gone to RD or gone at a less busy time of year, just like you tell people who are pointing to the downsides of FP+

Not true at all. It's exactly what we had to do for years- work around the limitations of paper fp. What I say is, we did it and survived, so can you.

There are negatives to any system. FP+ solved a serious problem of some guests getting the lions share of riding on the popular rides. A lot of people don't care that others were shut out. Fair enough, it's not their problem. But it is Disney's and they fixed it. There are a lot of other positives, but just spreading the wealth on rides is one of the best results in my opinion.

 

[jade1]

Once again, you have listed two alternatives as if those are the only two, and presented the FP+ option in the most negative way imaginable, including a 100 minute standby wait and "military precision" for the rest of the day.

How about this option:

(1) Arrive at Epcot at 8:45 with a FP for Soarin with a return time of 9:45-10:45. When the gates open, go directly to Test Track and ride standby with a wait closer to 10 minutes, but certainly a lot less than 100. After TT, go to MS where the standby line is likely in the 10-20 minute range. Then go to Soarin and, if it isn't 9:45 yet, take a quick ride on LWTL (with a minimal wait) before using that FP. Then move on to the rest of the day with 2 other FPs still in hand

or

(2) How about what we did on a Friday in November (crowd level 5). Enter at park opening and ride Soarin, Test Track (single rider), Mission Space Orange, Spaceship Earth, Nemo, and Figment, all by a little after 11 AM without using a FP. Then we have the rest of the day to do what we want before using our 3 FPs at a different park. At 11 AM we still have 3 FPs in hand for later in the day (maybe at another park) and no more restrictions (and I would argue fewer restrictions) than you have with your 2 FPs for 2 PM and 8 PM.

The suggestion that with FP+ someone can only ride both TT and Soarin by waiting in a wait of over an hour for one of them is blatantly false.

Excellent strategy for EPCOT.

 

[Hokie2000]

This this THIS ! Its very much like the TSMM argument: "We hard a hard time getting TSMM before FP+, now its easier, therefore FP+ is way better". Its just a terrible argument to pick a specific example where one system clearly works better and then say therefore the system is better, period.

One of the things I find most interesting is that proponents of FP+ when faced with the downsides: Increased preplanning, increased SB wait times, limited access to FPs, potentially getting fewer rides in, especially later in the day, etc etc ... constantly say "Its ok, just RD and you can get a ton done still!" or "Go during a less busy time of year, you will get lots done" Great, but then they don't think this way when it comes to FP- "I couldn't get a FP- for TSMM by showing up at the parks during Christmas at 4pm." No, no you couldn't, but you could have gone to RD or gone at a less busy time of year, just like you tell people who are pointing to the downsides of FP+

Some do not mind the downsides or consider the positives to outweigh the negatives. Where is the problem in that? And, if a person states that they would like to visit WDW but have issues/problems/Hulk rage when considering these downsides, why is it improper to suggest RD to alleviate them?

Are the people who like FP+ a disappointment somehow? Like if we were a united front against FP+ the incessant sound of our keyboards' angry tapping would wake Disney up and restore the wonders of FP-? Sorry to be a thorn in one's side, but I like FP+, it works better for me, and I hope to never return to FP-.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The whole Christmas week crowd thing makes everything unique. But look at it in smaller ride numbers on a more "typical" day.

• Guest arrives at Epcot at 9:30 and has a FP+ for Soarin' from 9:45-10:45.
• Guest uses FP and by-passes a 75 minute wait.
• Guest goes to Test Track and rides SB with a 90 minute wait.

That guest got the benefit of bypassing the Soarin' line, and has the benefit of planning the rest of their day with military precision, except for the 100 minutes it took them to wait in line and then ride Test Track. They know exactly when they can leave the park, when they can schedule their BBB appointment, and when they can have lunch and dinner. These are all great benefits that come with FP+.

Alternatively....

• Guest arrives at Epcot at 9:30 and pulls a FP- for Soarin'. The Guest will know the return time because the machine will tell them. But for purposes of this discussion, you and I don't know. Let's assume it is 2:00-3:00 p.m.
• Guest does other stuff for 2 hours
• At 11:30, Guest becomes eligible for another FP and pulls one for Test Track. Again, the Guest will know the return time because the machine will tell them. But for purposes of this discussion, you and I don't know. Let's assume it is 7:00-8:00 p.m.
• Guest goes off and does more stuff, waiting for the 2:00 return time at Soarin'.

The Guest has a certain "randomness" to their day. They cannot plan as much in advance. Once they have their FPs in hand, they can pretty much plot out the day. And if they booked an ADR in advance for dinner at 6:15, there is great chance that this will be doable. They lose the ability to plan with military precision. But what they gained was the ability to bypass both the 90 minute line at Soarin' at 2:00 and the 70 minute line at Test Track at 7:00.

Some people prefer the military precision of scenario #1.
Some people prefer the double-bypass of the lines in scenario #2.
Neither preference is "right" or "wrong". And explains why this debate has been waged for 70+ pages.

But by going at Christmas, scenario #2 might not even be a viable option for you, as the second FP pulled at 11:30 might not exist. If this has been your experience, then you would choose scenario #1 every time. About 350 days a year though, scenario #2 was a very viable option.

You are assuming a binary circumstance.

We arrived at noon with FP+. Did not have one for TT. Hit it after our evening ADR. Less than a 45 minute wait. (I think MDE showed 30-35 but don't recall).

100 minute waits are not the only option.


I understand you are trying to suggest what would happen at a peak time.

There are many ways to organize a day that would avoid the scenario you are suggesting as the only choice.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Well, I liken this to the rat in the maze looking for the cheese. First of all, I challenge your assumption that the average guest arrives at Epcot at noon. And to be more specific, at what time does the average guest who wants to tour Future World arrive at Epcot? There could be a whole bunch of people who arrive at Epcot at 2:00 or later who only want to go to WS. This skews the "average arrival time" number. A lot. I would submit that the average guest who wants to tour FW arrives much earlier than noon.

But back to the rat in the maze. Assume that you are right and that the average guest arrives at noon and gets no FPs. (And I really don't know upon what basis you make that assertion if you always go at Christmas. The number of times that I got a TT FP after lunch dwarfs the number of times that I did not). In any event, if one arrives at noon and gets shut out, how many times do they have to do that before they realize that this path through the maze nets you no cheese? Once? Twice tops? If you aren't getting any cheese, you change your path. The "average guest", assuming that they are capable of learning, will arrive earlier next time and get the cheese.

I have been around these boards a long time. The number of threads that I can recall reading that started out with: "I Hate Fast Pass. I have NEVER been able to get one at Epcot" is a round number........0.

Not sure about the average guest, but it has been my experience that morning seems quite low volume with crowds spiking in the afternoon. If the average guest is arriving before noon, they are very good at playing hide and seek.

And you know what is funny? An equal number of people have been able to claim the same of FP+. Once you put aside the hyperbole.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

This this THIS ! Its very much like the TSMM argument: "We hard a hard time getting TSMM before FP+, now its easier, therefore FP+ is way better". Its just a terrible argument to pick a specific example where one system clearly works better and then say therefore the system is better, period.

One of the things I find most interesting is that proponents of FP+ when faced with the downsides: Increased preplanning, increased SB wait times, limited access to FPs, potentially getting fewer rides in, especially later in the day, etc etc ... constantly say "Its ok, just RD and you can get a ton done still!" or "Go during a less busy time of year, you will get lots done" Great, but then they don't think this way when it comes to FP- "I couldn't get a FP- for TSMM by showing up at the parks during Christmas at 4pm." No, no you couldn't, but you could have gone to RD or gone at a less busy time of year, just like you tell people who are pointing to the downsides of FP+

Me me me!

RD has been my strategy for ages. No FP, FP-, FP+. So yeah, I do think that way which is why I don't get upset if what I want is not available in FP format at the time I had hope to grab that FP be it 60 or 30 days, a week or a day, rope drop or 3pm.

 

[JimmyV]

Once again, you have listed two alternatives as if those are the only two, and presented the FP+ option in the most negative way imaginable, including a 100 minute standby wait and "military precision" for the rest of the day.

How about this option:

(1) Arrive at Epcot at 8:45 with a FP for Soarin with a return time of 9:45-10:45. When the gates open, go directly to Test Track and ride standby with a wait closer to 10 minutes, but certainly a lot less than 100. After TT, go to MS where the standby line is likely in the 10-20 minute range. Then go to Soarin and, if it isn't 9:45 yet, take a quick ride on LWTL (with a minimal wait) before using that FP. Then move on to the rest of the day with 2 other FPs still in hand

That's what I would do. But whenever someone makes the "Arrive before the park opens" argument, a por-FP+ person chimes in and says either:
I don't like to arrive at RD; or
FP+ means that I don't have to arrive at RD.

So yes, I intentionally uses one, single, possible scenario that does not entail RD because some people simply don't want to arrive then. This goes in endless circles. Use a scenario with RD and then get told that FP+ eliminates the need to arrive then. Use a scenario that does not entail RD and get told that you should have used RD. Pick one.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That's what I would do. But whenever someone makes the "Arrive before the park opens" argument, a por-FP+ person chimes in and says either:
I don't like to arrive at RD; or
FP+ means that I don't have to arrive at RD.

So yes, I intentionally uses one, single, possible scenario that does not entail RD because some people simply don't want to arrive then. This goes in endless circles. Use a scenario with RD and then get told that FP+ eliminates the need to arrive then. Use a scenario that does not entail RD and get told that you should have used RD. Pick one.

They don't have to arrive at rope drop and can still avoid your specific binary scenario.

We did.

 

[JimmyV]

There are many ways to organize a day that would avoid the scenario you are suggesting as the only choice.

Of course. Nowhere did I suggest that this was the only scenario. Again, if one is arguing that they don't get to the park at RD, then a non-RD scenario has to be considered, no? And yes, there are times when the SB line for the second headliner will be 45 minutes instead of 90 minutes. So the wait is 45 minutes instead of 5 with a FP-. The benefit shrinks, but does not evaporate.

 

[JimmyV]

They don't have to arrive at rope drop and can still avoid your specific binary scenario.

We did.

No. You did not avoid the scenario that I suggested. You simply got a different wait time. 45 minutes instead of 90. By your logic, anyone who got an 89 minute wait time instead of 90 "avoided" my scenario. Or 92 instead of 90. Or 65 instead of 90. Or 45 instead of 90. Fill in whatever numbers you want. Bottom line. FP- had the potential to run its course. But it hadn't yet. Not by a long shot. Indeed, you are making the argument for me that under FP-, people could and did arrive after RD and still get FPs for both rides quite easily. So FP+ "corrected" a problem that existed on paper, (pardon the pun) but had not yet metastasized.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Of course. Nowhere did I suggest that this was the only scenario. Again, if one is arguing that they don't get to the park at RD, then a non-RD scenario has to be considered, no? And yes, there are times when the SB line for the second headliner will be 45 minutes instead of 90 minutes. So the wait is 45 minutes instead of 5 with a FP-. The benefit shrinks, but does not evaporate.

What you are missing is that RD isn't the antidote to all situations. It is simply one antidote for the various issues folks want to present as to why FP+ is just always wrong.

If one keeps moving the goal posts--then ultimately that limits the solutions

Saying that 100 minutes is what will happen, ignores other solutions.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No. You did not avoid the scenario that I suggested. You simply got a different wait time. 45 minutes instead of 90. By your logic, anyone who got an 89 minute wait time instead of 90 "avoided" my scenario. Or 92 instead of 90. Or 65 instead of 90. Or 45 instead of 90. Fill in whatever numbers you want. Bottom line. FP- had the potential to run its course. But it hadn't yet. Not by a long shot. Indeed, you are making the argument for me that under FP-, people could and did arrive after RD and still get FPs for both rides quite easily. So FP+ "corrected" a problem that existed on paper, (pardon the pun) but had not yet metastasized.

Your scenario was 100 minutes of time dedicated to one attraction. So yes, we did avoid that completely. By a minimum of 50%.

Moving the goal posts does not help your position.

ETA: also specific to Epcot, was the detours to go and obtain those fast pass that in and of itself also took up time. You have completely ignored that fact. It certainly was not zero minutes.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Of course. Nowhere did I suggest that this was the only scenario. Again, if one is arguing that they don't get to the park at RD, then a non-RD scenario has to be considered, no? And yes, there are times when the SB line for the second headliner will be 45 minutes instead of 90 minutes. So the wait is 45 minutes instead of 5 with a FP-. The benefit shrinks, but does not evaporate.

Your scenario also has the TT pas occurring during my ADR. (7-8pm) and completely useless to me.

 

[JimmyV]

Your scenario also has the TT pas occurring during my ADR. (7-8pm) and completely useless to me.

That was covered under post #1399. We've been through this, and it is odd why you folks have such a hard time accepting the praise that I am willing to heap on FP+. It allows for more advance planning. It allows you to book BBB and not feel like you are behind the curve, line-wise. It allows you to book a character breakfast and not have to worry about missing out on TSMM. It allows you to book your ADRs that are exclusive of your FP times. All good things. Can I get any credit for agreeing on these points? So why is it so hard to understand that there are some people who would trade all of that for the ability to get FPs for TSMM, ToT and RnR all in the same day? You don't want to make that trade. Fine. Others do. You get all the benefits that I set out above. And what you can't get is FPs for the "big two" at Epcot. Are there strategies for further line avoidance? Sure. Remember what I have said, oh...2,000 times now? RD is the antidote to the limitations of FP+. But when other posters are making arguments about how RD is not in the cards for them, then we have to address this point too.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That was covered under post #1399. We've been through this, and it is odd why you folks have such a hard time accepting the praise that I am willing to heap on FP+. It allows for more advance planning. It allows you to book BBB and not feel like you are behind the curve, line-wise. It allows you to book a character breakfast and not have to worry about missing out on TSMM. It allows you to book your ADRs that are exclusive of your FP times. All good things. Can I get any credit for agreeing on these points? So why is it so hard to understand that there are some people who would trade all of that for the ability to get FPs for TSMM, ToT and RnR all in the same day? You don't want to make that trade. Fine. Others do. You get all the benefits that I set out above. And what you can't get is FPs for the "big two" at Epcot. Are there strategies for further line avoidance? Sure. Remember what I have said, oh...2,000 times now? RD is the antidote to the limitations of FP+. But when other posters are making arguments about how RD is not in the cards for them, then we have to address this point too.

Sure. I was not aware you expected that. Sure--it allows all that fabulous stuff.

I understand there are people who want to trade all of that. And I am sorry that their vacations are ruined if that is the basis of whether they enjoy their trip. But that ship has sailed and the steady drumbeat demanding it, arguing for it, debating on why it was better -- gets you nowhere. But it has been acknowledged repeatedly at various points.

RD is AN antidote. It is not the ONLY antidote. Why is that so difficult to understand?

And RD is not always on our cards either. We have done EPCOT twice, DHS once, and MK twice without Rope drop. All of which could be successfully addressed.

But the problem becomes when folks want to have their cake and eat it, too. Not everyone will be made happy. But the large majority will adapt as needed for their particular circumstance.

As I have stated--I have gone quite a bit during all 3 situations where fast pass did not exist at all, paper fast pass and now Fast pass plus. Amazing that joy could be found in all of those circumstances. But folks are acting like dropping fast pass is the end of the world. It is merely a first world problem and nothing more.

 

[cakebaker]

"And what you can't get is FPs for the "big two" at Epcot."

Just let me poke my head in for a second.... So you think all those advantages are worth tossing just to get those 2 with fp+ in the same day when you can avoid the lines using other methods?

There is more than just rope drop to alleviate the problem, but yes, there will be some guests whose demands are such that absolutely nothing works for them. No rope drop, no multiple visits to the same park. No EMH evening, no late night and I'm really sorry, but not really, they're going to have to stand in line. Because they're going to have to do what everyone else had to do under paper fp who had stringent demands.

Basically, I don't get what your point is. That FP+ will not work for every guest who walks thru the gates? Ok, I'd concede that.

But what I'd also say, is that if the success of one's trip or one's enjoyment of WDW is destroyed by the fact that they have to alter their touring style somewhat to adapt to the change then I'd say they need to change vacation destinations because it is what it is and all the griping in the world isn't going to change it. I understand a few weeks, maybe even a few months- but it's going on years now- time to realize things have changed.

 

[JimmyV]

I understand there are people who want to trade all of that. And I am sorry that their vacations are ruined if that is the basis of whether they enjoy their trip.

Then why continue in the "I'm right and you're wrong" vein? Why not just accept the fact that:

• There really are people who do not like the new system;
• Their reasons are valid, to them; and
• Their vacations have been negatively impacted.

Why so many calories burned trying to convince those folks that their entire thought process is wrong?

 

[JimmyV]

Basically, I don't get what your point is. That FP+ will not work for every guest who walks thru the gates? Ok, I'd concede that.

Boom! You do understand my point. That is it in a nutshell. Nothing more. Nothing less. And as I just posted in response to LLP, why so much effort expended by some trying to convince people otherwise? There are an awful lot of posts here that try to make the point that if you feel that FP+ is not working for you, then you are simply wrong, or don't know what you are doing. But once one makes the concession that you have just made, there is peace and harmony in the world. And while I am at it, everything I just said works in reverse as well.

 

[estherhead]

I've been writing on Disboards and a blog for many many years now and though everything has changed absolutely nothing has changed. You can have a great time at Disney World by timing your days when the crowds aren't there. This will ALWAYS be true. Nothing Disney does will change it. If you want to get up in a relaxed manner and get to the park at 11:00 am, eat lunch at noon, have a 2 hour ADR at 6:00, view the fireworks and leave the park after the fireworks then you will get your 3 fp+ and long lines for everything else. That truly and honestly will never change. Epcot needs more rides. DHS needs more rides. And FP+ emphasizes this fact. When they get new rides built then I believe tiering will go away and FP+ will be a great system. In the mean time I like FP+ And I don't mind getting up early for my Future World day. Especially because I don't have much need for rope drop at MK anymore and I LOVE that.