Lookout Cay long pier.

[John VN]

I mean sure, you reduce the width of the pier by 25% then I suppose, yeah, it's 25% less impactful. Okay, but 25% of...what? Like just how impactful IS 25%? What does that actually mean? How do we measure impact? It's not like we can pull out a yardstick and measure the impact of a structure on the environment.

And with a bit more creative engineering, could it have been slightly wider but still had a similar impact? I find the whole thing baffling, but I suppose I'm not an engineer so I should probably shut up about it. It just seems to be that Disney said, "welp, can't be done! Oh well!"

Why do hippopotamus have short stubby legs? Because volume goes up by the cube, whereas cross section by the area , the impact is not linear but goes up quicker with volume. I am amazed that people think they are smarter than Disney engineers. Plus the impact is not just the columns but on sunlight, coral rely on algae which relies on sunlight.

Disney engineers are not dumb, the issues are multifactorial and more complex than most people here seem to acknowledge or understand.

Thinking that building on the same support column footprint but using reinforced concrete cantilever cross member trusses could have provided a pier 10'+ wider without additional seabed environmental impact. insert a possible -- D'oh!

p.s. - I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once

 

[DCLMP]

I think the point was made earlier that in WDW there are plenty of places to stop and rest or have some diversion along the way such as rides, entertainment, restaurants, drinks, snacks, shopping, etc. Guests are still having fun while walking.

I have no problem myself doing this walk. I don’t have a desk job and a typical day at work is 8000+ steps but I can be compassionate for those who would have a hard time, for whatever reason.

That's why DCL has accommodations for people that can't walk. If you need entertainment, a snack or a diversion to walk for 10 minutes than choose a different vacation. If the you can't handle the heat cruise in the Winter. The complaining is just over the top ridiculous at this point.

 

[Lucien Franciosa]

Thinking that building on the same support column footprint but using reinforced concrete cantilever cross member trusses could have provided a pier 10'+ wider without additional seabed environmental impact. insert a possible -- D'oh!

p.s. - I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once

You lost me on the holiday in express reference, but a cantilever tress design extends the reach but not on the same footprint, it enlarges the footprint. You haven’t solved the problem just consolidated it. D’oh.

 

[kiford]

I mean sure, you reduce the width of the pier by 25% then I suppose, yeah, it's 25% less impactful. Okay, but 25% of...what? Like just how impactful IS 25%? What does that actually mean? How do we measure impact? It's not like we can pull out a yardstick and measure the impact of a structure on the environment.

A reduction of 25% in width doesn't necessarily correlate exactly with a 25% reduction in impact. It could be that 10% width reduction resulted in 25% less impact or to achieve 25% less impact (which might have been a jurisdictional requirement) the reduction may have needed to be more than 25% less width.

Impact is measured through environmental impact assessments which involve a multitude of specialities including engineers, biologists, hydrogeologists, ecologists, planners, architects, etc. The "25% reduction" is a simplifcation of a complex review of options, direct and predicted potential impacts, and redesigns based on expertise, experience, and historical data. The report is likely hundreds of pages long and the review probably took at least a couple of years. Such assessments are a pretty typical requirement in many jurisdictions around the world when major infrastructure projects are contemplated and the more sensitive the environment, the more requirements there are and the more constraints they are required to incorporate.

 

[Lucien Franciosa]

It's not a question of being smarter, it is a question of taking marketing speak as gospel

? People are making blanket statements like this with zero details that make the assertions credible. In almost every comment I make (okay sometimes i am being silly but say so) it’s after researching and I give my reasoning with concrete (pun intended) laws of physics, or referencing publicly available documents so people can judge for themselves. I take the time to explain the science involved. To date only one person has debated the science.

To imply i am naive to commercialism and pressures thereof, is ludicrous. I get you and others dont like what Disney has done even though you haven’t tried it personally to see how the system can work or not work, but bringing some real data to the discussion is a stronger answer then ‘you are dumb for believing Disney marketing.’ The evil corporation argument is overused.

Is narrow less expensive? No doubt. Does that mean it was the driving consideration? Nope. We already have in evidence environmental concerns from local government, also documented is the local protests, so the environmental impact concerns can not be dismissed as corporate greed.

But sure, it’s obvious any Disney project has a working budget. Any well ran organizations has working budgets. Money is not infinite. Could Disney have spent more money to come up with a design that would please a vocal minority? Sure. Take it out of the budget. What other experience(s) are you going to cut to balance the budge? That’s a rhetorical question, no one here has access to the budget and how it was allocated so we can’t even being to know what the economic impact of these changes are.

Bottom line is people are aware today of the length of the bridge, and hence can make their own informed choice on whether LC is for them or not, or if they need assistance or not. There are options for the consumer. Exercise your right to choose, it will often get you further than your right to complain, especially in a situation where capital changes are neither fast nor easy.

 

[John VN]

You lost me on the holiday in express reference, but a cantilever tress design extends the reach but not on the same footprint, it enlarges the. You haven’t solved the problem just consolidated it. D’oh.

r.e. bold --

truss possibly ???

 

[lanejudy]

Also, someone who was able to walk it in the morning might find themselves unable to walk it after a long day

That’s fine. They don’t have to walk it at the end of the day. They can ride a golf cart. You do not have to pre-register for rides returning to the ship. It’s available to anyone at that time.

 

[Kwami]

I mean sure, you reduce the width of the pier by 25% then I suppose, yeah, it's 25% less impactful. Okay, but 25% of...what? Like just how impactful IS 25%? What does that actually mean? How do we measure impact? It's not like we can pull out a yardstick and measure the impact of a structure on the environment.

And with a bit more creative engineering, could it have been slightly wider but still had a similar impact? I find the whole thing baffling, but I suppose I'm not an engineer so I should probably shut up about it. It just seems to be that Disney said, "welp, can't be done! Oh well!"

More specifically, they were concerned with corals in the are as well as the habitats of other marine species.

Look, you all can go on about how Disney is just being cheap or lazy or whatever, but you're just speculating with absolutely nothing to back it up. When Disney proposed this project, there was a ton of pushback from environmental groups and locals who didn't want to disturb the natural environment. Disney had to make some concessions to get the project approved.

I'm glad that Disney did what they could to preserve as many natural habitats as they could and that they only developed what was necessary to get a really nice cruise destination.

Maybe you don't care about the environment, but a lot of us do, and Disney knows it. That's why they use ultra low sulfur fuel, why they have advanced waste water treatment facilities on the ships, why they use plug-in power whenever possible, and why they always score better than every other major cruise line when it comes to environmental concerns. Lookout Cay is just following the DCL model.

 

[brentm77]

? People are making blanket statements like this with zero details that make the assertions credible. In almost every comment I make (okay sometimes i am being silly but say so) it’s after researching and I give my reasoning with concrete (pun intended) laws of physics, or referencing publicly available documents so people can judge for themselves. I take the time to explain the science involved. To date only one person has debated the science.

To imply i am naive to commercialism and pressures thereof, is ludicrous. I get you and others dont like what Disney has done even though you haven’t tried it personally to see how the system can work or not work, but bringing some real data to the discussion is a stronger answer then ‘you are dumb for believing Disney marketing.’ The evil corporation argument is overused.

Is narrow less expensive? No doubt. Does that mean it was the driving consideration? Nope. We already have in evidence environmental concerns from local government, also documented is the local protests, so the environmental impact concerns can not be dismissed as corporate greed.

But sure, it’s obvious any Disney project has a working budget. Any well ran organizations has working budgets. Money is not infinite. Could Disney have spent more money to come up with a design that would please a vocal minority? Sure. Take it out of the budget. What other experience(s) are you going to cut to balance the budge? That’s a rhetorical question, no one here has access to the budget and how it was allocated so we can’t even being to know what the economic impact of these changes are.

Bottom line is people are aware today of the length of the bridge, and hence can make their own informed choice on whether LC is for them or not, or if they need assistance or not. There are options for the consumer. Exercise your right to choose, it will often get you further than your right to complain, especially in a situation where capital changes are neither fast nor easy.

It's pretty simple to me. What is the more reasonable explanation here? To me, it seems obvious that money was more likely the driver, since they didn't even add shade like competitors, which could be done on the existing structure. But I agree that it is 100% speculation, which I think is appropriate for a discussion forum. Yes, they have a budget, but this may have been an area worth increasing the budget, given the current competition in the market. Yes, people have a choice. But it doesn't bother me that the express their disappointment with the new product, particularly when they already booked it. It wouldn't keep me from going, but I can see why people wish Disney had done better. It's a gorgeous island that I would like to visit one day, but I prefer to wait until it's more grown in and the kinks are worked out.

 

[TeamRiley]

I will speculate some. I would guess that the impact to the sea floor was just a portion of the issue. (As a side note, a cantilever truss foundation could never withstand the bending moment induced by storm waves. )

I think the overall impact was probably more centered on blocking sunlight. A smaller pier blocks less light to the water and the sea bed. Any shade structure would add more shade over the water and sea bed.

This cruise stop was not designed to offer comfort and luxury. It was designed to teach about the environment and how to live in harmony with it.


I never plan trips to climb El Capitan in Yosemite because it would kill me. Some people should not plan to disembark here.

 

[brentm77]

I will speculate some. I would guess that the impact to the sea floor was just a portion of the issue. (As a side note, a cantilever truss foundation could never withstand the bending moment induced by storm waves. )

I think the overall impact was probably more centered on blocking sunlight. A smaller pier blocks less light to the water and the sea bed. Any shade structure would add more shade over the water and sea bed.

This cruise stop was not designed to offer comfort and luxury. It was designed to teach about the environment and how to live in harmony with it.


I never plan trips to climb El Capitan in Yosemite because it would kill me. Some people should not plan to disembark here.

The shade is a good point, which I hadn't thought about. But Disney really missed the mark if they think their average customer isn't looking for comfort and luxury experience on Disney's private beach. There are much less expensive (and environmentally friendly) ways to do that if that's what people are looking for. Few families will be knocking down their door to pay 10k and a week of vacation to learn about the environment without luxury and comfort. I hope they don't really think that.

 

[Mags2002]

I think the point is that it would be nice to not even get to that stage. My friend's perfectly healthy daughter had a heat stroke incident waiting outside in line in the Texas heat last week. What is that saying about an ounce of prevention?

This is why cool towels and water are offered

 

[Mags2002]

On a pier among dozens of other people, with no benches to rest on, and full golf carts going past you filled with other guests, that won't be an easy proposition.

How would you even get the golf cart driver's attention? Waving your arms around, calling out or sitting on the ground, so that everyone stares at you? And even when you have their attention, you'd have to explain that you gave out and ask for help in front of strangers. A lot of people will choose to push their bodies too far rather than deal with that level of embarrassment.

The golf carts aren’t going that fast. You could certainly wave. If you’re worried about all the people on it, flag one down that is going the other way back to the ship because if everyone is getting off the ship it will likely be empty. I think most people wouldn’t be embarrassed to ask for help if they really thought they needed it

 

[Mags2002]

What should someone do in the event that they've started walking but realize they need to rest or realize they can't make it?

Stop, hold the railing and do deep breathing. Meanwhile, have someone else in your party find a crew member or flag down a golf cart

 

[auntlynne]

The shade is a good point, which I hadn't thought about. But Disney really missed the mark if they think their average customer isn't looking for comfort and luxury experience on Disney's private beach. There are much less expensive (and environmentally friendly) ways to do that if that's what people are looking for. Few families will be knocking down their door to pay 10k and a week of vacation to learn about the environment without luxury and comfort. I hope they don't really think that.

Yes, sneak in a little environmentalism while you are on luxury vacation and you cover both profit and learning. Living with the Seas or The Land at EPCOT? Naturalists onboard Alaska cruises before we get in planes, trains and helicopters?

 

[Mags2002]

I'm not the one who suggested that people would be able to get a tram mid-pier. I was responding to a different poster who said that. My post described how that would be less than feasible.

A person could get physically overwhelmed in either direction. Also, someone who was able to walk it in the morning might find themselves unable to walk it after a long day when tired and in the much hotter afternoon. This is especially true for people whose main issue is an overall lack of fitness or strength, rather than an injury or other specific disabling condition that they're used to accommodating.

Yes, I'm sure that some people will nevertheless blame the overheated and overwhelmed person for not accurately gauging what their body would be capable of, rather than expecting Disney to have made the general experience more reasonable for people with a wider variety of needs. Some people on this forum will go to any length to defend Disney's poor decisions.

I did not say you could stop a tram. You can also only stop a golf cart in the event of an emergency.
No one is blaming any Guest. If you feel you can’t walk back in the afternoon, there is the option to get a ride on a golf cart

 

[auntlynne]

Stop, hold the railing and do deep breathing. Meanwhile, have someone else in your party find a crew member or flag down a golf cart

Wish it were that easy. I was on a walk in my own neighborhood and realized I was getting faint. I sent my sister for the car while I leaned on a mailbox. She didn’t get back before I was down. I was lowering myself carefully, then was on my back. There’s a blank part in there. Fortunately, I was almost to the soft grass before I blacked out.

I had been looking for a seat then. And would be looking for a seat on a concrete pier.

I am not prone to fainting. And dread falling. Especially on concrete, asphalt.

The golf cart might not be fast enough.

Hence my questioning the no seating if any kind between ship and tram. In open sun (until tram stop). And I am actually better when walking than standing.

 

[anricat]

Maybe you don't care about the environment, but a lot of us do, and Disney knows it.

I literally never said this. In fact, I would say that I am on the more concerned side of things than the average American. (My master's thesis was about primate conservation so I suppose you could say that I actually studied an aspect of environmentalism in grad school.)

I'm just trying to understand. Clearly I don't, and, as I said, I should probably just stop trying to because I'm not an engineer. Just something feels...off, that's all. It just feels like there has to be some better way that doesn't overly impact the environment and makes it easier to people to get to where they want.

 

[Pixarfans]

This is why cool towels and water are offered

And there is a cast member there IF you get stuck not feeling well that can help. Which I think is around the halfway (.25 mile distance).

One time in Epcot my son was feeling awful. Layed down on a bench and couldn’t move. It was very busy and A cast member did everything they could to help without us asking. Got him water and offered to get us a ride back to the Yatch Club. Were we embarrassed we needed help, nope because his safety was our concern.

Cast members will be around and if there is an emergency or a concern they are trained to help.

 

[anricat]

This is why cool towels and water are offered

I mean, that's great. Shade would be a marked improvement.

Either way, we'll be using a golf cart. Well, my 15 year old will be and I guess we'll just meet her on the other end. She has hEDS and mobility it hit or miss for her. Some days she looks like a regular kid dancing and jumping around. And then on high pain days, she can barely walk. We never know what we're going to get, but we'll definitely be asking for a golf cart in both directions to ensure that she doesn't overdue it and cause a high pain day. I just hope that we don't get any judgement from people when they see what appears to be an able-bodied teenager using the golf carts. A lot of people don't understand that her body can turn on her in an instant.