LOL, no Avatar land after all?

[Peter Pirate 2]

I must be missing the valid reasons for disliking a theme park expansion on which we haven't seen a single piece of concept art or basic written overview.

I understand that some folks don't care for Avatar. Big deal! I'm quite certain there are people who are not fans of Aerosmith, Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, Spider-Man, Men in Black and others who still enjoy their respective theme park attractions.

Shhhh, don't confuse anyone with logic and cognitive reasoning ... It just isn't magical.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I must be missing the valid reasons for disliking a theme park expansion on which we haven't seen a single piece of concept art or basic written overview.

I understand that some folks don't care for Avatar. Big deal! I'm quite certain there are people who are not fans of Aerosmith, Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, Spider-Man, Men in Black and others who still enjoy their respective theme park attractions.

I'm usually with you...but i don't think your stance or analogy holds up here...

Popularity of the original IP, characters, story, franchise - if you are using a third party established one - is a completely valid argument to express displeasure at a proposed project - in my opinion.

The harry potter expansion is a big success because the rowlings work was so well regarded/well received prior to the construction...and in that particular case - was a huge portion - as they really just rethemed the area and added one frontline attraction.

I'd say it's like the food network grading scale - you can receive 25 points each for:

Character (the ip - Avatarland is not scoring high on this - like it or not)
Technique (aka the technology used to create whatever it is they're going to build)
presentation (as in - what they actually build and how it looks)
taste (aka...staying power. is it a one and done like most of animal kingdom's existing sections...or can it be a significant, "core" draw not to just the park, but to WDW - a la fantasyland, tomorrowland or the world showcase)

if you say each "category" is worth 25 points...then probably - optimistically - the avatar land is down 10 points already.

which is my point. I haven't seen, heard, or been slightly interested in anything AVATAR since probably about its DVD release...and most didn't care then.

was that like november of 2009? to be honest...the next time i even thought about it was when i heard about the disney announcement last fall...and that was all of a minute and a half worth of concern.

This think is not star wars...its not harry potter...its not the super hero companies...hell, its not even star trek.

this "franchise" has not done a good job of remaining in the public consciousness so far. i think the original missed a lot of the target when it comes to franchise potential.

so it's not "haters"...its a legitimate argument and stance that cannot be ruled as foul.

my take

 

[yitbos96bb]

I don't like the idea of an avatarland simply because avatar isn't a movie with 'legs' in my opinion. It will go down as a footnote in movie history and be largely forgotten.

A better plan for that area would be to build out an Australia- or Americas-themed area. Plunk down a rethemed ride or two copied from DisneySea and you've pretty much guaranteed a successful expansion.

I do, however, agree with those who argue that dinoland needs a total redo. the dino-themed carnival theme never really worked for me. I think that an actual prehistoric/dino themed land could work, but that's far from the direction that they chose. My choice would be to keep the dino ride and scrap all of the carnival junk, replacing it with a couple b-level dino themed rides and an expanded dino walkthrough/play area.

The highest grossing films of all time do not go down as footnotes. Nor does a film that added amazing technical innovations in filmmaking. Avatar's 3D is like the iPod. It wasn't the first MP3 player, but it reimagined and redesigned the concept, creating a new and better standard. Ignoring any other aspect of the story, Avatar's contributions to film are still seen today and will continue to be. It's not Citizen Kane or the Godfather, but it is highly influential and calling it a footnote is an insult to film.

As for Dinoland, it's not a carnival. It's never been a carnival. It's a roadside attraction. What you'd see on classic route 66. What places like Gatorland or South of the Border. The theme of Chester and Hesters was that while the Dino institute bought all the land where Fossils were found (opening Countdown to Extinction to pay the institutes bills), Chester and Hester wouldnt sell their Gas Station and opened a classic roadside stand gift shop. The dinorama aspect is a natural extension of this theming. So while i respect those who dont care for it (although sadden they miss the point completely), it fits the overall dinoland theme well. Unfortunately too many people are oblivious to this concept, although that appears to be more a disboards feature than the rest of the guests.

I actually miss the grad students streetmosphere act. They tied in the theming of Restrauntosaurus and the Boneyard very well (Grad student hangout and fossil dig respectively).

 

[yitbos96bb]

I'm usually with you...but i don't think your stance or analogy holds up here...

Popularity of the original IP, characters, story, franchise - if you are using a third party established one - is a completely valid argument to express displeasure at a proposed project - in my opinion.

The harry potter expansion is a big success because the rowlings work was so well regarded/well received prior to the construction...and in that particular case - was a huge portion - as they really just rethemed the area and added one frontline attraction.

I'd say it's like the food network grading scale - you can receive 25 points each for:

Character (the ip - Avatarland is not scoring high on this - like it or not)
Technique (aka the technology used to create whatever it is they're going to build)
presentation (as in - what they actually build and how it looks)
taste (aka...staying power. is it a one and done like most of animal kingdom's existing sections...or can it be a significant, "core" draw not to just the park, but to WDW - a la fantasyland, tomorrowland or the world showcase)

if you say each "category" is worth 25 points...then probably - optimistically - the avatar land is down 10 points already.

which is my point. I haven't seen, heard, or been slightly interested in anything AVATAR since probably about its DVD release...and most didn't care then.

was that like november of 2009? to be honest...the next time i even thought about it was when i heard about the disney announcement last fall...and that was all of a minute and a half worth of concern.

This think is not star wars...its not harry potter...its not the super hero companies...hell, its not even star trek.

this "franchise" has not done a good job of remaining in the public consciousness so far. i think the original missed a lot of the target when it comes to franchise potential.

so it's not "haters"...its a legitimate argument and stance that cannot be ruled as foul.

my take

Go to a Sci fi convention. Avatar is an extremely popular IP.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Star wars and Harry Potter have numerous films and many more years of existence.

You are talking a 3 year old movie. With no sequels. Many many people disagree wih you on the story impact. It's not citizen Kane, Casablanca, or he godfather, but then neither is Star Wars or Indiana Jones.... In fact neither break any ground in storytelling... It's a reimagined hero's quest story. Star Wars borrows from classic cinema, especially Samurai and western genres. Same with Indiana Jones.

All I'm saying is your arguments are premature. The impact of the IP is still evolving but it has a strong geek following, after 3 more films, it could fall to second tier or rank as an all time great IP.

I also want to say it isn't people our age propelling the growth of the star wars IP nowadays. Nor is it the original movies. It's (a little sadly) kids watching the clone wars series that are responsible for the urgent growth of the IP.

 

[johnGorski]

I think we need to imagine fantasy world of "pandora" vs. Avatar the movie. If this is done right it will be great.

 

[mike the canuck]

I think we need to imagine fantasy world of "pandora" vs. Avatar the movie. If this is done right it will be great.

Exactly!

 

[pmiranda]

I am so pumped for this. Seeing the Pandora theme in full glory in real life would definitely bring me back again and again.

 

[dairylives]

I guess there's nothing i could say to convince anyone, but to actually consider Avatar as a franchise with a "huge", even "big" fanbase is laughable. People may have liked it when it came out, but the lack of enthusiasm for the franchise is something that has been topic of discussion all over the internet as well as industry professionals since the movie came out. Simply put, "Avatar" is something of a joke among sci fi fans, and has already faded out of most people's consciousness

 

[mike the canuck]

I guess there's nothing i could say to convince anyone, but to actually consider Avatar as a franchise with a "huge", even "big" fanbase is laughable. People may have liked it when it came out, but the lack of enthusiasm for the franchise is something that has been topic of discussion all over the internet as well as industry professionals since the movie came out. Simply put, "Avatar" is something of a joke among sci fi fans, and has already faded out of most people's consciousness

I don't think it has "faded out of most people's consciousness"
The broadcast premiere of Avatar had 222,000 viewers a few months ago. That is alot of people wanting to watch that movie.
http://tvfeedsmyfamily.blogspot.ca/2012/05/chch-goes-big-and-blue-with-avatar.html

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

As far as I'm concerned, the HUGE problem with Avatar is that Pandora does not translate well to a theme park environment. It's impossible to physically recreate Pandora's wide-open alien landscape with floating mountains, natural features of awe-inspiring scale, no towns, and no streets. To cram Pandora into a dozen acres at a theme park will rob it of everything that made Pandora what it was in the movie.

In comparison, the village of Hogsmeade -- a small village with places to eat, drink, and shop -- was an ideal subject for a theme park.

Bob Iger wanted the theme park rights to Avatar because he was obviously very impressed with Avatar's box office -- not because Pandora lends itself well to being a "land" at a Disney theme park.

Perhaps the sequels will give the Imagineers more to work with.

 

[Andy713]

Hey everyone! I'm new here and I've been "lurking" for a very long time and finally decided to join in all the fun you guys seem to be having! I have thought quite a bit about the idea of Avatar or Pandora and I have some hope. I think maybe one of the possible "plusses" of the thin story line/character development of Avatar will be Disney's ability to "flesh out" some of the details. Cameron of course would oversee all of this, but it could be sort of the "off camera" stuff that could be expanded. While not having the rich narrative of Potter, I believe Disney, with the right budget (!) could create an expansive mythology and at the same time blend it in with AK established theme. Just a thought.

 

[johnGorski]

Hey everyone! I'm new here and I've been "lurking" for a very long time and finally decided to join in all the fun you guys seem to be having! I have thought quite a bit about the idea of Avatar or Pandora and I have some hope. I think maybe one of the possible "plusses" of the thin story line/character development of Avatar will be Disney's ability to "flesh out" some of the details. Cameron of course would oversee all of this, but it could be sort of the "off camera" stuff that could be expanded. While not having the rich narrative of Potter, I believe Disney, with the right budget (!) could create an expansive mythology and at the same time blend it in with AK established theme. Just a thought.

Hello Andy, welcome. Yes it is very fun trying to crack many many riddles on what Disney will do in the future.

 

[Andy713]

Hello Andy, welcome. Yes it is very fun trying to crack many many riddles on what Disney will do in the future.

Thanks. I do look forward to joining in the discussions. I'm cautiously optimistic about Avatar or Pandora and it's design potential. $500 mil would make for some fairly nice offerings, but half that, not sure. I guess I'm expecting great things not to just counter Potter, but to showcase the full creative ability of WDI. I've never been sure of Avatar in AK, but if it's going to be, then make it great. I want to be stunned by the visuals, truly taken away to a vastly different world on a scale not seen in a long time at WDW. It's a lot, but I can hope, right?

 

[SusanWDW]

I'm hoping an Avatar Land will include removing Hester and Chester's Dinoland section. I've always thought that area was cheap looking and obnoxious... it's loud, has tacky midway games that cost money to play, and the rides aren't great. It's also a slap in the face to Disney, who said one one of the reasons he created Disneyland and World because he disliked amusement parks like that.

I love the rest of Animal Kingdom though, it's beautiful and the Kilimanjaro Safari and Lion King show are among the best Disney attractions, in my opinion. Also the animals look like they're treated well, so I hope an Avatar Land will live up to those standards and also replace the Chester and Hester area.

Susan

 

[Andy713]

I think the only way Avatar/Pandora will succeed on any level, especially with the fan community, is to give 100%. DCA and IOA should be gleaming examples to TDO or whoever call the shots, that with the right budget and the right leadership/vision, this attraction could spell great things for AK and WDW overall. A slashed budget, watered down narrative, or something built "off the shelf" is going to be a wasted opportunity. Merchandise, attraction ideas, unique environments, all have a chance here. Something special could happen with this. Will it? Who knows? Perhaps with James Cameron's input and perfectionist attitude, maybe so. I guess we'll all find out.

 

[skier_pete]

As far as I'm concerned, the HUGE problem with Avatar is that Pandora does not translate well to a theme park environment. It's impossible to physically recreate Pandora's wide-open alien landscape with floating mountains, natural features of awe-inspiring scale, no towns, and no streets. To cram Pandora into a dozen acres at a theme park will rob it of everything that made Pandora what it was in the movie.

In comparison, the village of Hogsmeade -- a small village with places to eat, drink, and shop -- was an ideal subject for a theme park.

Bob Iger wanted the theme park rights to Avatar because he was obviously very impressed with Avatar's box office -- not because Pandora lends itself well to being a "land" at a Disney theme park.

Perhaps the sequels will give the Imagineers more to work with.

Meh - I don't think this is such a problem. The Alien landscapes such as the floating mountains will be replicated in a simulator ride. (The "flying ride" that Cameron has described.) The main "land" can be themed as the human "base camp" and transition the Na'vi "home tree".

I think the only potential issue any fan should be concerned with is "budget". If Disney doesn't cheap out, it will be fantastic.

SkierPete

(Now commence with the 10 posts telling me how Disney WILL cheap out.)

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Meh - I don't think this is such a problem. The Alien landscapes such as the floating mountains will be replicated in a simulator ride. (The "flying ride" that Cameron has described.) The main "land" can be themed as the human "base camp" and transition the Na'vi "home tree".

A ride could work. And they can do something to make it a whole "land," but it could never come remotely close to matching the grandeur of the CGI environment in the first Avatar movie.

The human "base camp" is not an inviting basis for a theme park "village." And no matter how much money Disney invests in building a Na'vi "home tree," it will fail to live up to its movie counterpart.

 

[Cogswel_Cogs]

I could see a Dragon/bird whatever the heck they were ride similar to Harry Potter journey ride work very well. That said I think they need a better story, the only thing that was good about the first movie wasthe vision. They need to put some vision into the story. And the fact that they are going to do three at once worries me. Stories take time to develop and I often think good continuations feed off the feedback from ufans.

 

[LuvSnowWhite]

I'm hoping an Avatar Land will include removing Hester and Chester's Dinoland section. I've always thought that area was cheap looking and obnoxious... it's loud, has tacky midway games that cost money to play, and the rides aren't great. It's also a slap in the face to Disney, who said one one of the reasons he created Disneyland and World because he disliked amusement parks like that.



Susan

I agree. I don't feel like this area fits either and it should definitely be changed but how about make it something like a South America or Australia section. With the theme of... oh...how about...ANIMALS. I guess I could get used to Avatar land or ride but put it where it belongs in DHS!

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

I agree. I don't feel like this area fits either and it should definitely be changed but how about make it something like a South America or Australia section. With the theme of... oh...how about...ANIMALS. I guess I could get used to Avatar land or ride but put it where it belongs in DHS!

As guests, I think there are many of us who would prefer Disney's Animal Kingdom to be about the animals on the continents of Earth and how human cultures respect those animals... not about the CGI creatures, CGI humanoids, and CGI landscape of James Cameron's imaginary Pandora.

But for The Walt Disney Compnay, It's not about having the best, most thematically cohesive theme park. It's about leveraging the successful Avatar brand.

Bob Iger saw the money that Avatar took in at the box office, and now hopes that guests will flock to Disney's Animal Kingdom with their wallets. Let's call it "learning from the success of Universal's Harry Potter."