Attack of the Lakeshore Lodge

[tx911]

I suppose, but the current extent is already pretty dang far. I've said this many (many) times, but I figure I have three options when it comes to DVC.

1. Trust that DVC is generally trying to do right by its owners.
2. Assume that DVC is purely self-interested, but decide that the value proposition is still there for me as an owner.
3. Sell.

I'm somewhere between 1 and 2, leaning closer to 2.

2.5 Find yourself with "more points than you can use this year" and rent them

 

[mkatsy]

I suppose, but the current extent is already pretty dang far. I've said this many (many) times, but I figure I have three options when it comes to DVC.

1. Trust that DVC is generally trying to do right by its owners.
2. Assume that DVC is purely self-interested, but decide that the value proposition is still there for me as an owner.
3. Sell.

I'm somewhere between 1 and 2, leaning closer to 2.

2.5 Find yourself with "more points than you can use this year" and rent them

2.5.a enjoy what I have, because we do truly find value in the contracts we’ve chosen, but stop dumping any more money into this product. Start looking for the illicit DVC underground that’s selling point transfers for cash in the Home Depot parking lot.

 

[DonkeyHoTay]

the bus stop for Ft. Wilderness is literally right next to construction fences surrounding LSL - I have a new found appreciation for just how close these two resorts are going to be....Just my gut - but makes me even more convinced that LSL and CFW will be combined. And, yeah, why on earth would they not put it into the trust to give them more flexibility than they already have. Those of us on these boards will wax and wane about the legal intricacies . . . meanwhile, DVD will continue to sell those points.

3: Add to the Palmetto Trust association and activate it into the same RTU plan as the cabins, so both CFW and LSL are seen as one “home resort”

I'm 100% betting on #3. My plan to jump the fence and break into the LSL lazy river while on a CFW cabin reservation depends on this outcome. Hopefully there will be no need for my trespassing and LSL staff will just welcome us CFW rubes with open arms.

 

[LittleBitGoofy]

Do they pipe in the music on the boat?

Yep! They sure did have the music directly on the boats. It was perfect. Like private front row seats to the show.

 

[Tatebeck]

I'm 100% betting on #3. My plan to jump the fence and break into the LSL lazy river while on a CFW cabin reservation depends on this outcome. Hopefully there will be no need for my trespassing and LSL staff will just welcome us CFW rubes with open arms.

I'm just the opposite. If they combine them there is a much lower chance I would be interested in owning points there. I would stay at the lodge way more than the CFW cabins, so I would not want to be subsidizing the higher dues of the cabins. It also would mean that fancy lazy river may be more crowded and no thank you to that!

So I personally hope they are separate. But it probably depends on the point chart they make and just how much damage adding CFW would do to LSL dues. If they are able to keep the dues less than or at AKV or OKW levels then I think they may try it. Any higher than those dues and I think they would have a very hard time selling LSL/CFW combined and I don't think they would risk it. They are going to have a TON of points to sell once LSL opens after all. Better to have a larger chunk sell well and a small chunk not sell than ALL of the points at both LSL and CFW sell poorly.

I would vote to just keep CFW as an unsold 7 month booking release valve for direct purchasers at all the other resorts

 

[bama_ed]

Well, there is no real estate to claim that this is NOT an ugly, nor an obtrusive resort property. Because, honestly, Helen Keller could look at this ugly hulk and shudder at the view. No?

Also, it fits in ANY of the 32 bland JWMarriot brands because ANYTHING can fit in 32 properties, no?

But overall I'm happy that that I keep be proven right (not that I care or need anyone's opinion) about this ugly resort.

Cool. Rock on!

Bama Ed

 

[Sandisw]

This all makes sense. My main confusion is how dues are effected if they end up adding or replacing inventory. How are dues for RTU plans even structured? It seems to me like a bait and switch if I buy an RTU for PVB for example (low dues) and then CFW gets added to the RTU and suddenly my dues skyrocket. So there must be a mechanism for governing that I assume?

Dues are governed by whatever is in the RTU plan.

It’s not bait and switch because the POS documents explain it all and is clear they can add other inventory to the plan.

So, if one buys knowing it’s a certain resort with certain dues, there is always a chance they add something else and it impacts the dues.

As I said, that is what really differentiates the two products.

Until DVD adds a second resort into the trust and sells it RTU, there is no way to even figure out what and how they could use it in the future.

Adding new inventory to the same RTU plan could help dues go down just as much as they could go up.

But, there are not guarantees like current resorts. Points are based on inventory that is added and DVD gets to decide that.

The only guarantee that I see is something to the effect that the initial point charts has to be valid for 3 years..meaning any additional units can’t cause a huge jump during those years.

I’ll try to find the language again

 

[Sandisw]

Not to the same extent. I feel like the trust structure provides Disney with for more creative ways to do shady stuff we trust them not to do.

IMO, selling DVC using a trust and RTU plan gives DVD a different product to sell that allows them to do things they can’t do when they are selling ownership interests in a specific unit.

They retain 100% ownership of the resort. That’s why I think that this will be the way they will move for all future resorts, even if they keep each one in their own plan.

 

[mkatsy]

Well, there is no real estate to claim that this is NOT an ugly, nor an obtrusive resort property. Because, honestly, Helen Keller could look at this ugly hulk and shudder at the view. No?

Also, it fits in ANY of the 32 bland JWMarriot brands because ANYTHING can fit in 32 properties, no?

But overall I'm happy that that I keep be proven right (not that I care or need anyone's opinion) about this ugly resort.

Cool. Rock on!

Bama Ed

It is freakishly close to pioneer hall. What’s the over/under that they have plans for that space, and demolish it?

 

[Sandisw]

They either weren't the same, or Disney doesn't think they are bound by any decisions about that chart, because they absolutely re-allocated across units, room types, and entire bulidings with AKV in 2027.

I looked into AKV a bit and it seems to me that what muddies the waters there is CL.

The extra points for staying CL comes from other units…because if CL was stopped, those extra points go back to the other rooms.

What we don’t know is where those original points came from and so with the shifts in 2027x I can think of a way they could have reallocated that might explain the shift.

I don’t own AKV so not something I care to investigate but some AKV owners mentioned they planned to.

ETA: However, I 100% agree that they believe the contact and the law allows them to shift points when it comes to the point charts for use at the resort level.

 

[zavandor]

Dues are governed by whatever is in the RTU plan.

It’s not bait and switch because the POS documents explain it all and is clear they can add other inventory to the plan.

So, if one buys knowing it’s a certain resort with certain dues, there is always a chance they add something else and it impacts the dues.

As I said, that is what really differentiates the two products.

Until DVD adds a second resort into the trust and sells it RTU, there is no way to even figure out what and how they could use it in the future.

Adding new inventory to the same RTU plan could help dues go down just as much as they could go up.

But, there are not guarantees like current resorts. Points are based on inventory that is added and DVD gets to decide that.

The only guarantee that I see is something to the effect that the initial point charts has to be valid for 3 years..meaning any additional units can’t cause a huge jump during those years.

I’ll try to find the language again

DVD can add to deeded resorts in a way that impact dues. They built a second feature pool at SSR, which they paid for, but owners pay for staffing and maintenance. Also, they added the THV, which (wild guess) need more maintenance as they are single units like the CFW. Impact on SSR MF weren't noticeable, because the resort has a lot of points, but it could happen everywhere.
For me, the trust brings a higher risk of points shenanigans. There is very little protection for owners. DVD has shown with the 2020 points charts and with what they did with the PIT views they're very happy to play with the point charts at the expense of members. Personally, I would buy CFW (or other trust properties) only if I wanted a favorite week.

 

[Girlstar30]

DVD can add to deeded resorts in a way that impact dues. They built a second feature pool at SSR, which they paid for, but owners pay for staffing and maintenance. Also, they added the THV, which (wild guess) need more maintenance as they are single units like the CFW. Impact on SSR MF weren't noticeable, because the resort has a lot of points, but it could happen everywhere.
For me, the trust brings a higher risk of points shenanigans. There is very little protection for owners. DVD has shown with the 2020 points charts and with what they did with the PIT views they're very happy to play with the point charts at the expense of members. Personally, I would buy CFW (or other trust properties) only if I wanted a favorite week.

 

[FlyingDonut]

I had been leaning towards thinking CFW and LSL would be together as one home resort / similar feeling equivalent in the trust.

However, I'm now trying to imagine what the points chart would look like in terms of room categories. A combined resort could offer:

• duo studios (maybe)
• studios
• CFW cabins
• traditional DVC 1BRs
• 2BRs
• penthouse variant of 2BR in the tower (maybe)
• The big A frame cabins
• grand villa

I've tried to order these from what I would expect to be least to greatest point cost. Even if the penthouse doesn't come to be, that's a complicated points chart. Also, it just feels wrong to have two things called "cabins" on the chart but have them be such radically different products. I just can't imagine a cast member asking me to confirm "you want the smaller, cheaper cabin, right?"
Alternatively, maybe this is at least an argument for fewer view categories (no TPV?) to keep me from needing a second monitor to read everything?

 

[davidhr]

I have always leaned towards LSL and CFW being the same. My conspiracy theory is Disney was throwing the cabins to DVC anyways to offload some of the operating costs to owners. but with Covid they had to pause Reflections and had to refurbish the cabins. This switched the order of how it was supposed to happen and we got the horrible situation of the Cabins being DVC without a deluxe resort.

 

[Brian Noble]

I think that's exactly how this went down, though they weren't just offloading operating costs but also hoping to recover the capital spent on cabin replacement more quickly.

 

[DonkeyHoTay]

IMO, selling DVC using a trust and RTU plan gives DVD a different product to sell that allows them to do things they can’t do when they are selling ownership interests in a specific unit....They retain 100% ownership of the resort. That’s why I think that this will be the way they will move for all future resorts, even if they keep each one in their own plan.

Totally agree. We really won't know how DVD plans to use/abuse the trust program until more properties are added to it (presumably LSL is next to be added?), but I will guess all future resorts are going to be in the master Trust (either separately RTU or combined) and people will just have to decide if they can live with the RTU plan when buying new direct points at new resorts, as evidenced by DVD monthly point sales.

For myself, I like to think I hedged my bets with only fixed week at the trust enabled CFW and all the rest of my points (OKWe and PVB) being old school deeded interest.

 

[Sandisw]

DVD can add to deeded resorts in a way that impact dues. They built a second feature pool at SSR, which they paid for, but owners pay for staffing and maintenance. Also, they added the THV, which (wild guess) need more maintenance as they are single units like the CFW. Impact on SSR MF weren't noticeable, because the resort has a lot of points, but it could happen everywhere.
For me, the trust brings a higher risk of points shenanigans. There is very little protection for owners. DVD has shown with the 2020 points charts and with what they did with the PIT views they're very happy to play with the point charts at the expense of members. Personally, I would buy CFW (or other trust properties) only if I wanted a favorite week.

Selling via a trust and RTU model definitely changes how things works when it comes to point charts as they are based on all inventory that has been activated into the same RTU plan.

They are not attached to any specific rooms which is why they can include multiple component sites into the same RTU plan and then reallocate across all.

I agree that if someone is buying CFW or any future resort that could be sold this way and they want to guarantee they have their set vacation in a specific room type, a FW will be the way to go.

I can see pros/cons though for some who might be interested in having multiple resorts as their "home resort"....

Reading the CFW POS gives one a clear picture though of how it works and that the only balance that has to occur is that the total points in the charts (absent calendar changes) has to match the total points activated into that specific plan....

So, if there were to put some (or all) of LSL into the same RTU plan as CFW, then both would be considered one home resort.

But even now, they only have 63 cabins that are in the CFW RTU and they don't have to end up adding the rest to that specific plan. Being added to the trust doesn't require all of them to be in the same RTU plan....that is another big difference that I see....

 

[tidefan]

Reading the CFW POS gives one a clear picture though of how it works and that the only balance that has to occur is that the total points in the charts (absent calendar changes) has to match the total points activated into that specific plan....

So, if there were to put some (or all) of LSL into the same RTU plan as CFW, then both would be considered one home resort.

But even now, they only have 63 cabins that are in the CFW RTU and they don't have to end up adding the rest to that specific plan. Being added to the trust doesn't require all of them to be in the same RTU plan....that is another big difference that I see....

This is my fear, with CFW, specifically. In other words, they could declare the next 63 cabins into the RTU plan, make those 63 say 2 more points on average each night, then reallocate across all 126 now declared cabins and they are all now "magically" 1 more point per night than they used to be.

Not saying they will do this... but the POS explicitly allows them to do this now if I read it correctly.

 

[Sandisw]

Totally agree. We really won't know how DVD plans to use/abuse the trust program until more properties are added to it (presumably LSL is next to be added?), but I will guess all future resorts are going to be in the master Trust (either separately RTU or combined) and people will just have to decide if they can live with the RTU plan when buying new direct points at new resorts, as evidenced by DVD monthly point sales.

For myself, I like to think I hedged my bets with only fixed week at the trust enabled CFW and all the rest of my points (OKWe and PVB) being old school deeded interest.

I can even envision how some might like a combined RTU plan....take the Epcot area....when 2042 comes, I could see some new owners who might be happy to see both BWV and BCV in the same RTU plan or, how about a BCV/YC home resort that are combined as one.

I do agree with others that I think CFW and LSL (when it was Reflections) was always meant to be the plan but COVID changed how it had to roll out.

At least we should have some insight at the end of 2026 of the current thinking!!!!

 

[Sandisw]

This is my fear, with CFW, specifically. In other words, they could declare the next 63 cabins into the RTU plan, make those 63 say 2 more points on average each night, then reallocate across all 126 now declared cabins and they are all now "magically" 1 more point per night than they used to be.

Not saying they will do this... but the POS explicitly allows them to do this now if I read it correctly.

They have already done this to a small degree.. Per DVC News: www.dvcnews.com

According to the documentation submitted by Disney, the 33 cabins account for 257,961 DVC points. That means each cabin is allotted 7,817 points. When it made the initial declaration for the Cabins in February 2024, it stated the 30 initially declared cabins accounted for 229,820 points, which would mean that each cabin is allotted 7,660.67 points. We do not yet have an explanation for this discrepancy.

Based on my reading of the POS, the discrepency appears to be because of the way the RTU model works.....it allows for this and how over time, things can go up.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the point charts still have to balance against total points in the RTU plan and the CFW POS does say that the up/down each use day is limiated to the 20% change....

It will be interesting to see what happens when they declare more!!!