Let's Talk About the Issues, People

[zurgswife]

BREAKING DOWN THE NUMBERS Here's how the average tax bill could change in 2009 if either John McCain's or Barack Obama's tax proposals were fully in place.

-----------------MCCAIN------------ OBAMA
Income Avg.----- tax bill Avg.------ tax bill
Over $2.9M ----- (-$269,364)------ (+$701,885)
$603K and up-----(-$45,361)--------(+$115,974)
$227K-$603K-------(-$7,871)------------(+$12)
$161K-$227K-------(-$4,380)----------(-$2,789)
$112K-$161K -------(-$2,614)---------(-$2,204)
$66K-$112K --------(-$1,009)---------(-$1,290)
$38K-$66K -----------(-$319)---------(-$1,042)
$19K-$38K-----------(-$113 )-----------(-$892)
Under $19K -----------(-$19 )-----------(-$567)
Source:The Tax Policy Center


With McCain the more you make the bigger your tax savings. Those that have lots of money don't think twice about what they spend but with McCains tax plan they will receive a tax savings of somewhere between $8,000 and $270,000. At least with Obama's cuts those making under $19K might be able to buy a months of groceries with the savings...with McCain's savings $19 --- )here in PA that would be 2 gallons of milk $8, 2 loafs of bread $2, jar of peanunt butter $5 and a jar of jelly $3), that is a joke.
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[Galahad]

BREAKING DOWN THE NUMBERS Here's how the average tax bill could change in 2009 if either John McCain's or Barack Obama's tax proposals were fully in place.

-----------------MCCAIN------------ OBAMA
Income Avg.----- tax bill Avg.------ tax bill
Over $2.9M ----- (-$269,364)------ (+$701,885)
$603K and up-----(-$45,361)--------(+$115,974)
$227K-$603K-------(-$7,871)------------(+$12)
$161K-$227K-------(-$4,380)----------(-$2,789)
$112K-$161K -------(-$2,614)---------(-$2,204)
$66K-$112K --------(-$1,009)---------(-$1,290)
$38K-$66K -----------(-$319)---------(-$1,042)
$19K-$38K-----------(-$113 )-----------(-$892)
Under $19K -----------(-$19 )-----------(-$567)
Source:The Tax Policy Center


With McCain the more you make the bigger your tax savings. Those that have lots of money don't think twice about what they spend but with McCains tax plan they will receive a tax savings of somewhere between $8,000 and $270,000. At least with Obama's cuts those making under $19K might be able to buy a months of groceries with the savings...with McCain's savings $19 --- )here in PA that would be 2 gallons of milk $8, 2 loafs of bread $2, jar of peanunt butter $5 and a jar of jelly $3), that is a joke.
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Those are misleading and arbitrary ranges - and too wide. For example, there is no way the family with $227K to $603K will only see a $19 increase in taxes if this from Obama's plan is implemented:

"Permanently extend marriage penalty relief, adoption credit expansions, 10,15,25, and 28% rates, EITC simplification

Restore 36 and 39.6% statutory income tax rates, Restore PEP and Pease phaseouts for households making more than $250,000, increase in PEP and Pease threshold"

Nobody should pay a 40% marginal rate. There is nothing defensible about that. What you have "left over" after taxes is not a rational basis upon which to base tax policy.

 

[RitaE]

People making $227,000 a year most certainly do have to think about what they spend. In many parts of the country, that is solid middle class.

A family making $227,000 a year with 2 children and mortgage is not living the high life. They have 2 full college tuitions to save for, because they will receive absolutely no need based Financial Aid. They cannot save for their Retirements using Roth IRA or other tax advantaged means. They do not receive many deductions and credits that other families take for granted due to income phase out provisions. They don't even get Stimulus Rebate checks. Also at that level of income, it becomes incredibly likely that they might get hit with the AMT, pushing their tax bill even higher.

People at those incomes are quite often what is known as "white collar Professionals - Doctors, Lawyers, Executives etc" and it is not uncommon for them to have Student Loans that are mortgage sized. Their work weeks are commonly in the 70 to 80 hour range. They work HARD and they deserve to keep their money. I really don't understand why people think that they should have to pay 40 to 50% of their income in taxes to "rebate" people money who are already paying little or no taxes.

With McCain the more you make the bigger your tax savings.

That is because people who make more are the ones paying all the taxes. Lower income levels are already at a 0% effective tax rate for the Federal Income Tax. There is nothing left to reduce and the "refundable credits" such as the Child Tax Credits and the EITC are getting out of control.

 

[TruBlu]

People making $227,000 a year most certainly do have to think about what they spend. In many parts of the country, that is solid middle class.

In that case, I'm not even close to middle class.

 

[RitaE]

probably not, if you lived in San Francisco or New York City.

 

[Disney Doll]

We live about an hour north of NYC, and truthfully, $277K doesn't put you into the stratosphere around here as far as income goes.
As a PP said, that's about what an MD probably earns. With a 70 hour workweek, and a huge amount of liability. Plus, with that kind of income, there is no financial aide for college...none...zip.

We have a friend who is an MD who lives in our town. If I had to venture a guess, I'd guess he's probably making between $200K-$300K per year, between he & his wife's salary (she's a school nurse). They have a nice house, but one that is pretty normal for our town...nothing extravagant. He drives a Honda, she drives a minivan. They have 3 kids, 2 of whom are finished with college (one just this June) and one who is in college (2nd year). I will tell you that these folks have received no financial aide for college for their kids...the whole nut is theirs, or student loans for the kids. Some big bucks spent there. They do not live an extravagant lifestyle...she clips coupons, they are going to WDW with us in January and staying at Pop (as opposed to the Grand Floridian or another deluxe, which you would expect when you hear "doctor"), there is no shopping in fancy stores...Wal-Mart, Target, local discounters....Macy's is probably the top of the heap for them as far as retail is concerned. So I do see the PP's point when they said that people who earn what seems to be a lot of $$ also don't get a lot of the breaks that the rest of us do, and if they live in an expensive area (which our area is) $200K isn't a ton of money.

My house, a very normal 6 room Cape Cod style home, started home, no bells and whistles, 1/3 acre lot....very typical, cute but nothing out of the absolute ordinary...probably $450,000 if I tried to sell it. DH & I have priced and looked around other areas of the country...we have seen homes that, in our area, would sell for probably $750K that are priced at $250K-$300K where they are located. Big difference.

 

[loco4dis]

BREAKING DOWN THE NUMBERS Here's how the average tax bill could change in 2009 if either John McCain's or Barack Obama's tax proposals were fully in place.

-----------------MCCAIN------------ OBAMA
Income Avg.----- tax bill Avg.------ tax bill
Over $2.9M ----- (-$269,364)------ (+$701,885)
$603K and up-----(-$45,361)--------(+$115,974)
$227K-$603K-------(-$7,871)------------(+$12)
$161K-$227K-------(-$4,380)----------(-$2,789)
$112K-$161K -------(-$2,614)---------(-$2,204)
$66K-$112K --------(-$1,009)---------(-$1,290)
$38K-$66K -----------(-$319)---------(-$1,042)
$19K-$38K-----------(-$113 )-----------(-$892)
Under $19K -----------(-$19 )-----------(-$567)
Source:The Tax Policy Center


With McCain the more you make the bigger your tax savings. Those that have lots of money don't think twice about what they spend but with McCains tax plan they will receive a tax savings of somewhere between $8,000 and $270,000. At least with Obama's cuts those making under $19K might be able to buy a months of groceries with the savings...with McCain's savings $19 --- )here in PA that would be 2 gallons of milk $8, 2 loafs of bread $2, jar of peanunt butter $5 and a jar of jelly $3), that is a joke.
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This is deeply misleading data. In reality, IRS data for 2006 shows that the top 1% of income earners now pay 40% of ALL federal income taxes, while earning just 22% of all income. The top 5% pay 60% of income taxes while earning 37% of income. The bottom 50% of income earners pay only 3% of federal income taxes

OF COURSE the top earners will get "more back" if taxes are lowered — they PAID MORE — a lot more! Barack Obama's proposal is a wide-scale welfare and income redistribution plan hidden in the Trojan Horse of a "tax plan." The money those lower earners will be "getting back" isn't money they paid in taxes at all, but rather a boost to their overall income by having earnings from top earners REDISTRIBUTED to them. The refunds reflected in the McCain plan reflect refunds on the already incredibly low taxes they actually paid.

Look at it this way. If you give me 20 marbles and someone else gives me 2 marbles, and I decide to give back 25% of what each gave, the person who gave me 20 marbles will get back 5, while the person who gave me 2 marbles will get back 1/2 of a marble. If that second person gets back 3 marbles, instead of 1/2, he hasn't gotten a "bigger tax break," he has gotten someone else's marble redistributed to him — and that has nothing whatsoever to do with taxes or tax rates.

 

[LuvDuke]

This is deeply misleading data. In reality, IRS data for 2006 shows that the top 1% of income earners now pay 40% of ALL federal income taxes, while earning just 22% of all income. The top 5% pay 60% of income taxes while earning 37% of income. The bottom 50% of income earners pay only 3% of federal income taxes

OF COURSE the top earners will get "more back" if taxes are lowered — they PAID MORE — a lot more! Barack Obama's proposal is a wide-scale welfare and income redistribution plan hidden in the Trojan Horse of a "tax plan." The money those lower earners will be "getting back" isn't money they paid in taxes at all, but rather a boost to their overall income by having earnings from top earners REDISTRIBUTED to them. The refunds reflected in the McCain plan reflect refunds on the already incredibly low taxes they actually paid.

Look at it this way. If you give me 20 marbles and someone else gives me 2 marbles, and I decide to give back 25% of what each gave, the person who gave me 20 marbles will get back 5, while the person who gave me 2 marbles will get back 1/2 of a marble. If that second person gets back 3 marbles, instead of 1/2, he hasn't gotten a "bigger tax break," he has gotten someone else's marble redistributed to him — and that has nothing whatsoever to do with taxes or tax rates.

Sure you didn't lose a few marbles?

 

[Rence]

I know that folks are getting tired of the war of personalities etc. But I have to admit that I gave up paying a lot of attention to the "Issues" years ago.

The reality is that issues that candidates run on and what happens after they are elected are frequently two very different things. I feel that the "Issues" are but a small part of the equation. The political history says more than their current stand on the issues, their personality also has a big impact - you may agree with Candidate X on every single issue - but if Candidate X is a huge flip flopper that changes positions frequently and lies about where he/she stands on the issues - what does it matter that you agree with his/her current stand on the issues?

Right now McCain is running to the right of where he has been throughout his political career. He has always presented himself as a moderate Republican maverick. He has moved to the right because a true moderate would never get the Republican nomination. He would also lose the votes of the far right, if they viewed him as too centrist.

Obama is running more to the center than where he has been throughout his political career. He must move to the center to pick up independent moderate voters.

This isn't just McCain & Obama, it is almost every candidate who has ever run for public office. McCain or Obama, if elected, will probably govern a lot more like their history shows, than as they current stands on the "issues" would indicate.

So while a candidates stand on the issues is a factor, and how they do in the debates should be weighed in, it is only one small part of the equation and to make a truely informed decision you do have to look at who they've been in the past, and who they are as a person.

 

[loco4dis]

Sure you didn't lose a few marbles?

Pernicious income redistribution and welfare programs masquerading as "a tax plan" do make me go a little batty, I'll admit. And when voters understand what such "plans" really are, they lose a few marbles, too. The usual response is: Obama wants to do WHAT? He wants to take MY money, that I EARNED, and give it to that guy over there? Why? Why would he think that's ethical? And why is he lying, and calling it a "tax cut" when some will get "refunds" that exceed what they paid in taxes? That's not a refund; it's welfare. And it's wrong.

 

[LuvDuke]

Pernicious income redistribution and welfare programs masquerading as "a tax plan" do make me go a little batty, I'll admit. And when voters understand what such "plans" really are, they lose a few marbles, too. The usual response is: Obama wants to do WHAT? He wants to take MY money, that I EARNED, and give it to that guy over there? Why? Why would he think that's ethical? And why is he lying, and calling it a "tax cut" when some will get "refunds" that exceed what they paid in taxes? That's not a refund; it's welfare. And it's wrong.

Calm down. Have a coconut.

 

[loco4dis]

Calm down. Have a coconut.

Twice with the quips. Twice with the inability to defend Obama's income redistribution and welfare plan masquerading as "a tax plan." Want to go for three dodges? Have at it.

 

[LuvDuke]

Twice with the quips. Twice with the inability to defend Obama's income redistribution and welfare plan masquerading as "a tax plan." Want to go for three dodges? Have at it.

Take the hint.