Let's talk about the economy

[Zippa D Doodah]

Believe me, I'm not starting the thread to lead the discussion -cuz I am certainly a learner when it comes to this issue.

I'm a tad nervous about the shape ofour entire economy right now. I don't give a flip about saying "It's Bush's fault! It's Congress' fault! etc." I do believe in a free market economy.

That being the case, I can hardly believe a GOP-led White House team is crafting legislation for a trillion $ bailout of Wall Street. I've read the expert opinions about how the whole economy could crash without the bailout. I've read the sunny optimistic reports about how the federal government could even turn a profit on ventures such as the AIG loan.

But what kind of government is this, where the fed controls and partially owns major players in the economy? At what cost, financial and otherwise, are we the taxpayers doing this? Is anyone else just a tad ticked off that the Wall Street fat cats aren't going to suffer personal losses?

Anybody else trying to sort through all this and figure out what it means?

 

[bsnyder]

Believe me, I'm not starting the thread to lead the discussion -cuz I am certainly a learner when it comes to this issue.

I'm a tad nervous about the shape ofour entire economy right now. I don't give a flip about saying "It's Bush's fault! It's Congress' fault! etc." I do believe in a free market economy.

That being the case, I can hardly believe a GOP-led White House team is crafting legislation for a trillion $ bailout of Wall Street. I've read the expert opinions about how the whole economy could crash without the bailout. I've read the sunny optimistic reports about how the federal government could even turn a profit on ventures such as the AIG loan.

But what kind of government is this, where the fed controls and partially owns major players in the economy? At what cost, financial and otherwise, are we the taxpayers doing this? Is anyone else just a tad ticked off that the Wall Street fat cats aren't going to suffer personal losses?

Anybody else trying to sort through all this and figure out what it means?

I don't think we can know yet, what it means. Other than another step down the road to socialism.

As for sorting through it - the Democrats and the media are doing their best to cloud the historical record. A lot of them have latched on to the repeal of Glass-Steagall as the boogeyman. Which is nonsense.

There are some individual culprits in Congress, mostly Democrats, but aided and abetted by some Republicans.

For a bigger, overall culprit, I"d argue that in the area of housing, in particular, for decades we've had a mix of public and private enterprise and that we'd have been better off to embrace one or the other totally. The mix has given us the worst of both. Privatizing the gains and socializing the losses.

 

[kydisneyfans]

With oil jumping $15.00 in one day, the American consumer is the one that needs the bailout. You cannot tell me that a financial bailout is enough to make a commodity rise over 25% in 3 days of trading.

I think AIG failing and lower gas prices for Americans would stimulate the economy more, but I am likely wrong. I still say to this day that the gas prices are the root of the US financial problems.

 

[corndog]

As for sorting through it - the Democrats and the media are doing their best to cloud the historical record. A lot of them have latched on to the repeal of Glass-Steagall as the boogeyman. Which is nonsense.

The left has been very successful in furthering the notion that this trouble has been caused by deregulation, when in fact it is overregulation that is the culprit. The Republicans are too scared to try to refute the lies because they think they need to look like they're "doing something." Even if that something is going to cause much more damage and turmoil in the long run.

 

[Fizzgig]

Interesting how bsnyder blames Democrats, and yet Bush and Paulson are Republicans. Bush and Paulson proposed the "Socialist" bailout. Paulson used to work for Goldman Sachs before Bush appointed Paulson to the Treasury.

I'm pretty dang mad at this moment. $700 billon means whoever the next President is, they have nothing to work with. Each US citizen just got handed a $2,300 check to pay, and we didn't even get to go to the party. Heck, even McCain got $2 million from these companies for his campaign coffers.

And the banks that didn't play fast and loose with their money just got penalized for being conservative. The 5 investment firms that were exempted SPECIFICALLY from regulation are now GONE or are now "holding banks."

But hey, it must be because the Dems control Congress, huh, Bet? Nevermind that 49-2-49 control of Senate... It's the EVIL DEMS that gave the American people this bill.

 

[Piglets Mommy]

I am confused and frustrated by this bailout. I wish we as Americans could have a say in this. Many small business owners have had to close their businesses...the government was not there to bail them out and forgive their "bad debt". Many individuals are cashing in their retirement funds in order to stay afloat. Yes, many people have made bad financial choices...I just don't see whay these Huge corporations get a "bailout" paid for by those of us who are already struggling.

 

[DisneyTN]

It took mistakes by Republicans and Democrats to get us into this mess we are in now. It's going to take Republicans and Democrats working together to get us back to where this country should be. And I am an avid Democratic supporter, but will still admit that our party has its share of blame too; just like the Republicans have.
Rather than pointing fingers at one another, let's focus on how to climb out of this hole we are currently in.

 

[MyManGoofy!]

The left has been very successful in furthering the notion that this trouble has been caused by deregulation, when in fact it is overregulation that is the culprit. The Republicans are too scared to try to refute the lies because they think they need to look like they're "doing something." Even if that something is going to cause much more damage and turmoil in the long run.

Can you expound on your theory? How has over-regulation caused this situation?

Not trying to "gotcha" - I am really interested in your response.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

It took mistakes by Republicans and Democrats to get us into this mess we are in now. It's going to take Republicans and Democrats working together to get us back to where this country should be. And I am an avid Democratic supporter, but will still admit that our party has its share of blame too; just like the Republicans have.
Rather than pointing fingers at one another, let's focus on how to climb out of this hole we are currently in.

That's kind of what I'm getting at. I won't even mention that Paulson is a Democrat because that doesn't really matter right now to me.

I really am trying to avoid being too dramatic about this bailout, but I'm scratching my head wondering if this is what a democratic society does.

 

[brerrabbit]

I am really trying to step back and take a bigger view of the whole situation and not jump to conclusions and acuse one act, or repeal of a law or enactment of a law.

I look at the overall situation as this. We live in the greatest country in the world and enjoy freedoms that no other country does. We have forgotten where we came from and how large the price paid was to get here. We have come to believe as a nation that every person has a right to own a home, whether they have the means or income to afford one. We believe that an investment should always go up and never down. We believe that every person should have the right to a cell phone, cable tv, a new car every four years, and wonderful vacations twice a year. We want to dine in the best resturaunts, wear the best clothes and have everything we ever wanted. We have been assured by advertisers, credit card companies and every other shill trying to sell us something that we can have it all.

We no longer talk about hard work, dedication, sacrifice, and saving up for the things we want. Case in point; a new bigger better cell phone comes out every month and consumers crave the product and have to have it no matter what the cost. i-phones created lines around the block at stores because everyone had to have one.

This mentality has lead us to elect politicians who play on our desires (both Dems and Repubs) that will allow us to have these things. They push mortgage lenders to do anything to get people in homes, no matter what it takes. The allow creditors to extend credit cards and financing vehicles that people cannot afford. Then we as a nation fail to educate people about financial matters and make them understand what people really can afford.

When I was growing up my Father made a financial mistake even before I was born, and before he married my Mother that he paid for the rest of his life. He never owned a home and we rented my entire life until I graduated from college saved my money and bought my own home. Back then a lot of peopl rented and if you did buy a home, you bought one you could afford and the denial rate for loans were much higher than today.

Today we live in a world of you can have anything you want, just sign for it, we can overextend ourselves in a heartbeat and no one will stop you until the pressure keeps you from sleeping at night and we just can't go on anymore.

Blame who ever you want but in the end as you point at someone remember that three fingers are pointing back at yourself and for all intense purposes all of your fellow countrymen.

 

[Cindyluwho]

With oil jumping $15.00 in one day, the American consumer is the one that needs the bailout. You cannot tell me that a financial bailout is enough to make a commodity rise over 25% in 3 days of trading.

I think AIG failing and lower gas prices for Americans would stimulate the economy more, but I am likely wrong. I still say to this day that the gas prices are the root of the US financial problems.

That's interesting that you'd say that. Just the other day a friend told me that one of the main reasons for prohibition in the US was to force farmers, etc to buy gasoline instead of using homemade ethenol. After doing some research that seems to be true. The oil industry has a stanglehold on America and the world, it seems. And I don't see that changing anytime soon because they have too much power.

 

[Fizzgig]

That's kind of what I'm getting at. I won't even mention that Paulson is a Democrat because that doesn't really matter right now to me.

I really am trying to avoid being too dramatic about this bailout, but I'm scratching my head wondering if this is what a democratic society does.

Actually, he's listed as a Republican, and was appointed by a Republican President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Paulson

But maybe Wiki was wrong... He DOES disagree with Bush that global warming is man-made and he has given money to the Nature Conservancy. Giving money to take care of the planet gets you thrown out of the Republican Party, right?

 

[brerrabbit]

Do some research and understand this plain and simple fact. Big Oil does not control prices! 70% of the worlds oil is controlled by Nationalized Oil companies! In other words Venezuala, the Saudi's, Oman, Libya etc owns the oil. Oil companies do not set the prices, the market does.

One of the reasons oil is going up is because all oil transactions are done in US dollars and as this financial crisis news hits the streets the value of the dollar drops and oil goes up. As the euro, yen, pound etc. goes up vs the dollar oil is not costing the rest of the world more money, just the US.

 

[Quiksilvr]

I think brerrabbit is on to something.

I'll point out that there is more to the economic problems than gas prices. Gas prices are simply what affect the common American most regularly and most visibly. Gas prices have contributed to higher prices on most other commodities and goods. Still, gas prices have nothing to do with Americans borrowing more money than they can afford to repay or buy houses that they could never afford. The financial institutions are having problems because of their bad lending standards and decisions, not because you're paying another dollar for a gallon of gas.

America has become a nation of consumers rather than savers. The credit crisis was caused partially by Americans who took the easy credit and bought stuff with it that they couldn't afford. The advertising media have exacerbated this by making everyone think that they have a right to all of the stuff they can pull off the shelves. Let's face it, we can't all be as rich as the CEO of a major public company and we don't all have the right to live like one.

I don't want to come off as too preachy, and as I've admitted elsewhere I do make a lot of money and I'm not struggling the way a lot of Americans are, but I grew up in a middle-class household so I know what it's like to not have all of the things you want or need. I know, it sucks to be a "have-not". But that doesn't mean the "haves" are evil.

The Average Joe who went out and borrowed more than he could afford to buy a house in the 'burbs contributed in his own special way to the crisis we're in now. Perhaps not to the magnitude as those who made the credit available, but he still signed on the dotted line.

 

[Cindyluwho]

Do some research and understand this plain and simple fact. Big Oil does not control prices! 70% of the worlds oil is controlled by Nationalized Oil companies! In other words Venezuala, the Saudi's, Oman, Libya etc owns the oil. Oil companies do not set the prices, the market does.

One of the reasons oil is going up is because all oil transactions are done in US dollars and as this financial crisis news hits the streets the value of the dollar drops and oil goes up. As the euro, yen, pound etc. goes up vs the dollar oil is not costing the rest of the world more money, just the US.

That's all good and fine but also understand that OUR government forced the american public to use gasoline in their cars and tractors by prohibiting the home distillation of ethanol. Before prohibition folks could just brew up their own fuel for their autos, etc.

 

[Quiksilvr]

That's all good and fine but also understand that OUR government forced the american public to use gasoline in their cars and tractors by prohibiting the home distillation of ethanol. Before prohibition folks could just brew up their own fuel for their autos, etc.

That whole thing is hilarious considering the subsidies the government now pays to farmers to grow corn for ethanol and for the prohibition on importing ethanol from other countries. Oh, well. Washington needs Iowa's votes.

 

[Fizzgig]

That whole thing is hilarious considering the subsidies the government now pays to farmers to grow corn for ethanol and for the prohibition on importing ethanol from other countries. Oh, well. Washington needs Iowa's votes.

Colorado also has a ballot initiative this year to repeal the $234 million in gas company subsidies the state pays.

Coloradans get two-thirds of our gas from in-state facilities.

 

[kydisneyfans]

I think that gas prices are definitely intertwined with the financial crisis.

If homeowner A bought a house at the upper end of his affordability range, then his fuel costs double in a year and food rises 25% in the same time frame, then that homeowner can no longer afford that home, defaults, and the bank eats it. After this happens too many times, there will be a glut of bank owned homes on the market that nobody can sell, with a worth less than what is owed. Repeat this over and over and we have a crisis.

The next step is the loss of jobs due to fuel costs. Construction is way down, tourism has dried up, businesses are struggling. Those without jobs due to fuel costs then do not pay their bills, whether it is credit cards, mortgages, etc. This is happening nationwide.

The fault lies everywhere, from banks making risky loans to the public not making educated decisions regarding their finances. The one constant though is that energy companies continue to grow profits while fuel consumption drops and the business climate around them deteriorates.

There is too much money in the hands of too few people anymore.

If gas were to drop back to 2.00, the household budget would get a huge break, families would eat out more, travel more, construction would resume, jobs would be replaced and the economy would turn around quicker than it took me to type this response.

 

[madge]

If gas were to drop back to 2.00, the household budget would get a huge break, families would eat out more, travel more, construction would resume, jobs would be replaced and the economy would turn around quicker than it took me to type this response.

I was just telling someone the other day if we can somehow manage to keep the price of milk and gas below $3/gallon, it would stimulate morale and people's bottom line. I know it won't get us (the country, not us .. meaning me) out of the jam we're in .. but it would be something.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Actually, he's listed as a Republican, and was appointed by a Republican President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Paulson

But maybe Wiki was wrong... He DOES disagree with Bush that global warming is man-made and he has given money to the Nature Conservancy. Giving money to take care of the planet gets you thrown out of the Republican Party, right?

I stand corrected. I still say it doesn't matter though.